PlayStation 4 General DiscussionPS4 

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bombe32
Honestly, if I thought a really good PC would be value for money I'd have gotten it a long time ago. Games might be cheaper, but for one PC it's like buying 10-15 PS3's and then you save like 15-25% per game. If you want value for money, you need to be spending big time :) That's why I feel okay with having a laptop for school work and minor games while the PS3 works as my primary entertainment at home.

But it's just a matter of preference, I guess. To get back on topic... let's wait until something's official before judging the PS4, or whatever they want to call it...

10-15 PCs? What kind of computer ate you building? The one I'm pricing out right now with monitor, GTX 680 and i5 is going to be right around $1700.

And you want to wait to talk about PS4 news when it's real? Your going to be waiting an awful long time for that. Rumors are all we have to talk and debate about and I don't see anything wrong with that.


http://m.tomshardware.com/news/PlayStation-Xbox-Radeon-APU-Orbis,15247.html

Sorry for mobile link but article saying graphics are going to be pretty much even between the 720 and PS4. 6670 or 7670 graphic cards (which are the same thing) and sell retail for less that $100...you'd think they'd go atleast one step higher than that...
 
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Your probably right. I'm leaving console gaming in almost exactly a year when I build my new computer. I see all these Steam sales on great games that my laptop just can't handle anymore and I'm forced into buying games for my Ps3 for much more. It's an expensive start up cost but I need a computer anyway and the $500+ I'd spend on a PS4 is going directly into the PC.

I think if anything the lack of used game support will strengthen pc gaming and maybe even bring down the cost of hardware.

There's no solid news on the next Playstation and already you've decided it's "too expensive", and you're going to build a gaming PC which will probably cost you three times as much? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, dude.

Hasn't anyone heard the saying about rumors; Trace it back to the source, and then laugh it off. So far the following rumors have been shot down;

  • Valve is building a console
  • Microsoft unveiling a console at this year's E3
  • Sony unveiling the PS4 at this year's E3

GameSpot, Kotaku, and the rest of their ilk are reporting these "rumors" as credible news because they know that gamers will scour the web for any scrap of information, and it will drive traffic to their sites. In doing so, they have apparently decided that none of it has to be credible. But they report it anyway, because they feel that the same journalistic standards don't apply to them as they would a REAL news source.

There was a rumor a few years ago that Elvis was alive, and many people believed it. Well, The King isn't coming over to my house for a fried peanut butter and banana sandwich, I'll tell you that much.
 
10-15 PCs? What kind of computer ate you building? The one I'm pricing out right now with monitor, GTX 680 and i5 is going to be right around $1700.

And you want to wait to talk about PS4 news when it's real? Your going to be waiting an awful long time for that. Rumors are all we have to talk and debate about and I don't see anything wrong with that.


http://m.tomshardware.com/news/PlayStation-Xbox-Radeon-APU-Orbis,15247.html

Sorry for mobile link but article saying graphics are going to be pretty much even between the 720 and PS4. 6670 or 7670 graphic cards (which are the same thing) and sell retail for less that $100...you'd think they'd go atleast one step higher than that...


You're 🤬 me? My first car didn't cost anywhere near that much money, and I paid less to go on vacation. :boggled:
 
CaptainHarlock
You're 🤬 me? My first car didn't cost anywhere near that much money, and I paid less to go on vacation. :boggled:

Oh I'm sorry am I spending your money?

I'll likely won't be building that for a year at which time I plan on moving out of my house. I need a computer so what's your average cost of a computer (I need a monitor too)? Let's say $700? Plus the cost of a PS4 in late 2013 I'd buy if I didn't make this PC for gaming is another $500-600. Well that's $1300 right there. Add in the fact that when I move out my girlfriend will have completed her architectural and design program and also need to the computer for AutoCAD and putting together larger scale projects as a part of her job so she'll also be contributing towards this. So yeah I guess to some it's a waste, makes sense to me.

Stay on topic...


The reason I brought up the PC in the first place is that with the the limited news released so far this console generation doesn't seem so promising. If they are restricting used games sales why not switch to a platform that offers cheaper games, a more diverse range of games, and better graphics? On top of the reasons to switch just for gaming I'll be using my computer to play Blu rays and steam content to my TV and I get one heck of a high performance computer which I use on my own quite a bit.

Oh and even if the console doesn't restrict used games sales I'm sure very shortly every game will have some sort of online pass which effectively eliminates the used game route. Even if the PS4 doesn't the games will. But hey if Sony can convince me that this isn't true and they price it right I may consider it... might. If they do convince me then I'll be spending $500-600 on a PS4 and $800-900 on a pc for all the other things I said I want my computer to do.

Still $1200-1500.... Hmmm then again maybe I won't be buying a PS4.
 
Please, it was like this same time last gen, and everything turned out fine for all parties involved. The gamers enjoyed a powerful console, the PS3, a mediocre console, the Xbox 360, and a cheap console, the Wii.

The only reason, let's be honest here, that we are even putting up with the PS4/720 debate is because the Wii ran out of juice to compete with the rest of this console generation. Sure, the Wii made their money for their Nintendo masters, but it didn't have any staying power in the long run to make a serious impact in the hardcore gamer market.
 
They should have a disk drive for the PS4 and make it backwards compatible with both PS2 and PS3 games. Just because it will be an evolution in technology doesn't automatically make it a great console.

Regarding the console's features: If it had backwards compatibility support for PS2 and PS3 games online that would increase playability for the console. The 'Orbis' needs backwards compatibility for sure, especially if the launch games get bad or mediocre reviews and poor sales, which is rather likely as most reviewers seem to be biased against Sony.

Bottom line: If Sony screws up the console then they will fail in the gaming market. Nintendo isn't going to have another great console like they did before unless the Wii-U is a success. Microsoft will almost guaranteed find success in the next Xbox, regardless of any issues with the console.

It's kind of like the Cold War but with 3 powers - the one that succeeds in this generation will dominate the next.
 
I disagree, and it all comes down as to how one defines the term 'success'. Nintendo completely left the core gamers, people who would devote three or four hours in a gaming session, in the dust and only appealed to the casual, or people who only plays for fifteen to twenty minutes in a gaming session, or people who wouldn't even consider playing a video game before in their lives. Is that a successful console? Ask any person who wouldn't even consider playing video games before in their lives, and they would tell you, generally speaking, that the Wii is successful in bringing new gamers into a market that would otherwise be dominated by Sony and Microsoft. With 45.25 million units sold in NA as of 2011, it is still a seller, regardless of what you or even I think.
 
That Ars Technica article is quite interesting. Right now, though, I fail to see why it is necessarily bad news that Sony and Microsoft are possibly aiming for cheaper hardware. I still expect them to go for a relatively competitive pricing. My assumption is that they will still be a good deal in terms of price vs. performance.

I also agree that the limitations off HDTVs will make sure that a worse GPU will still be able to create some rather good looking games, especially since games can usually be far more optimized to squeeze every last bit of performance out of the available hardware. Forgoing insanely powerful CPUs, well... I don't even know whether they ever were put to good use, anyways. A simple Core 2 Duo has lasted very long for most PC games and I'd actually say that CPUs have hardly been much of a bottleneck for the visual quality seen in most games. Hence why I think that cutting costs by using less powerful hardware isn't going to have as much as a negative impact on console gaming as some people expect.

It's not like we won't see any progress at all, as it was the case with Nintendo's Wii at launch. My hope is that the new generation of consoles will be significantly cheaper at launch, say somewhere around the 250$ mark, instead of the 400$ that the Xbox360 was released at. My hope would also be that Sony and Microsoft (especially Microsoft!) will stay away from releasing a plethora of different versions of their respective console with slightly different capabilities.

This may sound strange, as I actually like the Wii the least out of the three current consoles, but I do think that it is the best in terms of just being a gaming console. You know, it's relatively simple, relatively cheap and focused on, well, playing games. Maybe not the kind of games I personally like to play, but I think you get where I'm going with this.

I do realize that multimedia usages will be very important for the upcoming consoles, so hoping to see a stronger focus on actually gaming might be entirely futile, but I'm trying to stay positive for the time being. Another thing that makes me look forward to the upcoming generation is the fact that the hardware isn't as powerful. Why might that be a good point, though? Because I am a firm believer that not being able to focus solely on eye candy might cause developers to shift their focus more towards the gameplay elements. Improving gameplay to compensate for the lack of graphical prowess that's on equal terms with the gaming PCs out there, now that'd be a good thing. We've seen such games suceed quite a bit recently, with lots of PSN and XBLA games that may not be very advanced from a pure graphics point of view, but offer great gameplay. We even got a fine example of that with Rayman Origins as a full-fledged retail game. The PC market has also seen some great indy games that are, from a pure graphics point of view, not very taxing in the hardware. A shift towards those kinds of games seems desirable to me. I actually feel that graphics are being over-emphasized on, right now, and have been for quite a while.

If it wasn't for all the DRM rumours floating around right now, I'd be rather excited for the upcoming console generation. I don't mind all sorts of protection from pirated software, really. But after playing the Diablo III Beta and witnessing the downsides of constant internet connectivity being a requirement to play a game in single player, it is annoying me, to say the least. Furthermore, it seems to me that jailbreaking these consoles will also soar to new heights. Piracy, not to safe money but to use the consoles more conveniently might also be occuring far more often, too.

I'm basically split and torn about this. The next generation seems to carry great potential, in my opinion, to start a new trend in gaming which would be right up my ally. I don't need the best possible graphics and the most powerful hardware. All I want is gameplay that's really good. Not having access to outstanding hardware and graphics might faciliate better gameplay, so I'd say that there's a distinct chance for a "second golden age of gaming" to be caused by this change in philosophy of the biggest console manufacturers... If it wasn't for the overblown DRM measures and the potential thread to the second hand market - most likely without getting the great deals and cheap games that are being offered via Steam, for example. In that regard, I am afraid that we might be ending up witht he worst of both worlds: Games that are as hard to pass on as PC games with all their registrations and online accounts but stay at the same price point that console games have been at for years. Which would inevitably kill all the chances to see that "second golden age of gaming" come true.
 
All of the above is true, Luminis, however I must point out that the seventh generation's console costs did not come, despite what you may have read in the gaming press, from CPUs and GPUs, but instead it is HDD sizes. Multiple SKUs of one console, for example, say a 360, resulting in the increased costs of the console did not come from the processors, because Microsoft used rather cheap units for their console, but the increased price came from the HDD. They basically phased out the Arcade SKU which had no HDD, the Pro which had a 60 GB hdd, and multiple "Elite" SKUs which had HDD sizes ranging from 120 GB to 320 GB.

And because the console was proprietary, you couldn't legally upgrade your HDD like you could the PS3.
 
The HDD would, however, not drive the prices up like that all by itself. HDDs haven't been that expensive in 2005, and certainly not the rather small ones. Memory has been getting very cheap over the course of the last decade and while the HDDs obviously drove the price up, one would also have to factor in the usage of multiple USB ports, wireless controllers and the bluray drive in the PS3.

Now, if you were in about how re-releasing consoles became a necessity to update them with more storage capacity, I would've agreed with that.

But, the important thing is, the HDDs weren't really optional if one was going to launch games with downloadable games that could also be used as media players. The CPUs and GPUs, well, those were not and still are not as mandatory, so to speak, as a HDD with sufficient storage capabilities, I would assume. Thus, it seems to be the easiest way to cut costs.
 
That is exactly what I was getting at. Because if you compare any game side by side with the 360 vs the PS3, all you would get is graphics that appear to look better on the 360 than the PS3. This is due to the mandate that Microsoft put on developers and publishers that any multiplatform release across the two consoles have to, graphically speaking, have to have a comparable similarity across the two consoles.

Now that may not sound like much to you, but I have seen comparison shots between different multiplatform games before, but to someone with a keen eye for detail, you can clearly see that because of this rule, most publishers tend to develop for the 360 unless it is a PS3 exclusive.

So if it isn't graphics, then what is it? The only factor that I can think of that keeps console prices high has to be the HDD. Microsoft doesn't allow for customization on the HDD like the PS3 does, that is why you are seeing a lot of sales of the new model 360s than the slim PS3.
 
The only factor that I can think of that keeps console prices high has to be the HDD. Microsoft doesn't allow for customization on the HDD like the PS3 does, that is why you are seeing a lot of sales of the new model 360s than the slim PS3.

Or it could be the hardware makes a profit and they want to keep making money off of it.
 
If that was the case, why phase out the older model PS3s and 360s? While we are getting all the cards out on the table, let's also point out that Nintendo as also maintained a nice profit margin while being priced cheaper than the 360 and PS3, and also they also made up the console development costs back faster than any other console in this generation or in any other generation before it.

Sony and Microsoft continue to put out SKUs with bigger HDD, at $3-400, and they HAVE to! The content that they put out takes up more and more HDD space, and Sony and MS knows that to keep up with that content, they must put out those bigger capacity systems just to keep up with the amount of content that they put out.
 
That is exactly what I was getting at. Because if you compare any game side by side with the 360 vs the PS3, all you would get is graphics that appear to look better on the 360 than the PS3. This is due to the mandate that Microsoft put on developers and publishers that any multiplatform release across the two consoles have to, graphically speaking, have to have a comparable similarity across the two consoles.

Now that may not sound like much to you, but I have seen comparison shots between different multiplatform games before, but to someone with a keen eye for detail, you can clearly see that because of this rule, most publishers tend to develop for the 360 unless it is a PS3 exclusive.
Well, I'm not sure whether that's actually the case. I know fo some, and I stress some multi platform games that do, indeed look better on the PS3, albeit only slightly. The differences are usually very, ery minor, but this is to be expected. Most developers, from what I know, thend to use the Xbox360 as the lead console.

The reasons being its higher installation base, especially in the US market, where certain company do reach high volumes with certain games, as well as the fact that the Xbox360, with its much simpler hardware architecture, is just easier to develop for. Squeezing that additional bit of performance out of the PS3 after developing the game on the 360 would require amounts of work that can't be justified by the relatively small gains in graphical quality.

Multi platform titles rarely reach the same level of polish, both on the 360 and the PS3. Xbox exclusive titles tend to look better than cross platform titles as well.

All of the above leads me to believe that the reason for the graphical appearence of those multi platform games isn't due to a mandate by Microsoft, but due to the nature of the hardware architecture in both and consoles and the diminishing returns of console specific optimization for a given game.
So if it isn't graphics, then what is it? The only factor that I can think of that keeps console prices high has to be the HDD.
This isn't about the current price, it's about the initial launch price and the production cost. Here's a quote I found on Wikipedia:
Wikipedia
The PlayStation 3's initial production cost is estimated by iSuppli to have been US$805.85 for the 20 GB model and US$840.35 for the 60 GB model.
The additional 40GB in the bigger HDD model increased the price by a meager 35$, that's less than 4.5% of the total price of the smaller 20GB model. The simple fact that a massively advanced CPU and GPU (at the time of the console's respective release) were used in the consoles were the major factor to driving these prices up - whether they were or are used to their fullest is entirely besides the point.

The reason why MS and Sony were able to reach a break-even on the hardware and even make profits directly off of the sold hardware, despite the ever-increasing HDD capacities also indicates that the major factor that drove the price up for the consoles (initially, of course) has been the hardware that hasn't been altered over time: The CPU and GPU, which became cheaper to produce as time went on.

However, not using that processing power to its fullest is just another reason for console developers to not go for such over-blown hardware again. The Wii, for example, was making Nintendo profits on the sold hardware instead of being sold at a loss, despite the lower initial retail price. That's the important point here: less powerful hardware (CPU and GPU, for the most part) = less production cost = earlier break even point on the hardware.
Microsoft doesn't allow for customization on the HDD like the PS3 does, that is why you are seeing a lot of sales of the new model 360s than the slim PS3.
They allow, however, USB storage units to be used. Also, I'd say that the Kinect bundles that come with a Slim 360 do play a rather big role in making the Slim 360 sell better. Plus, it has been released far later in the life cycle of the 360, which might be a factor, as well. I assume that more people are willing to replace a console they've had for five years than those who've owned it for three.
If that was the case, why phase out the older model PS3s and 360s?
Simple, to keep the buyers interested. New stuff is always easier to sell than old stuff. Also, increasing the HDD's capacity is a rather cheap way to improve the consoles hardware. The parts that drove the costs up initially became way cheaper to produce, anyways.
While we are getting all the cards out on the table, let's also point out that Nintendo as also maintained a nice profit margin while being priced cheaper than the 360 and PS3, and also they also made up the console development costs back faster than any other console in this generation or in any other generation before it.
Nintendo went in with an entirely different strategy than MS and Sony did, though. Sony and Ms both went with a loss leader strategy. They sold the consoles way below the production costs in order to achieve the highes possible installation base. The idea behind that kind of strategy is to secure a market and make the money afterwards, mostly with peripheral equipment and software. It's been pretty common in the home console market, actually. You just have to compare the estimated initial prodcution cost for the PS3 witht he initial retail price and you'll see where that's coming from.

Nintendo, on the other hand, made cheaper hardware from the start. Less powerful CPU, GPU, no internal HDD. Thus, Nintendo got its hardware into the profit zone from the get go. A pont that MS and Sony didn't reach for years, as the hardware was too expensive to produce.
Sony and Microsoft continue to put out SKUs with bigger HDD, at $3-400, and they HAVE to!

The content that they put out takes up more and more HDD space, and Sony and MS knows that to keep up with that content, they must put out those bigger capacity systems just to keep up with the amount of content that they put out.
Given that both the Xbox and the PS3 can have their storage capacity increased by other means, I'd say that no, they do not have to. Also, the larger capacity systems (my 120GB 360 Elite from 2006[?]) still hold all the necessary content, anyways. But, and that's the important point: The system may cost the customer 300 bucks still, instead of 500. However, ionstead of losing 300 dollars per console sold, Sony and MS are now making some cash on the console. The important thing to remember is that the production cost aren't mirrored directly by the retail price. The console manufacturers do obviously want to increase their profits on the sold systems as time moves on. That is why you don't see the consoles being sold any cheaper: The margin of profit turned from negative to neutral first, than became positive and slowly increased. MS and Sony would've had to be dumb to pass on every cut in production cost to the consumer.

By reducing the production cost for the upcoming generation, MS and Sony will be able to do what Nintendo did: Release the consoles at a lower MSRP and still make money off of the hardware, or at least they won't lose money every console they sell.
 
I could have sworn Microsoft said there will be no new xbox hardware this year at E3.

no 720 at E3

Also gaming on a PC is not that expensive, if you "Need" a new pc your already looking at around 600-900$ for a mid ranged one, just add the price of a ps3 & a couple of games (300-500$) and now you have a decent gaming rig.

Its all relative, its not like everyone doesn't already own a computer, no?
 
This -> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/04/the-x86-playstation-4-signals-a-sea-change-in-the-console-industry.ars

Article is good but missed one important point, you can't really compare PC specs with Console specs, because no matter what powerful your PC is, games for it are not coded to the metal

That's why Consoles can squeeze so much from the same HW in new games after years contrary to PC, where HW is not optimized and can't be for the simple fact that new GPUs are released everytime, so there is no point in taking advantage of only one GPU out of thousands in the market
 
I'm quite thrilled to see whether the rumours off a cheap but less powerful PS4/Orbis will hold true. As it seems, that same rumour turned out to be false for the Xbox720/Durango.

I'd think as long as it can out perform the previous hardware by at least 6-10 times that's powerful enough added to that increased ram. I'm not viewing this from a pc gamer stand point. I'm viewing it from what the current systems can do. If the rumor Orbis can run the pc version of Crysis 2 DX11 in 1080p and 30fps thats worlds beyond what the PS3 can do as far as capability. And consoles will be able to use that hardware more effectively.
 
Thing is, four or five years after the launch of the new generation, we'll be where we are now, the consoles struggling to cope with what the developers have to squeeze out of them to make them look somewhat good.
If the rumor Orbis can run the pc version of Crysis 2 DX11 in 1080p and 30fps thats worlds beyond what the PS3 can do as far as capability.
What's interesting to me is that we might be looking at three tiers of performance: Orbis doing what you said, the Wii U not being able to render Crysis 2 in full HD and the Durango running it in 1080p at 60FPS... Just some random numbers to get my point across, obviously.

Would I consider the PS4 powerful enough? Yes, most likely. But, if there's a more powerful system out there, well, I'm just thrilled to see how thee consoles stack up to each other in terms of overall success.
 
Considering that the next gen consoles will be on the market until 2020, it would be rather stupid for Sony to go the low end route. For all the folks begging for an affordable system, I hope they will be disappointed, because I want to see a significant increase in performance from both companies. Playstation 3 and X360 can still be great systems to play, while next gen get off the ground.

The biggest thing is that the market isn't geared so much towards kids and teen anymore, so the financial risk of releasing an expensive system is can't be viewed as such. If an insanely high priced iPad/iPhone can make the profits it has, well I'm certain the 18+ crowd will jump on the consoles without question. The question is just, what will the MAJOR differences be, besides exclusive titles, that will the interesting thing.

Personally, I think Sony will not come out with the weaker system and I expect a minimum price tag of $500.
 
Considering that the next gen consoles will be on the market until 2020, it would be rather stupid for Sony to go the low end route. For all the folks begging for an affordable system, I hope they will be disappointed, because I want to see a significant increase in performance from both companies. Playstation 3 and X360 can still be great systems to play, while next gen get off the ground.

The biggest thing is that the market isn't geared so much towards kids and teen anymore, so the financial risk of releasing an expensive system is can't be viewed as such. If an insanely high priced iPad/iPhone can make the profits it has, well I'm certain the 18+ crowd will jump on the consoles without question. The question is just, what will the MAJOR differences be, besides exclusive titles, that will the interesting thing.

Personally, I think Sony will not come out with the weaker system and I expect a minimum price tag of $500.

For an occasional racer you do ask for a lot...
 
Personally, I think Sony will not come out with the weaker system and I expect a minimum price tag of $500.
Well, the Wii did, to a certain extend, prove that monster hardware isn't exactly necessary to make a well selling system and you are right, if people can afford 500$ iPhones, they can afford 500$ consoles. That's ignoring the fact that iPhones are status symbols while home consoles are almost the oppsosite, but it is true, nonetheless.

However, the financial situation for Sony and MS is different right now. Sony's been losing billions of dollards on yearly basis for a while now. Can they afford to develop a high-end system and sell it at a loss, as they did with the PS3? MS probably can and, as it seems now, is willing to do so.
 
Well, the Wii did, to a certain extend, prove that monster hardware isn't exactly necessary to make a well selling system and you are right, if people can afford 500$ iPhones, they can afford 500$ consoles. That's ignoring the fact that iPhones are status symbols while home consoles are almost the oppsosite, but it is true, nonetheless.

However, the financial situation for Sony and MS is different right now. Sony's been losing billions of dollards on yearly basis for a while now. Can they afford to develop a high-end system and sell it at a loss, as they did with the PS3? MS probably can and, as it seems now, is willing to do so.

Nothing against you, but I hate this argument. I, as a gamer, give two *** about how much it will cost, I care about the hardware, the better the hardware, the more complex and realistic the games are, in every area. If I can not afford it day one, I save up and/or wait for (a) price drop(s). That easy. People who say that consoles should not cost more than 400 or even 500 Euros, are the same who have MOBILE PHONES! that are at least as expensive. Total idiots in my book.
 
So this fabulous PS4 is supposed to lock 2nd hand games, use low end hardaware compared to future PC's / other consoles... And about games probably keeping the development routine with 200000 first person shooters, 10000 dlc, 500000 crap mini half assed games and only 1 decent racing game (made by some weird/nosense developers).

Hmm they really know how to hype their fan base. :crazy:
 
Nothing against you, but I hate this argument. I, as a gamer, give two *** about how much it will cost, I care about the hardware, the better the hardware, the more complex and realistic the games are, in every area. If I can not afford it day one, I save up and/or wait for (a) price drop(s). That easy. People who say that consoles should not cost more than 400 or even 500 Euros, are the same who have MOBILE PHONES! that are at least as expensive. Total idiots in my book.
That's all well and good, but you not giving a crap about that isn't going to make Nintendo any money, it's not going to make Sony any money and it's not going to make Microsoft any money, either. Yeah, slight exaggeration there, but I guess you get my point. Us hardcore gamers aren't the only audience any more and, to a lot of people, a console isn't worth more than a mobile phone.

Sucks if you, like me, don't share the taste of the mass market. But, at some point, one just has to understand that that's not going to change a thing.
 
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