[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

The party nominees are named. Now who do you support?

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Sanji Himura
When Libya had their civil war, all the refugees had the sense to go to Egypt or any other surrounding countries, and not traverse a body of water just to escape a war zone.
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Had the sense to? Or lacked the resources to do otherwise?
 
huskeR32
Had the sense to? Or lacked the resources to do otherwise?
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Genuine refugees are fleeing war, persecution, famine etc. They head to the nearest "safe zone".

Concern could be raised if these "refugees" are actually just practicing hijrah
 
DLR_Mysterion
Genuine refugees are fleeing war, persecution, famine etc. They head to the nearest "safe zone".
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I understand why somebody would want to leave a war zone, thanks.

What I'm questioning is Sanji's contention that moving to a nearby country is the only sensible choice.

If I was fleeing an awful situation, and had the means to get as far away as possible, why wouldn't I want to? Why wouldn't that make "sense?"
 
huskeR32
I understand why somebody would want to leave a war zone, thanks.

What I'm questioning is Sanji's contention that moving to a nearby country is the only sensible choice.

If I was fleeing an awful situation, and had the means to get as far away as possible, why wouldn't I want to? Why wouldn't that make "sense?"
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And how does paying someone thousands of dollars, by some reports, to transport them across a dangerous open body of water jive with lacking resources to do otherwise?
 
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Sanji Himura
When Libya had their civil war, all the refugees had the sense to go to Egypt or any other surrounding countries, and not traverse a body of water just to escape a war zone. So what changed between Libya and Syria?
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Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of refugees have used Libya as a springboard into Europe to escape the troubles in the area. Many thousands have died trying and continue to do so. Where was their sense?
 
TheCracker
Where was their sense?
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When your choices are either potentially dying at sea or staying in a deteriorating and increasingly-unstable region, risking everything seems worthwhile. The whole "refugees are only refugees until they're safe and then they're economic migrants" argument is a favourite of conservatives with no real grasp of the situation.
 
Johnnypenso
And how does paying someone thousands of dollars, by some reports, to transport them across a dangerous open body of water jive with lacking resources to do otherwise?
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You've utterly missed the point.

Sanji was reminiscing about the good ol' days, when refugees had the good "sense" to stay close to home.

I was countering with the notion that the real reason refugees tended to stay close was that they lacked the resources to do otherwise.

That those who do have the resources try and get farther away only bolsters my argument.
 
Danoff
You do realize that xenophobia, nativism & hatred of "the other" has been a constant theme in US humanhistory?
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I totally agree. But in recent decades, perhaps chastened by the appalling carnage of two World Wars, the western democracies have made a conscious attempt to move away from overt xenophobia, nativism & hatred of "the other". Let's call it a move to "political correctness" - shall we?

Trump & his loathsome, pampered offspring are appealing to the very worst tendencies in US/human history. Trevor Burrus from the Cato Institute wrote a brief article on the subject - this was before Trump launched his "murderers & rapists" candidacy.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/fighting-papists-popery-when-america-was-anti-catholic
 
huskeR32
You've utterly missed the point.

Sanji was reminiscing about the good ol' days, when refugees had the good "sense" to stay close to home.

I was countering with the notion that the real reason refugees tended to stay close was that they lacked the resources to do otherwise.

That those who do have the resources try and get farther away only bolsters my argument.
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Surely then they cross into economic migrant territory. They are no longer looking for a safe zone but, per your admission, looking for better prospects in life
 
DLR_Mysterion
Surely then they cross into economic migrant territory. They are no longer looking for a safe zone but, per your admission, looking for better prospects in life
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I'll bet if you ask them, that's exactly what they're still looking for.

EDIT: I'm not sure what you're referring to with the "per your admission" bit, but I never suggested they were doing anything other than fleeing the dangers of war.
 
DLR_Mysterion
Surely then they cross into economic migrant territory.
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The region has been dominated by perpetual conflict for decades. Refugees might be safe for the short-term, but another conflict will almost certainly engulf the region, and who is safe then? Can you really blame someone for wanting to get as far beyond that as possible, rather than just settling for a small patch of relief that could be swallowed up by the seething morass tomorrow?
 
prisonermonkeys
The region has been dominated by perpetual conflict for decades. Refugees might be safe for the short-term, but another conflict will almost certainly engulf the region, and who is safe then? Can you really blame someone for wanting to get as far beyond that as possible, rather than just settling for a small patch of relief that could be swallowed up by the seething morass tomorrow?
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Okay, let me ask you this. Would you agree that as far as land is concerned, that ISIS is pretty well contained today?
 
huskeR32
You've utterly missed the point.

Sanji was reminiscing about the good ol' days, when refugees had the good "sense" to stay close to home.

I was countering with the notion that the real reason refugees tended to stay close was that they lacked the resources to do otherwise.

That those who do have the resources try and get farther away only bolsters my argument.
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What about those that are already far away but are lining up in a developed first world nation to try get into their preferred first world nation?

At what point do we realise that some and many are economic Migrants and not refugees.
 
mustafur
What about those that are already far away but are lining up in a developed first world nation to try get into their preferred first world nation?

At what point do we realise that some and many are economic Migrants and not refugees.
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Stop making my argument broader than it is.

I'm not denying that there are some people looking to immigrate for economic reasons. That's a different conversation that I'm not even attempting to have.

I was, very narrowly, objecting to the notion that the only action that makes "sense" for refugees of war is to go next door and no farther.
 
I think everyone should watch or re-watch "Casablanca". From Axis occupied Europe to Vichy France in North Africa. From Vichy France in North Africa to Portugal (the romantic flight to Lisbon Bogart wouldn't board). And from Lisbon to America (North Central or South, whatever, the point was to go ... farther)
 
They got all the avengers but the one that matters most; Captain America. These Hillary puppets are just too much. Just remember Nov 8th your vote doesn't matter.

 
Why am I not surprised to see a response like that...:rolleyes:
 
DK
Why am I not surprised to see a response like that...:rolleyes:
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Sunday bloody Sunday, mate. If liberals care so much about foreign issues put out the cash and don't expect people who could give two squats, about political issues he/she never had an influence on. If liberals care about social issues like welfare, education in the ghettos, social programs like birth control and that other stuff put out that cash. People in today's society have got to take more social responsibility, always expecting others to fix their issues.
 
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Now get down people and listen to me
Gonna tell you how I made history
You can call me Louis, I'm the king of France
Check out my story while you do your dance
Now in seventeen hundred and eighty-nine
The peasants were starving, but I was fine
We were hanging out, down in old Versailles
That's the week end pad of my Queen and I
In the alleys of Paris they was eating rats
But it was filet and ... for the aristocrats
There were Dukes and Counts and Barons and Earls
I gave them the titles but I kept the girls
Blondes, red heads, wild brunettes
Ladies-in-waitin', I didn't wait to get
There was truffles for breakfast, toast for brunch
The line of the Folies Bergère for lunch


Well if Paris was rioting, they were doing it good
When we heard there was some trouble in the neighborhood
I wasn't too worried, no big deal
You step out the line, Jack, you're in the Bastille
The party kept swinging all day and all night
The champagne was flowing, we was feeling all right
They were screaming for bread, things started to shake
But Marie-Antoinette said (Well let 'em eat cake!)
Now the rabble wouldn't have it, they was angry with me
They built a big old razor called the guillotine
Then the people all shouted, "We'll have our day"
"Down with dirty water, give us Perrier!"
I said the more you want, things might get screwy
But they'll never lay a finger on good King Louis
Just keep your cool, don't fret, don't freak


Well they broke down the gate in one massive assault
And the party came to a grinding halt
They took the midgets and the freakies with the girls and all
And the boys said, "Louis, it's time to go"
They put my neck on the block, they took off my wig
And It occurred to me this was the end of the gig
They asked me did I have any last words to say
Well, I raised my head and I hollered "Hey!"


Mel Brooks, in "It's good to be the King"
 
Sanji Himura
Okay, let me ask you this. Would you agree that as far as land is concerned, that ISIS is pretty well contained today?
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For the most part, yes. But what happens when the pro-government forces or the anti-Assad rebels start to gain a foothold in the region? Towns and cities that free of the threat posed by ISIS will be confronted by a new threat.

DR_SID
Just remember Nov 8th your vote doesn't matter.
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Do you plan on contributing anything to this conversation, or are you just going to keep treating everyone like an idiot?
 
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I guess I'm buying an HTC Vive, then.
 
Do you plan on contributing anything to this conversation, or are you just going to keep treating everyone like an idiot?[/QUOTE]
Well that depends, if my memory serves me right didn't Al Gore win the 2000 General election. Don't be a 'prisoner' of the moment.
 
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DK
I guess I'm buying an HTC Vive, then.
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Don't see why that has any bearing on the technology, also considering facebook (usually a pro-democrat group) bought the company, it even more so shouldn't matter. Just like I still purchase starbucks despite their support of Hillary and anti-gun rhetoric.
 
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