Physics thread

[VBR]

I was just abit curious as I have driven cars with power steering and ones without, will there be a difference with cars that has power steering to the cars that has not?

Also when a car is stationary the front wheels are much harder to turn for example than when you are moving. Will those features of a car be replicated in pCARS?

@LogiForce - I was gonna ask the exact same thing, especially the second question.

 

[DG_Silva]

I was just abit curious as I have driven cars with power steering and ones without, will there be a difference with cars that has power steering to the cars that has not?

Also when a car is stationary the front wheels are much harder to turn for example than when you are moving. Will those features of a car be replicated in pCARS?

Yes, it is harder to turn cars that don't have power steering, the Caterham Classic and the Formula Rookie are perfect examples of this. As Logiforce had explained, most wheels (especially mine, the DFGT) does not have enough torque to accurately model the weight of steering forces, but it is enough to show the difference between power-assisted and non-assisted steering, especially when it comes to steering when fully loaded; trying to turn after the first corner at Brands Hatch for example, requires beefy arms.

I have a question regarding brake fade - is it simulated in Project Cars? I realise that most cars in the game are ones that probably have really good brakes and don't suffer badly from fade, but for example, the Evo, assuming it has standard brakes (including pads), would probably start to suffer from fairly bad brake fade after being pushed hard for a few laps.

I don't know if it has been implemented yet (I think it has on a few cars, like tha Formula A and the RUF RGT-8), but yes, the game will model brake fade, with proper fade rates calculated into the simulation dependant on what the discs are made of. This will also tie into the heat simulation, which measures the heat generated in the brake well (the area between the inside of the wheel and the outside of the disc) and the radiation of that heat into the tyre carcass.

 

[MaDHaX]

Yes, it is harder to turn cars that don't have power steering, the Caterham Classic and the Formula Rookie are perfect examples of this. As Logiforce had explained, most wheels (especially mine, the DFGT) does not have enough torque to accurately model the weight of steering forces, but it is enough to show the difference between power-assisted and non-assisted steering, especially when it comes to steering when fully loaded; trying to turn after the first corner at Brands Hatch for example, requires beefy arms.

Ok time for me to stop reading through pCARS now, I need to forget about this game so that the release date suddenly happens. Otherwise I would probably go and pester SMS which coincidently work just 5 minutes away from me.

This is great news, but now I hate you for it...lol

I want to drive in pCARS so badly now.......

 

[fatkrakr]

Go to the studio introduce yourself and ask for a test drive. Show them this and they should let you right in.

 

[LogiForce]

If this game feels anything like iRacing then i'm sure it will do very well indeed, because iRacing to me feels like one of the best sim racing titles out there at the moment.

I just wish I could test it out myself but I don't think it will be that long of a wait until we see the full release now. And if what you say is accurate and there isn't going to be any difference in the physics across all platforms then Turn 10 and Polyphony Digital has alot to be worried about as they have let down alot of fans and general people alike.

One thing about console that could be a problem but we will see in pCARS, is the ability to configure wheel FFB (such as damper and spring settings) and the degree of the wheel. If SMS can do that on the consoles then that will put them at an advantage IMHO.

*EDIT*

One quick edit.

I was just abit curious as I have driven cars with power steering and ones without, will there be a difference with cars that has power steering to the cars that has not?

Also when a car is stationary the front wheels are much harder to turn for example than when you are moving. Will those features of a car be replicated in pCARS?

Yes, there is definitely a difference you can feel. You can even feel quite the difference in power steering racks even. The BMW 1M has a much heavier feeling power steering rack than the RUF CTR3 power steering rack. A car without power steering, like the Caterham Seven Classic, feels different yet again.

This stationary feel falls out of the tyre model Physics. So it is not just replicated, it is properly simulated (i.e. It is not a fake effect). Well, there is one fake effect that does the same and is used as default still because of oscillation issues we had, as the devs were still trying to learn how to balance the new tyre model properly. Currently some of us are voicing to switch that off again as the oscillation thing is something of the past.

I have a question regarding brake fade - is it simulated in Project Cars? I realise that most cars in the game are ones that probably have really good brakes and don't suffer badly from fade, but for example, the Evo, assuming it has standard brakes (including pads), would probably start to suffer from fairly bad brake fade after being pushed hard for a few laps.

The latest brake fade tech has been added to all cars in pCARS since the last few weeks. Maybe it might require an additional tweak to polish it out, but it is quite a significant improvement.
I haven't driven the Evo in a long time though. So I can't tell you anything about the current handling characteristics.

 

[LVracerGT]

I remember GTR2 brake fade could get quite bad if you didn't do enough testing to ensure your brakes weren't overheating an opened the brake ducts far enough. Likewise if you opened them too far and the brakes weren't operating at the optimal temperature you couldn't brake as deep as the guys who were hitting the right temperatures.

Just thinking back to this makes me miss PC sims so bad, Gran Turismo just doesn't cut it anymore. I used to love testing in GTR2 for my league races. I actually had to use the Motec i2 Pro software to capture all of my telemetry and make adjustments.

Back on topic, the different feeling through the FFB in the different cars sounds like it could be a huge game changer. I don't think anyone has modeled that in any sim. It will really make going from car to car that much more special and unique, IMO.

I think I might have to take @MaDHaX advice and stop paying so much attention to this I wish I still had a gaming PC so I could get back into GTR2 and iRacing until this launches on PS4.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

So many comments of pCARS causing problems for the GT and Forza series. I don't see it that way, I don't have just one racing game (many on PC, PS3, and 360/One) and each has their strengths and focus. pCARS will be a welcome addition (will buy for the PC) but I will still race/buy others.

 

[arthur666]

So many comments of pCARS causing problems for the GT and Forza series. I don't see it that way, I don't have just one racing game (many on PC, PS3, and 360/One) and each has their strengths and focus. pCARS will be a welcome addition (will buy for the PC) but I will still race/buy others.

Personally, I'm rooting for Gran Turismo. I want it to be the best. I want it to have the best feel and realistic physics to go along with the huge car and track set. And I really like the "win $, buy and collect cars, buy upgrades" formula. Maybe the competition will light a fire under PD's chair and GT7 will force me to finally buy a console. Their budget has to dwarf all PC sims' combined.

 

[VBR]

So many comments of pCARS causing problems for the GT and Forza series. I don't see it that way, I don't have just one racing game (many on PC, PS3, and 360/One) and each has their strengths and focus. pCARS will be a welcome addition (will buy for the PC) but I will still race/buy others.

I do own just one racing sim (which is GT at the moment), as it's too confusing for me to switch between different physics models & remain on the top of my performance. If P-Cars delivers, I will more than likely ditch GT for it. Also, some people might not be able to afford both, some folk are poor you know!

 

[MaDHaX]

I do own just one racing sim (which is GT at the moment), as it's too confusing for me to switch between different physics models & remain on the top of my performance. If P-Cars delivers, I will more than likely ditch GT for it. Also, some people might not be able to afford both, some folk are poor you know!

I was in that position over a year ago, then I thought to myself enough is enough. I need more realism, so I saved and built myself a low end PC which I have now upgraded to a better CPU and GPU.

Thing is about PC's is you could build a low end PC at the cost of buying a PS4 and then upgrade it over time, that's what I did. And to be honest I'm much happier on PC sim's than GT5 or 6.

Buying a PS4 is going to be a risky move because we really dont know what PD will give us. Judging by 5 & 6 though, I wouldn't be holding my breath for the improvements we would all like to see but then again who knows PD might surprise us.

Plus on PC we are really spoilt for choice with customization and choice of sim's.

 

[Wolfe]

For all this talk of force feedback and gritty details, I hope Project CARS also nails the foundation beneath it all. Things like brake fade, volumetric throttle response, and advanced FFB are great, but it's all kind of pointless if fundamental handling dynamics don't play out as they should.

Understeer is relatively well-covered, but too many simulation games fall apart on the oversteer end. Some games either fail to make oversteer a liability on corner entry (Forza Motorsport 4), or go kind of overboard on that (mid-engined cars in GT5). After you exceed a certain rear slip angle, it could end in draconian snap-overcorrection (Gran Turismo 4), or failure to correct in spite of countersteer (any ISImotor game I've tried).

Some of this has to do with the tire model -- and I know SMS hopes to address that -- but the tire model isn't everything. I'm not much of a programmer, but in some games, it's as if the chassis is subjected to the whims of tire algorithms that occasionally overlook the mass of all that metal up there, or spit out odd behaviors. Things tend to get a little sketchy when it comes to rotation (and roll/pitch).

What do you think, @LogiForce? It's still early yet, but as long as we're talking about physics I would appreciate it if you could compare your experience with that of Live for Speed, not only for its tire model but also the way it simulates mass/momentum upon an axis. I have not played iRacing, rFactor 2, or Assetto Corsa; from my experience LFS remains #1.

 

[LogiForce]

Dear me... that's some old Physics there, @Wolfe. I have not played LFS in a darn long time, so I can't really compare. I might have a go at it a bit later today though and get back to you, maybe with a video of me (fail) drifting the BMW 1M. I am sure that would give you an idea of dynamics and how momentum is kept.

For now I will leave you with this interesting read, because our tyre model is not far from it but is more complex. Just keep in mind that tyre models are one thing, but you also need to model surfaces correctly with the right properties for the tyre to react upon.

http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt1.htm

 

[VBR]

@LogiForce - Regarding FFB wheels; are all wheels going to be compatible with P Cars on PS4? Or are they going to go down the same disastrous greed-fueled route as FM5 & force us to buy new a wheel?

 

[DG_Silva]

SMS, I'm sure, will support all wheels possible, but their main focus is going to be with the Thrustmaster T500. Because SMS have no publishers to please, they can do what they want; they know what has pissed people off in the past, and they are determined not to repeat those mistakes again.

 

[Wolfe]

@LogiForce -- I've just been hyping myself up on this game quite a bit lately, and I don't want to be let down like I have been in the past. Some of the videos around the 'net are less than impressive, and I recently revisited Shift 2 Unleashed, which was a mistake. So I thought I'd ask you, because you've mentioned that you played LFS, my gold standard for sims, and you have a good grasp of explaining the details (as in this thread). 👍

In hindsight, I wish I had bought access to pCARS when I had the chance. Although my PC is likely incapable of comfortably running a full race, I could at least do my part to push the physics engine out of its comfort zone and report back accordingly. I'll have to trust that you guys in the WMD community are giving the game a workout rather than just enjoying yourselves.

 

[LogiForce]

@LogiForce - Regarding FFB wheels; are all wheels going to be compatible with P Cars on PS4? Or are they going to go down the same disastrous greed-fueled route as FM5 & force us to buy new a wheel?

As DG_Silva said, SMS will support what they can.

Just to correct you on something. It is NOT Turn10 or Polyphony Digital that dictate console hardware interaction, but Microsoft and Sony. They are the ones to blame when it comes to compatibility.

Than comes the fact that drivers have to be made by the wheel manufacturers for the new consoles. Just like you need different drivers for your device when you run Windows 7 or Windows 8(.1). In this case Fanatec isn't the fastest and has always ridden on the Logitech drivers in the past, but Logitech has pulled out of the console market completely. So that only leaves Thrustmaster until Fanatec finally comes with something and have coded their own drivers.

Now the last step is for game developers to ask wheel manufacturers (or visa versa manufacturer asks game dev) to include the drivers (or SDK) for the wheel hardware into the game. Cause on console each game needs to include their own drivers to be able to support that piece of hardware.

So most likely wheel support will boil down to a few options only in the beginning. Now since SMS doesn't need to get the assignment from a publisher to make updates, they can now make updates for their game as much as they want adding any wheel they want along the way.
Which wheels are going to be supported, I have no clue as I personally am not interested in this generation of crappy consoles at all.


I hope that clears things up a bit?

@LogiForce -- I've just been hyping myself up on this game quite a bit lately, and I don't want to be let down like I have been in the past. Some of the videos around the 'net are less than impressive, and I recently revisited Shift 2 Unleashed, which was a mistake. So I thought I'd ask you, because you've mentioned that you played LFS, my gold standard for sims, and you have a good grasp of explaining the details (as in this thread). 👍

In hindsight, I wish I had bought access to pCARS when I had the chance. Although my PC is likely incapable of comfortably running a full race, I could at least do my part to push the physics engine out of its comfort zone and report back accordingly. I'll have to trust that you guys in the WMD community are giving the game a workout rather than just enjoying yourselves.

I will revisit LFS after dinner, Wolfe.
Also I do not know what videos you have watched, so it could be that you have watched movies where there were still bugs, typos and other issues present. So try to watch the latest stuff at least. We are now at build 686 and each working day the build number should go up by 1.

We are driving the devs nuts, Wolfe. Don't worry about it.
You'd be surprised that it might be hard to push the Physics out of its comfort zone though. Currently I am focusing on low speed behaviour myself, which is more important than one would think.

 

[VBR]

Just to correct you on something. It is NOT Turn10 or Polyphony Digital that dictate console hardware interaction, but Microsoft and Sony. They are the ones to blame when it comes to compatibility.

Oh, I thought it was up to the game developers what wheels were supported, & that the drivers were included in the game itself.

I have a Logitech G25, which is still going strong after 5 years of use (looks like new too, it's well looked after), & I don't really wanna be buying another wheel as well as a new console, even if I could afford it.

 

[LogiForce]

Oh, I thought it was up to the game developers what wheels were supported, & that the drivers were included in the game itself.

I have a Logitech G25, which is still going strong after 5 years of use (looks like new too, it's well looked after), & I don't really wanna be buying another wheel as well as a new console, even if I could afford it.

Yes and no. Like I said first the wheels need to have drivers for consoles and a license (and communication hardware in case of MS) from the console manufacturers. Than it is up to the game developer what to support, but they can only pick out of hardware that has been made compatible by the manufacturers.

Logitech G25 probably won't work on a PS4. Like I said, Logitech pulled out of the console market.

Links:
- http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ntinue-console-peripherals-to-focus-on-mobile
- http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-01-24-logitech-to-stop-production-of-console-accessories

And logitech self: http://news.logitech.com/press-release/corporate/logitech-announces-third-quarter-results-fy-2013

“We are taking immediate actions to shape a faster and more profitable Logitech,” continued Mr. Darrell. “We are developing more mobility-related products, leveraging the powerful growth of tablets and smartphones. We intend to sustain our leadership in PC platform-related products where we have engineering, distribution and scale advantages. Our goal with PC-platform products is to maximize profitability, while investing selectively in growing categories. We have also identified a number of product categories that no longer fit with our current strategic direction. As a result, we have initiated the process to divest our remote controls and digital video security categories, and we plan to discontinue other non-strategic products, such as speaker docks and console gaming peripherals, by the end of Calendar Year 2013.”

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

Yes and no. Like I said first the wheels need to have drivers for consoles and a license (and communication hardware in case of MS) from the console manufacturers. Than it is up to the game developer what to support, but they can only pick out of hardware that has been made compatible by the manufacturers.

Logitech G25 probably won't work on a PS4. Like I said, Logitech pulled out of the console market.

Links:
- http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ntinue-console-peripherals-to-focus-on-mobile
- http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-01-24-logitech-to-stop-production-of-console-accessories

And logitech self: http://news.logitech.com/press-release/corporate/logitech-announces-third-quarter-results-fy-2013

For discussion sake, how is the X1 wheel situation any different than the PS4. Everyone is pointing fingers at MS, but isn't Sony also to blame for the lack of support on the PS4. They changed the hardware, as MS did, and now previous generation wheels don't work (Logitech, Fanatec, etc.). Technically PS3 wheels "could" work on the PS4 if you believe Sony's explanation (up to the softw. devs), but so far both platforms are in the same boat. Sony's "spin" did wonders for the lack of compatibility as they are "perceived" to not have left gamers hanging like MS.

How many of you PS4 gamers are using a wheel? Just saying...

 

[LogiForce]

For discussion sake, how is the X1 wheel situation any different than the PS4. Everyone is pointing fingers at MS, but isn't Sony also to blame for the lack of support on the PS4. They changed the hardware, as MS did, and now previous generation wheels don't work (Logitech, Fanatec, etc.). Technically PS3 wheels "could" work on the PS4 if you believe Sony's explanation (up to the softw. devs), but so far both platforms are in the same boat. Sony's "spin" did wonders for the lack of compatibility as they are "perceived" to not have left gamers hanging like MS.

How many of you PS4 gamers are using a wheel? Just saying...

I have no current gen console, so I am not with the "PS4 gamers" group. So I am not using a wheel on a PS4 as I have no PS4.

I think you need to go back to my previous posts. I clearly said that both Microsoft and Sony were to blame.

In Sony's defense though. Sony went even to a complete new architecture. Which is exactly the same thing as when you buy a Microsoft Surface Tab (ARM based) or a Microsoft Surface Tab Pro (x86 based (like your PC)). On the first machine only software and hardware will work that is specifically programmed for that architecture, on the later PC stuff will work as it just simply runs Windows 8(.1). That last one simply enables you to grab your standard PC drivers and software.
So all the drivers for the IBM CELL based architecture and CELL specific XMB version (XMB is the PS3's operating system like Windows is for the PC) from the PS3 can go out the window, and now hardware manufacturers will have to make new drivers for the x64 architecture and the new XMB version. If Sony was running Windows or Linux the developers could easily use their existing drivers, but Sony has their own operating system for which you'll need to write drivers all over again.

On a separate note, Sony does keep using the standard HID device communication protocols. So hardware manufacturers do not have to buy expensive communication chips that can communication in Microsoft's XID device communication protocol.
This HID or XID makes the interaction between controller and console possible.

Microsoft already had XID communications with the 360, but supposedly they upped the version number and changed a few things. So now the system isn't backwards compatible anymore. It's almost like having to install the latest Windows to be able to use the latest Directx version.
If they had made the chip backwards compatible, which could have been done easily enough, than old 360 compatible wheels and joysticks would have been able to communicate with the XB1.
Well, communicate... but than we still need the drivers. Well, Microsoft didn't really change architecture. It just went from an Intel to an AMD processor. So the only thing hindering that would be the operating system.
Last thing is more of a 'uniform appearance' thing. On XB1 compatible hardware there should be an XB1 logo/push button and not a X360 one... etc.


So yeah, Sony due to their decision for going for the same architecture as a PC ended up forcing themselves and the hardware manufacturers to make new drivers for the system. Apart from that they are pretty loose in terms of demands on developers.
Microsoft on the other hand does make a lot of demands, and does design their hardware in such a way that there is no way you can use old hardware with the new console.

So yeah, in my humble opinion Microsoft is more to blame as they have made more hindering specific decisions than Sony did. Sony only changed architecture (and probably after many meetings and talks).

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

...
So yeah, Sony due to their decision for going for the same architecture as a PC ended up forcing themselves and the hardware manufacturers to make new drivers for the system. Apart from that they are pretty loose in terms of demands on developers.
Microsoft on the other hand does make a lot of demands, and does design their hardware in such a way that there is no way you can use old hardware with the new console.

So yeah, in my humble opinion Microsoft is more to blame as they have made more hindering specific decisions than Sony did. Sony only changed architecture (and probably after many meetings and talks).

Thanks for your take on the subject but I think "some" of this is assumptions. One assumption is that MS made more hindering decisions on purpose and Sony made more "un-hindering" decisions on purpose but in a nutshell both platforms cannot use previous generation peripherals. Proof is in the pudding, if PS4 racers can start using their PS3 wheels I may have to reconsider my opinion but as it stands I see no good guy/bad guy.

 

[mister dog]

Whatever it turns out to be in the end; I'm waiting with purchasing either a gaming pc or a next gen console until i know for sure what i can still do with my fanatec.

Like many here, i'm not going to throw a recent investment of hundreds of bucks in the garbage, just because a console manufacturer decides to make our wheels irrelevant for the sake of filling their own pockets.

 

[LogiForce]

Whatever it turns out to be in the end; I'm waiting with purchasing either a gaming pc or a next gen console until i know for sure what i can still do with my fanatec.

Like many here, i'm not going to throw a recent investment of hundreds of bucks in the garbage, just because a console manufacturer decides to make our wheels irrelevant for the sake of filling their own pockets.

Go the safe route and get a PC. It is the simulation platform of choice after all. Just look at all the titles to be played on there. Plus you will know for sure your wheel works on it and I can tell you for sure it is supported in pCARS.

 

[mister dog]

Go the safe route and get a PC. It is the simulation platform of choice after all. Just look at all the titles to be played on there. Plus you will know for sure your wheel works on it and I can tell you for sure it is supported in pCARS.

You're right, seeing I only play racing games I wouldn't miss out on much. Better than restricting myself to the limits of a console again.

So there's a very good chance that the next console I'll have in my living room, will be the one of my kids in a decade or so

 

[Punknoodle]

Unless GT7 is absolutely unreal, I don't think I'll be buying another console. Building a proper PC, and I don't think I'll look back.

 

[Wolfe]

I'm probably going to pass on the Sony/MS twins as well. Big respect to Slightly Mad for supporting the Wii U on what looks to be a superb racing title!

I will revisit LFS after dinner, Wolfe.
Also I do not know what videos you have watched, so it could be that you have watched movies where there were still bugs, typos and other issues present. So try to watch the latest stuff at least. We are now at build 686 and each working day the build number should go up by 1.

Naturally, the latest build is best, but it's not always listed and the video upload date doesn't necessarily tell you anything. In addition, cars/tracks are in different states, the player could have tuned the suspension poorly, etc.

I appreciate the feedback you've given us in this thread.

We are driving the devs nuts, Wolfe. Don't worry about it.
You'd be surprised that it might be hard to push the Physics out of its comfort zone though. Currently I am focusing on low speed behaviour myself, which is more important than one would think.

Low speed physics are very important, IMO. The first place any simulation is likely to stumble is in rapid directional changes and oversteer. Donuts, for example -- if they appear realistic, that doesn't necessarily tell you much (it can be "faked" by games like NFS), but if they're unnatural and awkward, it's a bad sign for one or more things (tire model, differential modelling, mass and kinetics). It's a good place to investigate.

 

[FuzzyFassbender]

Whatever it turns out to be in the end; I'm waiting with purchasing either a gaming pc or a next gen console until i know for sure what i can still do with my fanatec.

Like many here, i'm not going to throw a recent investment of hundreds of bucks in the garbage, just because a console manufacturer decides to make our wheels irrelevant for the sake of filling their own pockets.

I know it's can be disappointing especially if you just bought a new wheel but you don't have to throw anything in the garbage. I made the choice to sell my Fanatec CSR and Elite pedals on eBay, then ordered a Thrustmaster TX and still have $50 in my pocket. Granted I am not comparing apple to apples as far as the pedals go but the base unit is better than the CSR and I will replace the pedals (possibly the TX300) in the near future. The end result is maybe a little more out of pocket but surely not throwing anything away. I still want a wheel for PC (pCARS, AC, ...) and X1 (FM series, ...).

 

[LogiForce]

@Wolfe
I just drove in LFS and did drive the new stuff in pCARS as well.

I found a few key differences.

In LFS they have put some weight transfer feel (depends on the car how much) in the FFB, this I find clouds the FFB somewhat and makes you over-correct sometimes. This is not the case in pCARS, or at least not with all masks switched off.

When it comes to suspension, transfer of mass and kinetics. Technically both games do not differ here much. I might say that LFS is overdoing it a slight bit by comparison.

The biggest difference is currently in this stage of development that the tyres in LFS use far more adhesion than in pCARS, pCARS seems to be more on the deforming side of grip momentarily.
The way grip is generated by the tyres affects how the balance and weight is transferred by the car. So hopefully when we turn around things and going more towards adhesion grip (on some cars at least), things should fall into place and become more like LFS in terms of predictable handling.

Basically what it boils down to is that pCARS understeers far too much now, as they are basically running drag racer tyres (well not that dramatic) which also deform a lot and make the car go in a straight line.

 

[LeMansAid]

Thanks for your take on the subject but I think "some" of this is assumptions. One assumption is that MS made more hindering decisions on purpose and Sony made more "un-hindering" decisions on purpose but in a nutshell both platforms cannot use previous generation peripherals. Proof is in the pudding, if PS4 racers can start using their PS3 wheels I may have to reconsider my opinion but as it stands I see no good guy/bad guy.

One company made it 100% possible, the other, 0% possible. Effectively, Sony led a horse to water. Microsoft shot it in the head.

I don't expect to buy either console, and certainly not for sim racing. Really great that PCars will feature on both, and I hope it helps to push FM/GT to new heights, but I'll be using pc for it.

 

[Wolfe]

@LogiForce -- Thanks for taking the time to compare, that's just the sort of insight I was hoping for! If the whole kinetics/body/suspension side of things are good, I can trust that all the work you guys are investing into the tire model will be put to good use. And cars like the Gr.A M3 ought to be able to initiate the sort of corner entry oversteer I'll be expecting.

Who knows how far Scawen has gotten on his tire model project, but it sounds like the final tire model in pCARS will be a step above what LFS currently offers to the public. Not to mention the other things like atmospheric effects, that volumetric throttle response you described, and so on. LFS covers a number of details, but not quite so many, I think!

The way grip is generated by the tyres affects how the balance and weight is transferred by the car. So hopefully when we turn around things (which the devs are in the process of doing) and going more towards adhesion grip, things should fall into place and become more like LFS in terms of predictable handling.

This sounds very promising. I value that core element of predictable and intuitive reactions over the finer details, which is how I'm left playing a nine year old Playstation 2 game while arguably more sophisticated games in my collection, like FM4, collect dust. It's also how, on the PC sim side, I haven't moved beyond LFS for the times I set up my Logitech G25. None of the ISImotor games are quite good enough.

If the tires you guys are running now are characterized more by deformation, I suppose that's why cars appear "wiggly" sometimes.