Pirelli Tire Testing Controversy (Split from 2013 Monaco Thread)

[JGreens]

I'd think a ban might just get the public reaction the sport needs...after all falling ticket sales and audiences are generally being ignored, a total collapse might get Bernie looking at what the real problem is.

 

[R5]

http://bit.ly/10AIpSM


Via Sky Sports on Twitter

 

[niky]

How very... diplomatic of him. He can afford to be, at this point. He has what he wanted, protest successful. After hearing all of that, there's no doubt that MGP did commit a breach. How serious it is will be for the tribunal to decide.

I'd think a ban might just get the public reaction the sport needs...after all falling ticket sales and audiences are generally being ignored, a total collapse might get Bernie looking at what the real problem is.

Yes. Because fans hate to see teams get penalized for breaking the rules.[/sarcasm]

 

[R5]

Well, they only hate it if it is a team they like…

 

[Samus]

Well, they only hate it if it is a team they like…

Off topic but why do you keep using that ellipsis HTML entity? It doesn't work and surely it's easier to just type three dots...

 

[R5]

Off topic but why do you keep using that ellipsis HTML entity? It doesn't work and surely it's easier to just type three dots...

Force of habit. I broke my promise to stop a while ago

 

[hawkeye122]

The FIA seems to have settled on a punishment...

 

[Saidur_Ali]

It looks like Mercedes have a strong case, even if they get found guilty and get a severe punishment, I think they will be able to appeal it successfully. Hopefully judges do not impose penalties to Mercedes. If it gets to appeal stage, then I think FIA and Ferrari will have some serious explaining to do. Will not look good if FIA lose given they are a governing body.

 

[niky]

Nobody is protesting the recent Ferrari test, because that used a 2011 car, no explanation needed.

Given how good they're doing this year, people would be complaining if they could. So far, only Brawn has brought it up, in his defense.

 

[Endless-Wilso]

Indeed. I still think no matter what the outcome is for Pirelli they won't be in the sport next year.

From what i heard that would be impossable because no other company would be ready in time as a supplier for next year.


The best outcome i think would be to ban them from running in a free practice session for 1 or 2 events or for the mileage they cover'd in the test.

 

[niky]

To equal a thousand free miles/kilometers... they'd have to be banned from Friday practice for the rest of the season.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The best outcome i think would be to ban them from running in a free practice session for 1 or 2 events or for the mileage they cover'd in the test.

No, that's a compeltely ridiculous outcome. For one, there is no precedent or it. And secondly, testing and free practice are two completely different things. The entire purpose of the Barcelona testing was for Pirelli to get feedback on the early development of their 2014 tyres. Free practice is for the teams to attune the setup of a car to individual circuits, to run qualifying and race simulations in anticipation of the upcoming race. To deny Mercedes that opportunity as punishment for a compeltely separate episode would be like catching a team using traction control and telling them that their punishment is to start the next race in second gear.

 

[Samus]

From what i heard that would be impossable because no other company would be ready in time as a supplier for next year.


The best outcome i think would be to ban them from running in a free practice session for 1 or 2 events or for the mileage they cover'd in the test.

That would be the FIAs problem. If Pirelli want to walk they can and will.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That's how it should work, but reality is very different.

Except that you have nothing to support your theory that it will be different except for the theory that it will be different.

Who would bat a eyelid if, say, Abiteboul, Booth or even Kaltenborn turned up?
Suspicious? Damn right.

It's hardly proof that the FIA are going to favour Red Bull. All it demonstrates is that Red Bull are more interested in the outcome than anyone else. Possibly because everyone else knows that they'll hear about the verdict eventually, so why expend all that time and effort attending?

 

[JGreens]

Will not look good if FIA lose given they are a governing body.

I don't see how the FIA had any choice. One team lodged a complaint (For whatever reason) and they had to investigate, even if they didn't want to. The blame for this mess lies with the one team that complained.

It's hardly proof that the FIA are going to favour Red Bull. All it demonstrates is that Red Bull are more interested in the outcome than anyone else. Possibly because everyone else knows that they'll hear about the verdict eventually, so why expend all that time and effort attending?

Because people chit-chat during coffee breaks and evening meals. I'd bet my bottom dollar that Horner has at least once chatted with the judges.

 

[R5]

I don't see how the FIA had any choice. One team lodged a complaint (For whatever reason) and they had to investigate, even if they didn't want to. The blame for this mess lies with the one team that complained.

No. The blame lies, in reality, with the one team that tested tyres illegally. They've been in this game long enough to know how to run a damned tyre test.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Is every F1 thread on here going to be ruined by Red Bull conspiracy nonsense? Because it's getting rather tiresome.

If what is coming out is to be true, then Ferrari will get probably more flak soon than RBR.


Off topic a bit:
Seriously, I have to ask why JGreens is still allowed to RBR bash, without even a link to half attempted evidence after he got the 2013 Canadian GP thread closed due to the same things he is doing here. Some of us would like to carry an intellectual conversation.

 

[Samus]

How so? I don't believe there is any evidence Ferrari tested with a current car which is the crux of the Mercedes issue.

As for the other part just ignore him.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Because people chit-chat during coffee breaks and evening meals. I'd bet my bottom dollar that Horner has at least once chatted with the judges.

Do you even know who the chief judge is? He's best-known for arbitrating disputes in the Football Association. The entire point of the International Tribunal is that it is separate from the FIA so that it can properly judge issues involving the FIA (one of the biggest complaints of the Mosely years). One of the ways Jean Todt achieved that is by setting it up with people with experience in sports law who are completely removed from motorsport. So while Horner might have had a word with the judges, it's likely that everyone would have if they could have - and that the judges would have been unimpressed by Horner. They'd have no idea of who he was other than that he was tangentially related to the issue, and if he tried to lobby to them to favour his interests, they would have no reason to hear him out.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

How so? I don't believe there is any evidence Ferrari tested with a current car which is the crux of the Mercedes issue.

As for the other part just ignore him.

Have you read the articles today, there is more to it, if you are only going off what has been said prior to Thursday's tribunal, you might want to look into it. Also it is said that Felipe took part in the test before the race, which is a breach if the tribunal do punish MGP in part for Nico and Lewis. They went much further than 1000km, and just going off the technological stand points Ferrari still had the ability to gain even from a two year old car that is at most half a second slower than the current. Brawn obviously says this and Horner even states that any test yields some knowledge. It just depends on what side of RBR you agree with, RBR of 2012 Mugello test that say they aren't any worth; rather you believe the current line of reason which is "any test teaches you".

Yet Horner agrees that Ferrari's tests weren't right either, so RBR may push hence why I said what I said. I find it difficult to see how people can agree with RBR on the subject of MGP (though a contradiction), but not agree that Ferrari are in the wrong too. There are far more reasons than the current car being used that have people up in arms against MGP, and if people can't see that, they should step back and reassess their bias against MGP due to the media, and the media's grip on what is being said in general.

 

[JGreens]

Have you read the articles today, there is more to it, if you are only going off what has been said prior to Thursday's tribunal, you might want to look into it. Also it is said that Felipe took part in the test before the race, which is a breach if the tribunal do punish MGP in part for Nico and Lewis. They went much further than 1000km, and just going off the technological stand points Ferrari still had the ability to gain even from a two year old car that is at most half a second slower than the current. Brawn obviously says this and Horner even states that any test yields some knowledge. It just depends on what side of RBR you agree with, RBR of 2012 Mugello test that say they aren't any worth; rather you believe the current line of reason which is "any test teaches you".

Yet Horner agrees that Ferrari's tests weren't right either, so RBR may push hence why I said what I said. I find it difficult to see how people can agree with RBR on the subject of MGP (though a contradiction), but not agree that Ferrari are in the wrong too. There are far more reasons than the current car being used that have people up in arms against MGP, and if people can't see that, they should step back and reassess their bias again MGP due to the media, and the media's grip on what is being said in general.

EXACTLY what I've been saying. The test before the race is more severe than this "issue" the FIA opened. Can of worms. I wouldn't be surprised if Domenicali actually flew in today to start getting the other side of the story in as soon as possible.

 

[R5]

EXACTLY what I've been saying. The test before the race is more severe than this "issue" the FIA opened. Can of worms. I wouldn't be surprised if Domenicali actually flew in today to start getting the other side of the story in as soon as possible.

You haven't said any of that, you've also not provided any proof of anything and just said a load of old hat.

 

[JGreens]

You haven't said any of that, you've also not provided any proof of anything and just said a load of old hat.

Let's stick to the facts then.

Ross is claiming Ferrari have done in-season tests both in '11 & '12 (What good it did them - fecking up Nando's rightful title) would you care to reply Domenicali? Oh, wait, you're not there...

"Mercedes also revealed that Ferrari had another testing opportunity in 2012 with Pirelli, when Felipe Massa was used in its pre-Spanish Grand Prix test and that the team conducted more than 1000 kilometres."

I didn't say any of that, did I? Oh wait, I did, so shut it liar.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Okay, let's stop taking all of this as a series of personal attacks. Given legacyMACHINE the benefit of the doubt - maybe he just missed one or two of your posts. After all, you've overlooked posts in the past before.

He does, however, have a point - you're yet to prove anything you've said, be it the wild accusations that Christian Horner was at the hearing to somehow fix the outcome in his favour, through to proving that the secret Ferrari test actually happened.

If you can't be bothered to substantiate your claims, then don't make them. Especially if you respond so poorly the moment someone dares to question you.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Jon Noble ‏@NobleF1 14m
My sources indicate an announcement from the International Tribunal should be expected around lunchtime in Paris today - so in around 2h
Collapse Reply Retweet Favorite More

not a big wait then ...

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Nobody is protesting the recent Ferrari test, because that used a 2011 car, no explanation needed.

Given how good they're doing this year, people would be complaining if they could. So far, only Brawn has brought it up, in his defense.

Ferrari test being cleared by FIA will help Mercedes big time given FIA's case against Mercedes makes it seem what Ferrari did more illegal things than Mercedes.

FIA have said it is OK to do a Pirelli Tyre Test with a current car as long as agreement with other teams. This suggests that it is OK to breach sporting regulations as long as everyone agrees.

Ferrari managed to do in-season testing with a car that is quite representative but even if it is declared it is not, they still did testing which FIA say is banned. Even Pirelli's specific terms in amount of tyre testing they can do with teams they exceeded. Ferrari also arranged test and did their own private testing too, it was as hidden from public as Mercedes test was.

Current FIA's stance on Mercedes and Ferrari seems to be that it is OK to go testing with 2011 car on your own booked testing venue using Pirelli tyres and do literally unlimited testing and keeping it secret is OK. All because car is 2 years old, I am sure top teams will jump at that opportunity.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I don't think the issue is the car's age. Rather, the FIA seem to judge the legality of the car being used based on how different it is to the current car being used.

 

[JGreens]

He does, however, have a point - you're yet to prove anything you've said, be it the wild accusations that Christian Horner was at the hearing to somehow fix the outcome in his favour, through to proving that the secret Ferrari test actually happened.

If you can't be bothered to substantiate your claims, then don't make them. Especially if you respond so poorly the moment someone dares to question you.

How can I substantiate "my" claim, when it was only revealed yesterday by a different person? I simply posted what I heard by Ross. It's upto him to substantiate the claim made.

The other claim about Horner is clearly evident by the fact that not a single other team principal attended as observer or otherwise. That's a smoking gun as clear as day.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The other claim about Horner is clearly evident by the fact that not a single other team principal attended as observer or otherwise. That's a smoking gun as clear as day.

Have you ever heard of Ockham's Razor? It's a theory that suggests that when you are presented with two or more competing ideas, the one that requires less stretch of the imagination is more likely to be true. In this case, we have two theories:

1) That Christian Horner attended the hearing because he intended to use his position and his team's interest in a particular outcome to somehow sway the tribunal's decision.

and

2) That Christian Horner was the only team principal to attend because all of the other team principals knew that they would hear about the outcome of the tribunal one way or another, and so saw no need to attend.

So, take your tin foil hat off. It's blocking your ability to use common sense. There is no conspiracy.

 

[Samus]

He still thinks Horner was there to sway the judges and will manage to do so? If he's that good criminals around the world should start hiring him for their court appearances because apparently one chat over a cup of tea is all he needs to sway professional, impartial judges.