Political Correctness

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That's a bit of a mis-representation, probably because you wrote a new interpretation of the headline written by Fox quoting The Wire quoting Brown quoting PLOS ONE.

If you follow that turgid trail back you get to the reason that PLOS ONE have issues with the study (my emphasis);

PLOS ONE
PLOS ONE is aware of the reader concerns raised on the study’s content and methodology. We take all concerns raised about publications in the journal very seriously, and are following up on these per our policy and COPE guidelines. As part of our follow up we will seek further expert assessment on the study’s methodology and analyses. We will provide a further update once we have completed our assessment and discussions.

Brown University say (most relevant part, feel free to quote a section that you think supports the Fox view):

Brown
In light of questions raised about research design and data collection related to the study on “rapid onset gender dysphoria,” the University determined that removing the article from news distribution is the most responsible course of action.

Perhaps unsurprisingly The Wire looked for a new angle in the story;

The Wire
A Brown University Researcher Released A Study About Teens Imitating Their Peers By Turning Trans. The Left Went Insane. So Brown Caved.


Which led to Fox writing

Fox
Brown U. censors 'gender dysphoria' study, worried that findings might 'invalidate the perspectives' of transgender community

And finally our esteemed forum colleague thought that the story was

Study pulled because it might hurt feelings

What a mess! A paper is under review (not 'pulled', not 'censored', I can still see it at PLOS ONE) because of concerns raised over methodology. Neither you nor I know the outcome of that review of course... and I know you're normally as keen as I am on awaiting the outcome of investigations before making a final judgement. You surely have to admit that the whole story illustrates how Internet Chinese Whispers works, so that's interesting.
 
What a mess! A paper is under review (not 'pulled', not 'censored', I can still see it at PLOS ONE) because of concerns raised over methodology. Neither you nor I know the outcome of that review of course... and I know you're normally as keen as I am on awaiting the outcome of investigations before making a final judgement.

To be fair, the paper seems like it has the usual experimental design problems that tend to go along with so many psychological studies. Their sample population was selected specifically from a source that they suspected was biased, and you've got parents answering questions for a third party (their child) through an internet survey about their psychological state and motivations.

It's even more concerning that they refuse to make their data available with the paper. Obviously you can't give names, but you can absolutely scrub the data of identifying information and present that. Otherwise it's just made up numbers.

This is a terrible setup for a replicable and representative result. The best that you could read into it is "there may be some effect there that warrants a proper, well-designed study". But probably there's nothing really to be seen there, and depending on the questions in the survey may simply be another case of p-hacking.
 
I searched and was suprised there wasn't a thread on this so far. So I have plugged the gap and made one.

Whats your view, do you think its taken too far, any funny examples?

Lets discuss people.

Yes it has been taken too far. No I do not wish to give an example. I'm tired of living it.
 
"It" hasn't and doesn't even really exist.

If you want to make up a definition in your head because it helps you sleep at night, go right ahead. Boy you go right ahead, don't let noone tell you you're being ignorant or otherwise, Keep dreaming, enjoy every ounce of your safe spaces while they last:rolleyes: . I suggest you post in the kids forum next time seems a perfect fit. I hear dumb dumb jokes there all the time.:lol::lol:

But if I had to ask, when's the last time you left the house? 16,481 posts and counting... Do you even have a front door? I have so many questions for a person of such...out in the wild too.. Gotta replace that nasty keyboard sometime... right? Mate youre hilarious, but not really, what even are you? :lol::lol::lol:
 
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If you want to make up a definition in your head because it helps you sleep at night, go right ahead.

So I pretty much lost your drift at that point. I'm sure that you were the one saying it existed, I was the one saying it wasn't...?
 
If you want to make up a definition in your head because it helps you sleep at night, go right ahead. Boy you go right ahead, don't let noone tell you you're being ignorant or otherwise, Keep dreaming, enjoy every ounce of your safe spaces while they last:rolleyes: . I suggest you post in the kids forum next time seems a perfect fit. I hear dumb dumb jokes there all the time.:lol::lol:

But if I had to ask, when's the last time you left the house? 16,481 posts and counting... Do you even have a front door? I have so many questions for a person of such...out in the wild too.. Gotta replace that nasty keyboard sometime... right? Mate youre hilarious, but not really, what even are you? :lol::lol::lol:
Euhm...what? Do you really have so little support for your argument that you're compelled to shell out insults at someone with whom you disagree instead of crafting a reasoned response that in some part addresses the questions asked?
 
To be fair, the paper seems like it has the usual experimental design problems that tend to go along with so many psychological studies. Their sample population was selected specifically from a source that they suspected was biased, and you've got parents answering questions for a third party (their child) through an internet survey about their psychological state and motivations.

It's even more concerning that they refuse to make their data available with the paper. Obviously you can't give names, but you can absolutely scrub the data of identifying information and present that. Otherwise it's just made up numbers.

This is a terrible setup for a replicable and representative result. The best that you could read into it is "there may be some effect there that warrants a proper, well-designed study". But probably there's nothing really to be seen there, and depending on the questions in the survey may simply be another case of p-hacking.
From the author: "Descriptive studies aren't randomized controlled trials—you can't tell cause and effect, and you can't tell prevalence," she told Science Daily. "It's going to take more studies to bring in more information, but this is a start."

Clearly it wasn't meant to be based on any kind of scientifically repeatable methodology but simply to open lines of inquiry for further study, which likely won't happen now, given the backlash. Below you can see that the paper as written addressed those concerns you mentioned and more.

From the Study:
The limitations of this study include that it is a descriptive study with the purpose of a delineating previously unrecognized specific population of AYAs identifying as transgender and developing hypotheses about the origins and significance of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD). This is not a prevalence study and does not attempt to evaluate the degree to which this presentation of a socially mediated onset of gender dysphoria or the use of the drive to transition as a maladaptive coping mechanism is widespread in the population. Gathering more data on the topics introduced is a key recommendation for further study. It is not uncommon for first, descriptive studies, especially when studying a population or phenomenon where the prevalence is unknown, to use targeted recruiting. To maximize the possibility of finding cases meeting eligibility criteria, recruitment is directed towards communities that are likely to have eligible participants. For example, in the first descriptive study about children who had been socially transitioned, the authors recruited potential subjects from gender expansive camps and gender conferences where parents who supported social transition for young children might be present and the authors did not seek out communities where parents might be less inclined to find social transition for young children appropriate [62]. In the same way, for the current study, recruitment was targeted primarily to sites where parents had described the phenomenon of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria because those might be communities where such cases could be found. The generalizability of the study must be carefully delineated based on the recruitment methods, and, like all first descriptive studies, additional studies will be needed to replicate the findings. The websites that were used for recruitment are sites which specifically offer to support parents worried about their transgender-identifying children and the population viewing these websites may be different from populations viewing websites that promote a “gender-affirming” perspective and both populations may differ from a broader general population in their attitudes about transgender-identified individuals.
 
From the author: "Descriptive studies aren't randomized controlled trials—you can't tell cause and effect, and you can't tell prevalence," she told Science Daily. "It's going to take more studies to bring in more information, but this is a start."

Clearly it wasn't meant to be based on any kind of scientifically repeatable methodology but simply to open lines of inquiry for further study, which likely won't happen now, given the backlash. Below you can see that the paper as written addressed those concerns you mentioned and more.

It didn't. She's handwaving problems away, not addressing them. You cannot get valid psychological data, even for a descriptive study, without at least interviewing some subjects directly. Likewise, if she knows that she's drawing from a biased pool of subjects then all percentages of population should either be removed or prefaced with a massive asterisk saying that it's only indicative of the population of three politically active websites.

It's not presented that way at all. It's presented as a preliminary study that is applicable to the general population, and it has some really, really big problems if it's going to be used like that.

If it's not supposed to be a scientifically repeatable methodology, then don't publish it as a scientific paper. Write an opinion piece. Write a case study. Write any of the number of other types of documents that don't imply that the information and data contained within has been subjected to rigorous selection and analysis. If it wasn't presented as a scientific paper, no one would care.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an interesting enough topic and that someone definitely should do a proper study on it. But this one is bad. And I'm not talking about anything to do with the subject matter, I'm talking purely about how the science was done. It's bad science, and it's bad science that's attempting to pass itself off as something that it's not. It's entirely possible to do very niche studies and publish them with the appropriate provisos to limit their applicability, but that's not happening here. She over-reached on some pretty vague data from a poorly designed study, and now the scientific community is tearing her a new hole over it. That's peer review for you; occasionally it works as intended.

Psychology is a hard field in which to do good science. You're rarely going to get clear answers, it's always going to be hidden in statistics and as such requires very high levels of rigour. Historically that's been sort of ignored, and as a result all sorts of BS has gotten through. In the last five to ten years there's started to be a lot more push back against bad studies, particularly in psychology and other medical sciences. It can be frustrating, but it's ultimately for the betterment of the fields. Human psychology is already hard enough to understand without false information from bad studies muddying the water.

It's interesting the assumptions she throws out during that section you quoted though:

...this presentation of a socially mediated onset of gender dysphoria...


That's an assumption of cause and effect.

...the use of the drive to transition as a maladaptive coping mechanism...

That's an assumption that it's both a coping mechanism and that it's maladaptive.

She has her ideas of what's going on here, and she's looking for evidence of that. Which is fine, that's the standard scientific method; present hypothesis, look for evidence to prove it false. But that's not how the paper is written. She's gone broad, presumably because it's much easier to do a "soft" study like this where all you've done is send out some surveys than it is to do actual science to support or disprove a hypothesis.
 
So I pretty much lost your drift at that point. I'm sure that you were the one saying it existed, I was the one saying it wasn't...?

alrighty there we go buddy. I was the one saying if you don't know what something means, get educated before you make a fool of yourself. Do everyone a favour and at least try to educate yourself before you spout on with the unlimited nonsense will ya. Save me a 🤬 headache, pal
 
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I think @Grippy lost his grip.
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This is an interesting article in The Atlantic which rejects callout culture for some poll results of the US population which many on this thread will no doubt welcome:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...orities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/

Progressives can draw a crumb of comfort from the poll's finding that the majority of US citizens which dislikes political correctness is smaller than that which dislikes hate speech.
 
This is an interesting article in The Atlantic which rejects callout culture for some poll results of the US population which many on this thread will no doubt welcome:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...orities-dislike-political-correctness/572581/

Progressives can draw a crumb of comfort from the poll's finding that the majority of US citizens which dislikes political correctness is smaller than that which dislikes hate speech.
Out of that article, that was your main take away to present to the forum? Not that most people are in fair agreeance, but more left right rhetoric?
 
Out of that article, that was your main take away to present to the forum? Not that most people are in fair agreeance, but more left right rhetoric?
Most US citizens are united against political correctness, but no, my main take away was that the backlash against it was borne from a desire not to offend others on the part of the majority, rather than a dogged determination to offend others no matter what. I found that interesting because up until now I had genuinely believed the opposite.

I'm sorry that rather than accept the findings as I do that you decided to attack me for attempting to provide a counterpoint. If you read that as my attempting to rubbish the article, rather than the callout culture it decries, then I feel you've badly misread my previous post.
 
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Maybe I am misreading your post, but it seems to me that you were besmirching liberals for their disdain of hate speech over anti PCness. When the article in fact points out that the fringe care one way or the other, but that 80+% of the population otherwise feels pretty equally about their dislike of hate speech and PC culture.
I mean, why even point out only liberals otherwise?
 
Maybe I am misreading your post, but it seems to me that you were besmirching liberals for their disdain of hate speech over anti PCness. When the article in fact points out that the fringe care one way or the other, but that 80+% of the population otherwise feels pretty equally about their dislike of hate speech and PC culture.
I mean, why even point out only liberals otherwise?
I wasn't besmirching them. I said they might not welcome the finding that a majority of Americans dislikes PC but on the other hand they may be comforted by the fact that like them that majority also disdains hate speech. That's why.
 
Most US citizens are united against political correctness, but no, my main take away was that the backlash against it was borne from a desire not to offend others on the part of the majority, rather than a dogged determination to offend others no matter what. I found that interesting because up until now I had genuinely believed the opposite.

I'm sorry that rather than accept the findings as I do that you decided to attack me for attempting to provide a counterpoint. If you read that as my attempting to rubbish the article, rather than the callout culture it decries, then I feel you've badly misread my previous post.
I'm not clear on what it was the opposite of that you grew up genuinely believing.
 
I wasn't besmirching them. I said they might not welcome the finding that a majority of Americans dislikes PC but on the other hand they may be comforted by the fact that like them that majority also disdains hate speech. That's why.
But they are a part of that majority of americans that dislike PC culture. To say liberals wont welcome it, when the numbers show that is only true of the fringe, is to label all liberals under the blanket of the fringe, a besmirch to be sure.
 
But they are a part of that majority of americans that dislike PC culture. To say liberals wont welcome it, when the numbers show that is only true of the fringe, is to label all liberals under the blanket of the fringe, a besmirch to be sure.
A singular interpretation of my post "to be sure". Do you really think I have anything against liberals? Have you read any of my posts? Besides, my post didn't even mention liberals, let alone besmirch them. It referred to those progressives who supported political correctness and was intended to be presented in a neutral way.

I'm beginning to see that posting a survey which went against what I had previously believed and hoping that I could leave this thread in peace was a forlorn hope.
 
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I feel for you, brother. Some years back I got on a test group for an experimental medication to combat that, and it worked a treat, but it made my hands smaller. Sad trombone.
Well, surely that helped other things look bigger right? 💡 I mean, imagine how much further you can get your fingers up your nose!:lol:
 
Well, surely that helped other things look bigger right? 💡 I mean, imagine how much further you can get your fingers up your nose!:lol:
Oh, I didn't stay on the stuff. I'd have thought that was apparent*.

:P

*For what it's worth, I don't really think myself a contrarian. I'm lots of things, but it isn't my prerogative to oppose popular opinion.
 
Really?

Fatty McPatty on the cover there isn't actually sporting the stereotypical healthy body type either.

There's a difference between being "overweight" (she's a size 24, I believe) and promoting an eating disorder like bulimia or anorexia nervosa. It's also interesting that people like James Corden (who admittedly has lost five stone by cutting this one food out click here for 24 pages of what it is) don't seem to attract the same ire as female plus-size models.
 
No, there really isn't any difference in being unhealthy because you have an overstuffing yourself eating disorder or being miss pukey.
Both are disorders. Both are not beneficial for your health. Both should be treated equally. Fatty McPatty's ad should be banned too.
 
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