Pirelli Tire Testing Controversy (Split from 2013 Monaco Thread)

[prisonermonkeys]

What a joke, justice has not been served today.

Justice was never on the menu. The tribunal isn't about justice, because "justice" implies that a crime has been committed. The tribunal is intended to hear every side of the story and figure out exactly what happened, whether or not the rules were broken, and decide upon an appropriate sanction from there.

Either that or his conspiracy theories are nonsense....

Give him a minute. I'm sure he'll be in here telling us how Horner wanted Mercedes to escape without a penalty so that he could earn back the goodwill he burned up with the multiple technical investigations in 2012, thereby giving Red Bull more ability to influence the future technical regulations to favour his team. Or something.

 

[Peasantslayer]

I'm delighted with the decision, I was fearing much worse. Perhaps the FIA were easy on Mercedes because they wouldn't want to upset a team with such a large following who have on many occasions seemed to be close to pulling out of the sport.

 

[daan]

Once again, Ross Brawn finds a loophole in a grey area, even though the rules seemed to be black and white...

 

[Samus]

I'm delighted with the decision, I was fearing much worse. Perhaps the FIA were easy on Mercedes because they wouldn't want to upset a team with such a large following who have on many occasions seemed to be close to pulling out of the sport.

Like I said yesterday they certainly weren't going to give out any instant race bans considering the next two GPs locations. A constructors ban/points strip was probably as far as they would have gone but clearly they didn't.

One thing is for sure i'm certain this isn't the last we'll hear of it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Once again, Ross Brawn finds a loophole in a grey area, even though the rules seemed to be black and white...

The judges' statement makes it pretty clear that the rules were broken and an unfair advantage was gained from the test, but they believe that the test was carried out in good faith:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108181

 

[JGreens]

Hang on, weren't you just complaining that Christian Horner was there to unfairly sway the judges into giving him a result that favoured Red Bull?

I was. I'm glad they were as impartial as others have said.
However, for Horner there's always next time...

As I have said from the beginning, this was a witch-hunt from RBR that never should of been allowed to drag this long. It has clearly bought the sport into disrepute, negative media attention won't help the floundering ticket sales at Silverstone or attract potential manufacturers (Including tyre companies, since Pirelli won't up with this sort of behaviour for much longer).

 

[sems4arsenal]

Sucks for the young drivers though

 

[BHRxRacer]

What a joke, justice has not been served today.

You're right. Horner should've been charged with wasting people's money and time.

This was never going anywhere anyway, and it shouldn't have. I'm actually quite upset they even found Mercedes guilty. 2011 car or 2013 makes little to no difference if they don't know what tyres are using and not accessing telemetry, so they can't gain any worthwhile advantage.

Besides, judging by the way the Pirelli tyres change, 2013 car + 2014 tyres = not a "current" car. Right?

 

[R5]

Horner should be charged for raising his hand and telling the FIA to look into it? Really…? He never once asked for a tribunal, as I recall. It was the FIA who called for it.

 

[JGreens]

Horner should be charged for raising his hand and telling the FIA to look into it? Really…? He never once asked for a tribunal, as I recall. It was the FIA who called for it.

Read between the lines...
It was RBR who made the first official complaint. They know the procedures and rules. Simply using figurative speech doesn't excuse them from blame.

 

[Samus]

Mercedes are found guilty by an independent tribunal and somehow still Red Bull are the bad guys for querying it? I suppose other teams shouldn't have queried some of things they have about RB in the past few years either? lol F1 fans.

 

[Stotty]

Looks like Mercedes got away with it

Bit of a mess the FIA created - or at least Charile Whiting... plenty of egg on their faces.

 

[R5]

Read between the lines...
It was RBR who made the first official complaint. They know the procedures and rules. Simply using figurative speech doesn't excuse them from blame.

Right. So because RBR actually said "Hang on…" they're the bad guys, yes? But, imagine a parallel universe; where the two teams swapped places. You would bay for Horner's blood and Vettel's head on a spike and hail Braun as the man of the year for doing the exact same thing.

Hypocrisy as far as the eye can see…

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Martin Brundle twitter...'test gate' turned out to be a lot of hype about nothing. Suspect several teams would like to trade young driver test for a pre-race 3 day test'....hes got a point

 

[JGreens]

Right. So because RBR actually said "Hang on…" they're the bad guys, yes?

More than one way to enquire about legality than to make an official complaint.

But, imagine a parallel universe; where the two teams swapped places.

Impossible. Even caught, RB will still get away with it. Shall we rewind one year, to the floorboard-controversy in which the FIA eventually said "Yeah, it's illegal, but keep all the points"

You would bay for Horner's blood and Vettel's head on a spike.

I don't advocate blood or spiked heads, so stop putting words where they don't belong. I'd happily accept lifetime bans.

 

[R5]

More than one way to enquire about legality than to make an official complaint.

Impossible. Even caught, RB will still get away with it. Shall we rewind one year, to the floorboard-controversy in which the FIA eventually said "Yeah, it's illegal, but keep all the points"

I don't advocate blood or spiked heads, so stop putting words where they don't belong. I'd happily accept lifetime bans.

Name them.

But remember the outcry from the people who just dislike RBR as they're winning? And you're just proving my point. RBR are only the bad guys because of their success.

That's probably worse than the spikes and blood for them. Racing is their life, the same as painting is an artists life.

 

[Samus]

"Yeah, it's illegal, but keep all the points"

You mean the exact same thing they've done here?

 

[R5]

"Yeah, it's illegal, but keep all the points"

You mean the exact same thing they've done here?

That's a good point, actually.

Edit: got rid of ellipsis

 

[JGreens]

Name them.

Name who?

You mean the exact same thing they've done here?

Illegally modifying a car is the same as lending the car and drivers to another company?

 

[Hun200kmh]

I pity the poor young drivers that just lost a chance to show their worth. If the penalty is the loss of testing time, maybe a ban on all FP1 sessions to the end of this year would be more just. We could call it the "Bruno Senna" penalty

 

[TheBook]

I would have rather seen them disallowed to take part in the pre-season test at Catalunya next year than this year's young driver test, personally.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Predictably, the Horse Whisperer has published a column today. Not happy, not happy

http://formula1.ferrari.com/news/horse-whisperer-crime-punishment-but-light-one

 

[R5]

Name who?

Name the other ways in which you can ask about illegal tyre tests without complaining. As far as I know, the only way would be a "What if Mercedes, for example did this…" no matter what else, AMG would still be in the dock for the illegal test.

 

[niky]

Illegally modifying a car is the same as lending the car and drivers to another company?

The RBR was never found to be in breach of the rules. In fact, the FIA has changed several rules specifically to close loopholes exploited by RBR, like the front wing weight test, maximum camber settings, off-throttle engine mapping... For the past three years, the FIA has done its best to slow the RBR down by closing loopholes.

Exploiting a rule loophole which is then afterwards closed, as Brawn also did with the double diffusers and double DRS, is completely different from going completely against regulations prohibiting in-season testing of a current-spec car.

It's not just a lend-out. Brawn admitted his team managed to gather data from the tests. And their championship drivers, no less, got free practice and set-up mileage. If this was done with hired drivers, with no datalogging by Brawn, it would be nothing. Since it wasn't, Brawn got off very, very lightly.

Name who?

Cute. I suggest you answer the question. Name one way of inquiring about the legality of another team's action or car in Formula One that doesn't involve approaching the FIA.

And if you suggest: "Look it up in the rules", and they do, and they discover that the rules say it isn't allowed, what then? Keep mum about it because tattling is bad?

 

[JGreens]

The RBR was never found to be in breach of the rules. In fact, the FIA has changed several rules specifically to close loopholes exploited by RBR, like the front wing weight test, maximum camber settings, off-throttle engine mapping... For the past three years, the FIA has done its best to slow the RBR down by closing loopholes

You say loopholes, I say deliberate and malicious breach. They're only angry they got caught.
The FIA haven't been slowing down RBR, they're imposing the rules.

Name the other ways in which you can ask about illegal tyre tests without complaining.

Oh, a quiet word with Whiting in private or email correspondence, or other various non-documented whisperings at track weekends with relevant people.

Is it just me or has anyone actually been involved in like, the running of any team in any sport? I can't believe people are so blindly naive....

 

[niky]

Show us the deliberate and malicious breach, then. And the non-subjective, clear and precise regulations that RBR breached. RBR's floor slots were afoul of a rule that implied they were not allowed, but no rule explicitly stated they were not until the clarification.

http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2012/06/03/red-bull-floor-hole-legality/

May I remind you that Brawn, Ferrari and McLaren have similarly taken advantage of design loopholes in the past, loopholes which were then closed.

-

In other words, if someone is cheating... Don't make a stink?

I'd like to ask you the same. Have you been involved in running a team in any type of official league? Because in any professional, or even amateur leagues (my father was the president of a national level sports association, and used to manage our basketball team, and our school fields several Collegiate-level teams), all complaints and queries are made out in the open, in the interest of transparency. And unless they're made officially, governing bodies cannot act upon them. Thirty years' experience here hearing about league politics, backbiting and cheating. What's your background?

Instead, your solution is to resort to the same type of backdoor stuff you're accusing RBR of. So it's okay to complain if you do it in secret so no one can point fingers.

Yeah, that's honesty.

 

[R5]

Our good friend Greens can be summarised as this

"I don't like RBR. Lets blame them even when they're not even in the wrong by making malicious claims of cheating and saying Horner was there to fix the result of the tribunal but I still can't accept RBR is not the bad guy as I just refuse to look past my petty hatred of the team simply because they're currently the most successful guys over the past 3 years with the best car (circuits vary mind&hellip and the best drivers (Say what you like, it's undeniable that Seb is amazing at what he does) so I am just going to make ridiculous conspiracies on the Internet hoping someone will agree."

Accurate enough?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So can someone surmise why the ruling wasn't fair? As I stated before, I believe Pirelli and MGP that they were conducting a tire test and not going about being malicious or obfuscating the rules. The is echoed by the FIA also taking the blame and saying "Yeah we seemed to have given MGP a false impression along with Pirelli on what they could do". Now some people rather just read the ruling and not see it for being as the tribunal claim it to be. However, that cynicism is in the same hen house with that of JGreens and his animosity toward RBR.

 

[DemurgicDemon]

Our good friend Greens can be summarised as this

"I don't like RBR. Lets blame them even when they're not even in the wrong by making malicious claims of cheating and saying Horner was there to fix the result of the tribunal but I still can't accept RBR is not the bad guy as I just refuse to look past my petty hatred of the team simply because they're currently the most successful guys over the past 3 years with the best car (circuits vary mind&hellip and the best drivers (Say what you like, it's undeniable that Seb is amazing at what he does) so I am just going to make ridiculous conspiracies on the Internet hoping someone will agree."

Accurate enough?

You've hit the nail squarely on the head! 👍

 

[niky]

So can someone surmise why the ruling wasn't fair? As I stated before, I believe Pirelli and MGP that they were conducting a tire test and not going about being malicious or obfuscating the rules. The is echoed by the FIA also taking the blame and saying "Yeah we seemed to have given MGP a false impression along with Pirelli on what they could do". Now some people rather just read the ruling and not see it for being as the tribunal claim it to be. However, that cynicism is in the same hen house with that of JGreens and his animosity toward RBR.

As per the Tribunal findings, neither Pirelli nor Mercedes had properly followed up on the stipulations required for the test.

And Pirelli sent Mercedes an e-mail containing trackside engineering data. While they contend (and I agree) that this is of limited use, this is fully in violation of the rules.

Docking of championship points would have been too harsh, but I'm not sure that exclusion from the young drivers' test is harsh enough. I'd say the ruling is sort of fair. Sort of.

The Horse Whisperer post about non-punishment for various offenses by other teams is hilarious... considering they also got a non-punishment for the "Team Orders" incident.