Pirelli Tire Testing Controversy (Split from 2013 Monaco Thread)

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Marc Priestly also detailed what they could have potentially have learned at the test.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/06/04/what-could-mercedes-have-learned-from-their-secret-tyre-test/

Fact is that it's impossible to prove they gained anything but it's also impossible to prove they didn't. The other fact therefore is that Mercedes conducted an in-season test with a 2013 car and had the potential to gain an advantage.

That's against the rules so frankly I can only see one outcome, guilty. What the penalty will be we'll have to wait and see, a large fine seems most likely but other teams may want more given that it's a sporting rule breach.
 
Eddie Jordan mentioned that apparently the drivers used plain helmets.

I'm only going to re-state everything I just did, and if you want sources to back it up, then you'll have to find the introduction BBC coverage to the Canadian GP qualifying as that is where this very topic was discussed in some detail by Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard and Gary Anderson. All of whom were saying what I just said.

Maybe Merc hadn't tried the rear tyre swaps until Pirelli tried doing it in the test, I don't know. That was only an example of what can be done in a 1-to-1 test where you can try things.
Sure you can try things in a practice session. But a practice session is no where near 1000km and involves 10 other teams on track. And it doesn't include special 1-to-1 communication with a tyre manufacturer.

That's a hypothetical with the rear tire swapping, and it is much more safer to believe or inclined that they would try the swapping method early on due to the fact they had issue from the first round to now. Also who cares how many are on the track. The results that they get from being in a race simulation that practice provides is much more realistic than a open track with just a single car.

Also yet again they are not current tires so whatever 1-on-1 they got isn't going to help their current form, and it was obvious at Canada. It will probably become even more apparent when Silverstone hits.

I don't see any inconsistency in my saying "big or small" - it's a fact. You go testing and you might not find anything out. You might find a huge revelation or you might only find a few small tweaks.

Let me explain again then, the issue is you seem to think or feel that Merc GP have gained a big advantage through you writing. Yet later on you seem to step back from it by saying that you don't quite know which it is but an advantage either way is wrong. The latter I can agree with an advantage is an advantage, however I follow the line for the most part of if you don't have proof that says otherwise, then why state it with an implied feeling.

The point is the potential is there to find bigger and more effective fixes to your problems when you have extra testing and even more so when you have a track to yourself and a tyre manufacturer on hand who is getting directly involved in the testing.

If it is proven that more than future spec tires were tested, such as upgrades...which you still have yet to explain or hypothesis how they got them past the FIA, then I will agree with you. However, it hasn't and at this juncture for what has been said and come to light, I still only see fault in Pirelli more so than anything else. Also the point still stands what help could they gain from non-2013 spec tires, to current 2013 problems? The functionality is different, thus the problem fix is different if this was a test of current spec tires, I'd be on board with you. However, it still isn't and you've done nothing to show how an improvement can be gained from a situation that doesn't address the problem -2013 tires.

Anyway, whether Mercedes get penalised or not, its really about Pirelli. Pirelli have no contract for next year and pulling a stunt like this may well jeopardise that. Perhaps they can argue that they had to, in order to design better tyres but it puts a few people in a difficult position. Certainly the other 10 teams don't sound impressed. The problem is, is there any other tyre supplier willing to jump in? And if so, are they really going to get enough time?

Which I've already said, and it seems that other tire providers have been shut down. Hankook just rejected and unless Bridgestone feel they are getting the right price to come back I don't know who else will. Mich is doing big things in WEC, Goodyear has plenty of suppliers via all of Nascar and feeders. Who knows, but just like this we'll have to wait and see. We knew Bridgestone would be leaving June 2010 thus meaning deals and contracts were finalized and Pirelli were probably working on it early 2010. I agree with you that it would seem whoever comes after, wont have that same cushion.
 
Why do I believe they gained a significant advantage? Well because they went and won the very next GP? Its not proof of course and they've been threatening to win something this season, though certainly before Monaco it was looking highly unlikely. Also, Monaco's nature does play into it too, but still...

I'm not sure why you wonder if upgrades got past the FIA - they were supposedly meant to be using a 2011 car and were using a 2013 car. Something that seems to have surprised a few people and caused the FIA to call a tribunal. If the FIA knew everything to do with this test down to parts on the car, why are they calling a tribunal? Why in that case did the FIA let it go until the teams uproared?

On the same line, who is to say they didn't also test 2013 tyres? That in testing 2014 or new 2013 tyres, Pirelli gave tips or clues or suggestions to improve performance on the current tyres as a return favour? What if in setting up the car and testing with 2014 tyres, they found some things in the setup they might try with the current tyres?

I think that's a moot point though, the sticking point is that they did additional testing with their current car and drivers outside of the testing restrictions. The testing restrictions do not allow the teams to test their cars even with the wrong tyres on (apart from promotional days obviously). Certainly there are limitations in what you can learn with different tyres on, but there are still things you can test and learn despite that.

The amount of cars on track matters because the point I was making was a practice session is really nothing like testing. You only get two 90 minute sessions + 1 hour session which can and are disrupted by yellow and red flags, cars getting in the way and are not particularly "private" with plenty of team personnel and photographers around to take snaps or observe everything the team does.
1000km testing is a lot more than 4 hours of practice.
 
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Tribunal will be on June 20th.

Autosport
FIA sets date for International Tribunal hearing
By Jonathan Noble Monday, June 10th 2013, 14:56 GMT

The FIA has announced that the International Tribunal hearing into the recent Mercedes secret tyre test will be heard in Paris on June 20.

Motor racing's governing body said on Monday morning that charges had been brought against both Mercedes and Pirelli for the three-day test that took place in Barcelona in the week after the Spanish Grand Prix.

A statement said: "On 5 June 2013, further to protests lodged during the 2013 Monaco GP by Red Bull Racing and Ferrari Scuderia Team against cars #9 and 10 (Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team) for having conducted with Pirelli a three-day tyre testing using a 2013 car on 15, 16 and 17 May in Barcelona, the President of the FIA, acting as the FIA Prosecuting Body, sent to the President of the International Tribunal a notification of charges against Pirelli and a notification of charges against Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 team.

"On 5 June 2013, Pirelli and Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 team have been convened by the President of the International Tribunal to appear before a judging panel of the International Tribunal."

The hearing will begin at 9:30 on June 20 and the FIA said that a decision on the matter would be made as soon as possible after the hearing.

Although Mercedes' charges will be that they broke the Sporting Regulations by running a 2013 car, it is not clear on what grounds the FIA is taking proceedings against Pirelli - because it is not a competitor.

However, the matter may relate to the Italian company following the exact terms of the contract it has with the FIA to supply tyres in Formula 1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108026
 
1000km testing is a lot more than 4 hours of practice.

At first I figured Mercedes wasn't in violation of anything, but as more information has come out... that they actually used their active drivers as well as their current car, and that they told Pirelli they'd gotten the go-ahead from the FIA when the FIA claims nobody told them anything... it is starting to seem likely the team will be in hot doo of some sort after this.
 
Pirelli showing its teeth (not sure if this phrase makes sense in English, I'm translating a common portuguese way of saying that someone is showing signs of being willing to fight if needed).

http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/n...i-announces-compound-choices-up-to-hungary-2/

Notice that the "subtitle" is more impressive than the text. And that this is an official press release, published in their own site.

It's an english phrase as well, don't worry we know what it means and thanks for the link.
 
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The sport needs to be careful that it doesn't scare away other tyre companies with this mess. From their perspective, Pirelli were asked to do a certain job that they generally managed to work to. Some might see this as the teams (and the sport in general) being a little petulant.
Pirelli are getting quite the flack at the moment and they can easily walk away from the sport.
 
Mercedes say they have an e-mail from Charlie Whiting that granted permission for the test to go ahead:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/15/mercedes-pirelli-fia-hearing-test?

Yeah but what the FIA say and Charlie say are two different things, which if it is true and the email said go ahead, yet again as I said it is a structural flaw in the way regs are set up and written by the FIA. That is if the FIA are just as mad about this as teams, or are just doing this to appease teams like RBR.

Just like Lotus thought they could run the ride height aero parts planned only to have the FIA say no, though Charlie gave approval.

Either way I'm going to wait for the actual tribunal to start before I dive back into this, cause I rather have all the facts on the table instead of arguing hypothetical.
 
Just like Lotus thought they could run the ride height aero parts planned only to have the FIA say no, though Charlie gave approval.
Ah, but in that instance, Whiting approved of the device, and the other teams appealed to the FIA. When Lotus received the approval, they had no further need to question its legality. As far as they were concerned, the device was legal.

The same logic applies here: if Mercedes wrote to Whiting to enquire after the test and he approved of it, why do Mercedes suddenly have the burden of responsibility to approach the FIA and ask them, considering that Whiting is the FIA's technical delegate? The e-mail told them they could do it, so they did it. They had no further reason to question after the legality of the test, because Whiting said it was okay. So if they present this e-mail as evidence in their favour, then there is probably very little that the FIA can do in way of sanctions against the team.
 
Mercedes say they have an e-mail from Charlie Whiting that granted permission for the test to go ahead:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/15/mercedes-pirelli-fia-hearing-test?
If they had this get out of jail free card for real they would have printed out a 100 copies and handed them out Sunday morning in Monaco.There is no way that Mercedes takes 3 weeks of bad press and then all of a sudden finds a permission letter in Ross's 2nd hotmail account.

Maybe Charlie told them to wear the nondescript helmets too.:rolleyes:
 
Ah, but in that instance, Whiting approved of the device, and the other teams appealed to the FIA. When Lotus received the approval, they had no further need to question its legality. As far as they were concerned, the device was legal.

The same logic applies here: if Mercedes wrote to Whiting to enquire after the test and he approved of it, why do Mercedes suddenly have the burden of responsibility to approach the FIA and ask them, considering that Whiting is the FIA's technical delegate? The e-mail told them they could do it, so they did it. They had no further reason to question after the legality of the test, because Whiting said it was okay. So if they present this e-mail as evidence in their favour, then there is probably very little that the FIA can do in way of sanctions against the team.

Exactly why I agree with you here, because it seems to be a fundamental flaw in FIA regulations and trying to save face.
 
If they had this get out of jail free card for real they would have printed out a 100 copies and handed them out Sunday morning in Monaco.There is no way that Mercedes takes 3 weeks of bad press and then all of a sudden finds a permission letter in Ross's 2nd hotmail account.

Maybe Charlie told them to wear the nondescript helmets too.:rolleyes:

If you followed F1 and watch how Ross Brawn answer to the press each time, you might think otherwise. He always seemed confident of his right and act like he had something under his sleeve. The email might be the reason why he was so confident all the time. Or his a good actor. We'll see. No point in judging beforehand tho.
 
If you followed F1 and watch how Ross Brawn answer to the press each time, you might think otherwise. He always seemed confident of his right and act like he had something under his sleeve. The email might be the reason why he was so confident all the time. Or his a good actor. We'll see. No point in judging beforehand tho.

Exactly, hence why I'm trying to hold off arguing any further until all the facts as we know it are brought out hopefully by this tribunal.

However, baseless claims that are made by people that seem to have a chip on their shoulder about the entire thing -trial by media- before they even get to court, is becoming annoying.
 
If they had this get out of jail free card for real they would have printed out a 100 copies and handed them out Sunday morning in Monaco.
And what would that have done? Nothing. The other teams would still be upset over the test taking place at all.

There is no way that Mercedes takes 3 weeks of bad press and then all of a sudden finds a permission letter in Ross's 2nd hotmail account.
Mercedes knew early on that this would have gone to arbitration. And that is the most appropriate place for this letter to be shown.
 
So the tribunal is tomorrow and if your in the UK and have SkyF1 then Ted Kravitz will be there live at 10pm for an update and roundup..
 
How so? Ferrari are in the clear as they used a 2011 car.

FIA counsel Mark Howard says that although race director Charlie Whiting indicated to Mercedes team principal Ross Brawn that testing a 2013 car would be permissible, Whiting took advice from the FIA legal department, which said that it would only be allowed if all other teams were copied in on correspondence so they could indicate their agreement and had an equal opportunity to test.

'No attempt was made by Mercedes to involve the other teams in order to ensure that no perception of an advantage was obtained,' Howard says."
 
"Red Bull team boss and Christian Horner and chief engineer Paul Monaghan are both present as observers."

How very surprising...this has got FIX written all over it already...
bye Mercedes! See ya next year Lewis & Rosberg! 👎

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Oh and who's there at number #26...siding with the FIA...
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2011 car is still quite representative of 2013 but that is another point. Main point is FIA cleared Ferrari of doing a Pirelli Tyre Test without letting other teams know which seems to be the case from the outside (If it is not then point doesn't stand). FIA say Pirelli are not in breach of their contract and it is permissible as long as every team knows about it and agrees. Just seems they are making up arbitrary rules and contradicting them.

Hope Mercedes come out with no penalties from this. It should be up to Pirelli to let other teams know and going by what they have said, their intention was to keep it secret but as they have not breached their contract then it seems permissible for them to do what they did. It is a test done by them after all.
 
"Red Bull team boss and Christian Horner and chief engineer Paul Monaghan are both present as observers."

How very surprising...this has got FIX written all over it already...
I don't know why people seem to think the FIA will favour and are favouring Red Bull. Horner's presence is an observer. He's not going to be given the chance to speak.

Once again, you make wild accusations about something you clearly don't understand well enough to be able to comment on, much less make wild accusations an snap judgements about.

Oh and who's there at number #26...siding with the FIA...
Why are you surprised? Whiting is the FIA race director.
 
Horner's presence is an observer. He's not going to be given the chance to speak.

It would be easy to think otherwise, given that to the right of his name it says "Representative" rather than "Observer". Whilst not given an outright time to speak of his own accord, I would deem that to mean he could be asked questions as a representative of Red Bull.
 
Why are you surprised? Whiting is the FIA race director.

Because Whiting is the one who gave the green light to Mercedes and now he's with the prosecution? That makes perfect sense...

Why isn't Domenicali, Boullier or even Whitmarsh attending, if not as representatives but observers? Why does Horner even have to attend - this does not involve him in any way and yet, he's there sticking his nose in, giving quiet little whispered-deals to screw over a competitor. That gets my goat. :grumpy:
 
Because Whiting is the one who gave the green light to Mercedes and now he's with the prosecution? That makes perfect sense...
Again, you're demonstrating that you have no idea how these things work. There is no prosecution. The purpose of the tribunal is to give all of the parties present - the FIA, Mercedes and Pirelli - the opportunity to speak, with the tribunal committee listening to all of the arguments and deciding upon the appropriate outcome based on what everyone has said.

Why isn't Domenicali, Boullier or even Whitmarsh attending, if not as representatives but observers? Why does Horner even have to attend - this does not involve him in any way and yet, he's there sticking his nose in, giving quiet little whispered-deals to screw over a competitor. That gets my goat. :grumpy:
Because Domenicali, Boullier and Whitmarsh have chosen not to attend. It's not like Horner was invited when no-one else was. Each of the team prinicpals was give the choice to attend; whether or not they attend is their decision.
 
Again, you're demonstrating that you have no idea how these things work. There is no prosecution. The purpose of the tribunal is to give all of the parties present - the FIA, Mercedes and Pirelli - the opportunity to speak, with the tribunal committee listening to all of the arguments and deciding upon the appropriate outcome based on what everyone has said.

That's how it should work, but reality is very different. I'd love to hear your views on politics, just for a laugh :lol:


Because Domenicali, Boullier and Whitmarsh have chosen not to attend. It's not like Horner was invited when no-one else was. Each of the team prinicpals was give the choice to attend; whether or not they attend is their decision.
The fact that they haven't turned up is more damning to the one, ONE, team principal who did, who also seeks the most benefit if Mercedes are found guilty. Who would bat a eyelid if, say, Abiteboul, Booth or even Kaltenborn turned up?
Suspicious? Damn right.
 
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