[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Pillo-san]

Maybe I look hypocritical, but in a free world we can vote about stuff. If the majority rules in favour for something well I better have to accept it, it is simple is it not? If I do not like it, I can try to work with others to change it back for next time.
@Tornado So what is it he is walking with. looks like a totally overkill gun to me.



the funny thing is, small coloured children are shot down when playing with toy guns but those dudes trying to actually provoke police are not even treated badly. Odd

 

[Tornado]

Mob rule = freedom?

 

[Famine]

Maybe I look hypocritical, but in a free world we can vote about stuff. If the majority rules in favour for something well I better have to accept it, it is simple is it not?

Have a look at @Danoff's signature.

Bluntly, no. No amount of people can vote to violate even one person's rights.

 

[squadops]

Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

I'm taking it as Bernie supporting taxation for services not used as Famine pointed out, he's against property ownership yet owns some, he want's to punish success, and I'm sure he'd like to take our guns away.

Social Democracy = FREEDOM!

 

[huskeR32]

Statistically, the states with the strictest laws are the ones that have the most firearm violence.

You have a source for this? Literally every study I've ever seen on this question comes down on the opposite side: stricter guns laws are associated with lower rates of gun violence, suicides, and homicides.

 

[squadops]

Washington DC? and perhaps Chicago, not sure about that one though. I do know there is a town back east were the citizens are required to own guns. The head of household must and be able to use it, they have a very low crime rate. I could find it if I need to.

Two quick googles provided these 👍

http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/
http://rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

 

[mustafur]

Those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither.

I'm taking it as Bernie supporting taxation for services not used as Famine pointed out, he's against property ownership yet owns some, he want's to punish success, and I'm sure he'd like to take our guns away.

Social Democracy = FREEDOM!

I would love you to show me when Bernie has said he is against property ownership.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Statistically, the states with the strictest laws are the ones that have the most firearm violence.

Source required.

Here's mine.

 

[huskeR32]

Washington DC? and perhaps Chicago, not sure about that one though. I do know there is a town back east were the citizens are required to own guns. The head of household must and be able to use it, they have a very low crime rate. I could find it if I need to.

Was that directed at my question posed to Blood Eagle? If so, I see you still can't wrap your head around using the quote/reply buttons to make it clear who you're talking to.

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I would love you to show me when Bernie has said he is against property ownership.

As would I.

 

[Blood Eagle]

You have a source for this? Literally every study I've ever seen on this question comes down on the opposite side: stricter guns laws are associated with lower rates of gun violence, suicides, and homicides.

Drop suicide from firearm violence stats. Look up crime stats in Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago etc. All restrictive cities with massive firearm violence problems.

 

[huskeR32]

Drop suicide from firearm violence stats. Look up crime stats in Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago etc. All restrictive cities with massive firearm violence problems.

That would be a "no" then?

 

[squadops]

I would love you to show me when Bernie has said he is against property ownership.

It is a key principal to the style of government, see below.

http://theweek.com/articles/559073/bernie-sanders-right-time-democratic-socialism

This is not as extreme as it sounds. You'll still be able to own a computer, clothes, and a home under democratic socialism. But private property that is plainly negative to society, such as extraction rights in buried carbon,will have to be eventually extinguished if the human race is going to survive. The point is that common human welfare is more important than an absolute right to ownership.

And yes @huskeR32 that was in response to your question, I'll spell it out more clearly just for you.

 

[Tornado]

@Tornado So what is it he is walking with. looks like a totally overkill gun to me.

Scary looking guns are bad. Gotcha.

the funny thing is, small coloured children are shot down when playing with toy guns but those dudes trying to actually provoke police are not even treated badly. Odd

Yes, cops shooting black kids for little reason is a problem, but I'm not seeing the relevance that you're acting is there.

 

[huskeR32]

It is a key principal to the style of government, see below.

So he didn't actually say it then? You're just projecting that onto him based on an extremely short article that waffles around on the question of what social democracy even means? Gotcha.

EDIT:

And yes @huskeR32 that was in response to your question, I'll spell it out more clearly just for you.

You'll spell out more clearly your non-answer to a question that wasn't even directed at you? Okay, great.

 

[mustafur]

It is a key principal to the style of government, see below.

http://theweek.com/articles/559073/bernie-sanders-right-time-democratic-socialism



And yes @huskeR32 that was in response to your question, I'll spell it out more clearly just for you.

So the Ability to harm liberty via environmental damage is the same as Owning a house?

 

[squadops]

@huskeR32 It is a key principal and he openly calls himself one, what should I think? I already know based on his voting record supporting Obama's crazy double death taxes etc that he is not in favor of property ownership. Think whatever you want, I know what he stands for.

Good thing we will not see him in office.

 

[mustafur]

You know what he stands for based on something he didn't say?

Is assumptions a big part of your political beliefs?

 

[Pillo-san]

This is not as extreme as it sounds. You'll still be able to own a computer, clothes, and a home under democratic socialism. But private property that is plainly negative to society, such as extraction rights in buried carbon,will have to be eventually extinguished if the human race is going to survive. The point is that common human welfare is more important than an absolute right to ownership.

Why then do we have for example a lot of wealthy Elites that own mine/oil companies like that. Never forget people at the top will still be at the top, maybe in the future people will have to change as stated in the article but it has nothing to do with being a democratic socialist.

 

[huskeR32]

It is a key principal and he openly calls himself one, what should I think?

First, I'd like to see where you found that abolishing private property is a "key principal" of democratic socialism. Then we can talk about what that means about Bernie. Until then, you're just blowing smoke.

I already know based on his voting record supporting Obama's crazy double death taxes etc that he is not in favor of property ownership.

Let's see what Bernie himself has to say on the topic, shall we? (Emphasis mine.)

In defining what democratic socialism means to him, Sanders said: "I don’t believe government should take over the grocery store down the street or own the means of production, but I do believe that the middle class and the working families who produce the wealth of America deserve a decent standard of living and that their incomes should go up, not down. I do believe in private companies that thrive and invest and grow in America, companies that create jobs here, rather than companies that are shutting down in America and increasing their profits by exploiting low-wage labor abroad."

I think I'll let the man speak for himself rather than take your word that you "know what he stands for."

 

[squadops]

I hope someone will ask him about it, there is a specific reason you cannot find him speaking of it anywhere. Funny how you guys avoid his voting record in the Senate over any subject that comes close to the topic at hand.

Devastating death tax rates should give you a hint, do you know his stance on eminent domain?

Sure you can say I am assuming but it's not a very far assumption, I see a spade, look, it's a spade.

.......

BTW isn't he on the senate budget committee? wow they know how to balance a budget don't they.

 

[mustafur]

@squadops since you seem to have turn Utilitarian all of a sudden, what is your views on Asbestos should we allow it to be made and sold freely to those that want to use it, even if it effects others Health.

I hope someone will ask him about it, there is a specific reason you cannot find him speaking of it anywhere. Funny how you guys avoid his voting record in the Senate over any subject that comes close to the topic at hand.

Devastating death tax rates should give you a hint, do you know his stance on eminent domain?

Sure you can say I am assuming but it's not a very far assumption, I see a spade, look, it's a spade.

Please show me some sources on his voting record supporting your theory on property ownership.

 

[huskeR32]

I hope someone will ask him about it, there is a specific reason you cannot find him speaking of it anywhere.

My post right before this one has a quote from him about that very topic.

 

[squadops]

@huskeR32 you could not be more short sighted with your quote, it is a progression into marxism I can promise you that. Once it starts it's not going to stop 1/2 way to the goal as we've seen over and over again in Europe through the years.

I would strongly suggest you read this before continuing to jump down my throat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

we've already seen it, been there done that, as I said earlier in this thread; We've already learned what we need to about that stuff, that is why we fought for independance from it and wrote the best document ever created.

 

[mustafur]

I could swear China says otherwise.

 

[huskeR32]

@huskeR32 you could not be more short sighted with your quote, it is a progression into marxism I can promise you that.

Wait a minute. His stance is that government should not take over private businesses, and should not take over the means of production in our economy. You're saying there's a "progression" from that to Marxism? How on Earth are you getting to that conclusion?

 

[Pillo-san]

@huskeR32 you could not be more short sighted with your quote, it is a progression into marxism I can promise you that. Once it starts it's not going to stop 1/2 way to the goal as we've seen over and over again in Europe through the years.

I would strongly suggest you read this before continuing to jump down my throat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

we've already seen it, been there done that, as I said earlier in this thread; We've already learned what we need to about that stuff, that is why we fought for independance from it and wrote the best document ever created.

What? again what? Marxism is the next stop just because Bernie is a democratic socialist.. oh my that is harsh and over exaggerated, this is so fitting:




it seems you do not know what you are talking about... do not press the panic button just yet.

 

[squadops]

Wait a minute. His stance is that government should not take over private businesses, and should not take over the means of production in our economy. You're saying there's a "progression" from that to Marxism? How on Earth are you getting to that conclusion?

You are too lazy to even read my links about gun control, why would I ever think you could read or understand that wiki article.

sure I don't know what I'm talking about however, this is the POTUS thread and I could not be happier to see Clinton over Sanders 👍 The threat will always be very real to us.

And still you guys will not give Johnson a chance, not even read about the man ffs, talk about close minded. Socialism is nothing more than an excuse to limit freedom and it will always leave the door to worse things such as communism and nizism, keep dreaming your utopian dreams, the good news is you will probably be dead before the damage is done.

I could swear China says otherwise.

Have you ever heard of Tiananmen Square?

 

[Blood Eagle]

That would be a "no" then?

Anyone can post links to one sided pro gun and anti gun stats. They cater to what is intended by the party responsible for said stats. What I'd like to see is a honest assessment of firearm violence per state, suicide not counting in the assessment (unless shooter committed suicide after killing others), how many of the guns involved were of legal origin, if the shooter actually had the right to bear arms, if firearms in question conformed to Federal, State and local laws etc. Outside of that, I don't recognize either sides agenda filled stats. HuskerR32, IIRC you were one of the most ill informed people about firearm laws in the Guns thread. I can speak from what I know personally, so take California as an example. California has a 10 day waiting period for all firearm purchases, a limit on how many firearms can be purchased in a given amount of time, written exam that you must pass, registration of all new handgun and rifle purchases with the DOJ, almost impossible to get a permit to carry a firearm (self defense in parts of CA is not recognized as a valid reason and California's State Constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to bear arms), open carry is illegal, 10 round magazine limitation, Military Rifle lookalikes like AR15 and AK47s must have a magazine locking device where a tool is required to be able to remove the magazine (this is to "slow the shooter down" and prevent quick magazine changes), to but ammunition in Los Angeles you have to give a fingerprint and the selling establishment is to submit paperwork with documentation of your ID or DL number to be submitted to the LA County Sheriff's Dept to keep on file, ban on magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds, a background check, there is a safe handgun roster that is California specific making many everyday run of the mill handguns illegal to purchase here that adds more banned firearms yearly, then after that's all said and done conform to the 20K plus Federal firearm laws on the books. It hasn't worked very well and only applies to someone who will follow the laws. I respect anyone's right to hate guns but they aren't going anywhere and even if they were full blown illegal there is and would be millions that the government doesn't know about in the hands of the wrong people.

 

[huskeR32]

You are too lazy to even read my links about gun control

Whether I read them or not (I did, in fact) is beside the point. I asked @Blood Eagle to substantiate his claim that in states with stricter gun control, gun violence was higher. Your response to that was about cities, not states, and included an anecdote about some "city back east" that required people to own guns.

why would I ever think you could read or understand that wiki article.

I've read that article several times, well before you ever threw it at me without any context whatsoever as to which part of it supported your current muddy argument. What does it have to do with Bernie Sanders' own words that refute your claim that he advocates for the abolishing of private property ownership?

And still you guys will not give Johnson a chance, not even read about the man ffs, talk about close minded.

That nobody ever responds to the dozens of times you've just dropped Johnson's name into unrelated conversations doesn't make us closed-minded.

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After all of your babbling and eye rolling, two very basic questions remain unanswered:

1. Do you have a source for the claim that in states with stricter gun control, gun violence is more prevalent?

2. When did Bernie Sanders explicitly say that he supports abolishing private property ownership?

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HuskerR32, IIRC you were one of the most ill informed people about firearm laws in the Guns thread.

Curious, seeing as I've never made a single post in the Guns thread.

 

[mustafur]

Have you ever heard of Tiananmen Square?

Thats Marxism is it?