[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

The party nominees are named. Now who do you support?


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Your goal should be to best represent your positions.

The way the US political system is constructed doesn't lend itself to that goal. It has developed, de facto, into an exclusionary two-party system. Even if it were not, a first-past-the-post voting system is not likely to give you the option of voting for someone who closely represents your own position. You would probably be less frustrated under a proportional representation parliamentary system. Totally hypothetical, of course, because it would be impossible to reconstruct the US political system in that way, but it would be fascinating to see how the various forces at play among the US electorate would re-align themselves in a proportional voting system.

Trump, Giuliani, Clinton, Cardinal Dolan & Henry Kissinger sitting at the same table for the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner in NYC tonight. :cheers:
 
Dr. Jill Stein will be in the Seattle area on Monday.

"Stein’s major issues include the push for a single-payer health-care system, a quick shift to renewable energy sources, a $15 national minimum wage, big cuts in military spending and free college and university."

I'm amazed that more Bernie people aren't supporting her.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=RSS_politics

I'm a bit surprised myself at that too, though I have seen a couple bumpers on campus either have a Stein-Barak sticker over their Sanders one or next to it.
 
What does that have to do with Gore?
The fact a candidate challenged his outcome. And Trump has plenty of right to be skeptical of whats coming.
You compared Trump to Gore. What does any of it have to do with my "poster girl" Hillary?
She is setting up this election, might not be how Bush got in, but dirty deeds are getting their pay back for Bush and her stepping aside for Obama. Call me a conspiracy person.
I challenge unfounded or inaccurate statements, regardless of what they're about. That's kinda the point of this thread, no?
And it's inaccurate to say Hillary and the DNC did not have a hand in altering the primaries to have the candidate THEY want in the seat for the general election. Thus rigging the general election. Lie once, you'll lie again, Cheat once, you'll cheat again.
Or were you hoping for an echo chamber?
No, I know not to expect that here... Y'all rarely agree with me anyways, even when I'm right. Y'all just find something in my post to criticize to make my point look invalid and not actually address the subject. Sounds familiar to the debates/election.
I'm a bit surprised myself at that too, though I have seen a couple bumpers on campus either have a Stein-Barak sticker over their Sanders one or next to it.
Saw this a month or two ago in traffic.
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Interesting school on the license plate....
 
ryzno
The argument has already been called; it's fine for the Democrats. Do as I say, not as I do.
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A page back or so, I posted a quote from Hillary who stated there was a right-wing conspiracy working against her husband the moment he was elected & they were behind the sex scandal. She's no stranger to calling, "BS! BS! They're against me!"

The 2004 Election went through the same scrutiny where many thought Kerry had won, & it was rigged in favor of Bush.
 
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I wish I had a Twitter, seems like I miss some good beefing between them.
 
I wish more people would vote 3rd party, this nation would do well to discard the notion that voting 3rd party is a wasted vote. I would love 3 or 4 party system in this country where all of the parties had a prominent standing, were given equal election coverage and so on.
 
...and yet... somehow... I'll be able to vote third party.

That's kind of sad ... a third party that doesn't even get a place in the televised debates. And there's no indication that anything will change as a result of this election.

I wish more people would vote 3rd party, this nation would do well to discard the notion that voting 3rd party is a wasted vote. I would love 3 or 4 party system in this country where all of the parties had a prominent standing, were given equal election coverage and so on.

Three or four parties is essential to creating a more responsive political system. I have seen it at work in Canada over the last 4 decades.
 
That's kind of sad ... a third party that doesn't even get a place in the televised debates. And there's no indication that anything will change as a result of this election.

It doesn't matter. My options are Trump, Hillary, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, or a write-in. Voting for Trump will change nothing, but undermine my representation. Voting for Hillary will change nothing, but undermine my representation. Voting for Jill Stein will change nothing, but undermine my representation. Voting for Gary Johnson will change nothing, but it will effectively convey my position on at least the issues he has campaigned on.

My voice will be overruled by the general public, as usual. But to stop talking or to change my tune to be in line with the general public would be less productive.

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The main 2 parties will never Change, they will get what they want at the end of the day, going 3rd party and maybe giving that Party a chance at Federal funding is just a better bet then voting for 2 evils who are just too terrible to vote for.

A 3rd party has to establish it self ASAP in American politics as the corruption is just getting completely out of hand, even the average observer can see it these days with very little effort to hide it.

Just because you don't get a plant instantly doesn't mean it won't be one, grow the damn seeds first.
 
The fact a candidate challenged his outcome.

What are you talking about?

And Trump has plenty of right to be skeptical of whats coming.

No, he really doesn't.

She is setting up this election, might not be how Bush got in, but dirty deeds are getting their pay back for Bush and her stepping aside for Obama.

I'm going to ask you again: What does any of this have to do with Hillary?

This started when you compared Gore's request for a recount in 2000 to Trump's current whining, and I said that was a bad comparison to make.

Stay on that topic, please. Try providing even the barest of arguments as to why Gore and Trump are comparable.

Call me a conspiracy person.

You're a conspiracy person.

And it's inaccurate to say Hillary and the DNC did not have a hand in altering the primaries to have the candidate THEY want in the seat for the general election.

Good thing I never said that then, isn't it?

Thus rigging the general election. Lie once, you'll lie again, Cheat once, you'll cheat again.

I'll again refer you to this article. "Rigging" a primary is one thing. Rigging the general, which would require both parties to inexplicably play along, is entirely another.

No, I know not to expect that here... Y'all rarely agree with me anyways, even when I'm right.

:lol:

Y'all just find something in my post to criticize to make my point look invalid and not actually address the subject.

Actually, I'm several posts into trying to directly address the subject you yourself chose - Gore and Trump - and you keep veering off into random Hillary diatribes.

Sounds familiar to the debates/election.

One person trying to stay on-topic while the other keeps yelling about events in made-up land? Yes, that does sound pretty familiar.
 
The argument has already been called; it's fine for the Democrats.

If leading Democrats have suggested this election will be rigged by voter fraud, that would absolutely not be fine; it would be equivalent to (and just as irresponsible as) what Trump has done.

Those tweets don't seem to suggest that though.....
 
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Stay on that topic, please. Try providing even the barest of arguments as to why Gore and Trump are comparable.
I gave you a few reasons. Gore's case was completely different than what Trump is facing. I used Gore cause he was the only candidate in recent time, that I can recall, ask for a re-count. Something Trump says he might do.
Actually, I'm several posts into trying to directly address the subject you yourself chose - Gore and Trump - and you keep veering off into random Hillary diatribes.
Cause Hillary and the DNC is the reason Trump is skeptical. How many times do I need to say that?
events in made-up land
Nothing I've said is made up. It's all in the history books... But since you think every thing coming out of my mouth is made up, we are done with this convo.

Have a good day.
 
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I'm looking up this "write-in" candidate thing...I guess you can start here.

Apparently, there's a short list of candidates you can literally write in the blank space, and it varies from state-to-state. For example, in Alabama, I can write-in exactly one choice: William Kelsey Graham*. Note that Google doesn't even show anything automatically in the search bar when you type his first and last name with "president" next to it. I figured I spelled it wrong. But he also does Watercraft Blessings.

And that was the other thing I wondered...what if you spell the write-in name wrong? Are the scribbles and chicken scratches going to scrutinized like the chads that once hung from a seasonal variety of Floridian ballot (now thought to be extinct)? But it also means you can't count nor elect Giant Meteor, Donald Duck, Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man, Ken Bone, Dan Gurney, Checkers the Dog, nor Socks the Cat. Sorry about that.

The mind reels at such trivial matters, especially on a Friday.

* Not paid for by Kelsey Graham, nor an endorsement nor denial of Kelsey Graham, not running against Kelsey Graham, but if it really means that much to you...he does live on a Silverstone Lane, which is a boon to the half-dozen fans of aerodromes-turned-racing circuits in the Great State of Alabama. Especially those with very important vessels.
 
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I gave you a few reasons.

Where?

Gore's case was completely different than what Trump is facing.

So we agree that your comparison makes no sense then?

I used Gore cause he was the only candidate in recent time, that I can recall, ask for a re-count. Something Trump says he might do.

No, Trump is suggesting something quite different than a simple recount. He's telling Americans before they even vote that their votes will be ignored. He's saying that if he loses, then the election isn't legitimate; if you think he'd accept the results of a recount that still has him losing, you haven't really listened to what he's saying.

Nothing I've said is made up. It's all in the history books...

Every credible analysis of the chances of a rigged general election has concluded that it's all but impossible. And there certainly isn't any history book that will tell of it happening in the past either.

Your continued assertion that it's going to happen, against all evidence to the contrary, is fantasy. Made-up.

There's also your claim that this is a site full of people who disagree with you even when you're right. Because... well, I don't really know what our supposed motives are.

But since you think every thing coming out of my mouth is made up, we are done with this convo.

If you can't handle people challenging your ideas, then maybe you should consider keeping them to yourself.

Or, find some thicker skin, and be prepared to defend your claims with actual evidence, instead of just lashing out at anyone who doesn't agree with you.
 
So we agree that your comparison makes no sense then?
Yes and No.

No, Trump is suggesting something quite different than a simple recount. He's telling Americans before they even vote that their votes will be ignored. He's saying that if he loses, then the election isn't legitimate; if you think he'd accept the results of a recount that still has him losing, you haven't really listened to what he's saying.
I never said anything of the sort.

Your continued assertion that it's going to happen, against all evidence to the contrary, is fantasy. Made-up.
I said we'll see.
We'll see how it turns out won't we? Ain't much we can do now except hurry up and wait, who knows, might be another 2000 election, we'll see.


If you can't handle people challenging your ideas, then maybe you should consider keeping them to yourself.

Or, find some thicker skin, and be prepared to defend your claims with actual evidence, instead of just lashing out at anyone who doesn't agree with you.
Find some thicker skin? You called me a liar, and said I'm making up stories. Not everything has a link to provide. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. I provided links in our last debate. You ignored them. I'm not going to waste my time with you again, since you won't read my answers. You keep finding that one line.
Like you keep saying I shouldn't compare it to Gore. That's all you are worried about. Not the actual rigging that HAS BEEN DONE TO DATE...
 
The way the US political system is constructed doesn't lend itself to that goal. It has developed, de facto, into an exclusionary two-party system. Even if it were not, a first-past-the-post voting system is not likely to give you the option of voting for someone who closely represents your own position. You would probably be less frustrated under a proportional representation parliamentary system. Totally hypothetical, of course, because it would be impossible to reconstruct the US political system in that way, but it would be fascinating to see how the various forces at play among the US electorate would re-align themselves in a proportional voting system.

Trump, Giuliani, Clinton, Cardinal Dolan & Henry Kissinger sitting at the same table for the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner in NYC tonight. :cheers:
One gets the sense that the US has a lack of ideas getting though in favor of block party positions. Trump filled this void. I'd say that the one big problem is the block nature, and the geographic "territories" of these block party positioning means that one parties "positions" controls a certain area much like the communist party in China. It works well enough, but this is the US after all, and China is Asia after all, we all know how Asians are. Good at math, bad at driving. :sly:
 
In my eyes Trump is the 3rd party candidate.

You're right - he is. I think it's possible that the GOP will implode after this election. If Trump took the "deplorables" with him, as well as a lot of "social conservatives" & a percentage of "white working class" voters, it would leave the libertarian wing of the traditional GOP free to move to a more clearly libertarian position, with "establishment conservatives" having to decide where to throw in. This is sort of what happened in Canada when Mulroney's Progressive Conservative party was decimated in the 1993 election.

This would leave the Democrats in a dominant position ... unless the Bernie wing broke away. That would lead to a complete reshuffling of American politics. However, given the way the US political system is constructed, & the reality of plurality voting, I have no idea how that would play out in practice.
 
Yes and No.

Okay. Why no? Let's revisit my initial rebuttal:

The Gore campaign understandably asked for a recount in a very close race, and in response to emerging information about faulty voting mechanisms.

Trump is bellowing about voter fraud and election rigging, when there is no evidence that either has ever happened on a significant scale, before the election has even happened.

If you still think it's a valid comparison to make, then provide just one concrete, specific refutation of what I said above.

I never said anything of the sort.

When you said this:

I used Gore cause he was the only candidate in recent time, that I can recall, ask for a re-count. Something Trump says he might do.

That's exactly what you're implying. If you want to reduce Trump's fearmongering to the simple act of asking for a recount, it logically follows that you think he'd be satisfied with the results of that recount. Otherwise, what's the point?

The truth is, you know that what Trump has been saying is far more incendiary than a simple recount. He's undermining, in the minds of a huge chunk of the electorate, the entire basis of our government.

That's the difference; that's why the comparison falls apart immediately.

I said we'll see.

No, you said:

She is setting up this election

That's not speculation, that's a statement of fact. For which there is no proof, nor any reasonable basis for thinking it's even possible.

Find some thicker skin? You called me a liar, and said I'm making up stories. Not everything has a link to provide.

And anything without substantiation should be viewed with skepticism.

On the question of rigging a general election, I provided an article that cited several reasons it was extremely unlikely to happen, and that contained quotes from people a lot smarter than I saying that rigging an election is impossible.

You, on the other hand, have provided nothing other than your own feeling that it could happen, but you haven't suggested one plausible scenario in which it could, you haven't cited any credible sources that think it can be done, and you haven't come up with a single instance of it happening in the past.

I provided links in our last debate. You ignored them.

Not agreeing that your links prove your claims isn't the same as ignoring them.

I'm not going to waste my time with you again, since you won't read my answers. You keep finding that one line.

What does it matter if it's one line or ten?

If you say something that's unfounded or inaccurate, it's going to be challenged.

Like you keep saying I shouldn't compare it to Gore. That's all you are worried about.

No, it's not all I'm worried about. I'm also worried about the possibility of handing our country over to a petulant egomaniac who hasn't presented even one concrete policy idea. But that's not on-topic (the topic that, again,you brought up), so I'm not going off on tangential rants about it.

Not the actual rigging that HAS BEEN DONE TO DATE...

You're again ignoring the massive differences between the primaries and the general.

What we learned from the Democratic primary is that the Democratic party wanted Hillary to be the nominee, and they engaged in some very unethical behavior to see that it happened.

We also know that if they tried the same thing now, in the general, that it would never work. It would require that the Republicans play along and let it happen. Why on earth would they? Do you have an even slightly-plausible answer to that question?
 
One gets the sense that the US has a lack of ideas getting though in favor of block party positions. Trump filled this void. I'd say that the one big problem is the block nature, and the geographic "territories" of these block party positioning means that one parties "positions" controls a certain area much like the communist party in China. It works well enough, but this is the US after all, and China is Asia after all, we all know how Asians are. Good at math, bad at driving. :sly:

Not trying to nitpick you Rich, but that last line is a bit of a head-scratcher.

Source: Han Han


han-han-racecar.jpg
 
...which is ALL according to the plan.

I'm still waiting for Clinton to pass Trump a one dollar bill, vis-à-vis Randolph and Mortimer, but we might have to wait a few weeks for that.

Good to have you back, @Duke!
 
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I'm still waiting for Clinton to pass Trump a one dollar bill, vis-à-vis Randolph and Mortimer, but we might have to wait a few weeks for that.

It'd be the organizers of the two parties.

"Given the right kind of encouragement, I bet that criminal could be voted into office and run our country."
"We'd have to put her up against the worst kind of person... real scum."
 
It's clear most municipal police, county sheriffs, fair numbers of military officers and enlisted, most alpha males plus any other leftover "deplorables" constitute the basis of Trump's support. And perhaps a few angry Bernie people and a smattering of libertarian and paleoconservative academics. So, lacking favorable mainstream media coverage at about a 20:1 ratio, it would seem Trump has but little chance to prevail in a fair election.

But what if it's not fair? What if Trump will not concede defeat on election night and demands recounts, files lawsuits and calls for criminal investigations and charges?? And what if he is supported by large numbers of governors, AG's, prosecutors, lawmen and military and ordinary voters in a concerted, protracted (possibly violent?) and maybe successful effort to prevent inauguration of the 45th President?

How fun would THAT be? :eek:
 
It's clear most municipal police, county sheriffs, fair numbers of military officers and enlisted, most alpha males plus any other leftover "deplorables" constitute the basis of Trump's support. And perhaps a few angry Bernie people and a smattering of libertarian and paleoconservative academics. So, lacking favorable mainstream media coverage at about a 20:1 ratio, it would seem Trump has but little chance to prevail in a fair election.

But what if it's not fair? What if Trump will not concede defeat on election night and demands recounts, files lawsuits and calls for criminal investigations and charges?? And what if he is supported by large numbers of governors, AG's, prosecutors, lawmen and military and ordinary voters in a concerted, protracted (possibly violent?) and maybe successful effort to prevent inauguration of the 45th President?

How fun would THAT be? :eek:

He is winning the Independent vote too. His odds of getting to 270 are about 15% as of yesterday.

I remember the aftermath of the Bush-Gore election and how much uncertainty there was, but this divisiveness feels much different than that. Maybe we'll just get to hold on to Obama longer until the recounts are done.

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I remember the aftermath of the Bush-Gore election and how much uncertainty there was, but this divisiveness feels much different than that. Maybe we'll just get to hold on to Obama longer until the recounts are done.

Neither Bush not Gore were particularly inspiring candidates, but I don't remember anything like the level of antipathy to either of them that exists now (that is, until after Bush took the US into the Iraq War).

It's clear most municipal police, county sheriffs, fair numbers of military officers and enlisted, most alpha males plus any other leftover "deplorables" constitute the basis of Trump's support. And perhaps a few angry Bernie people and a smattering of libertarian and paleoconservative academics. So, lacking favorable mainstream media coverage at about a 20:1 ratio, it would seem Trump has but little chance to prevail in a fair election.

But what if it's not fair? What if Trump will not concede defeat on election night and demands recounts, files lawsuits and calls for criminal investigations and charges?? And what if he is supported by large numbers of governors, AG's, prosecutors, lawmen and military and ordinary voters in a concerted, protracted (possibly violent?) and maybe successful effort to prevent inauguration of the 45th President?

How fun would THAT be? :eek:

I've never seen such "biased" coverage of a Presidential election - the entire MSM has been ranged against Trump ... in the end, even including Fox. But I think this is an indication of how appalling a candidate Trump has been. It's certainly not a reflection of HRC's popularity. Trump used his divisive rhetoric to carve his way through the GOP primaries, but when everyone was expecting him to do the sensible thing & "pivot" to a more reasonable position in the general, he didn't. In fact, as they say, he "doubled-down", insulting just about everybody outside his hard-core base. I really think he IS "that stupid" - believing in his own brilliance, not listening to his advisors & deluded by the enthusiasm mainfested at his huuuge campaign rallies.

Notwithstanding that you seem to be attracted to a Doomsday scenario, I don't see Republican governors rushing in to support Trump - they'll be focussed on protecting their own positions, & the GOP in general will be figuring out a way to try & put Trump behind them & move on.
 
If leading Democrats have suggested this election will be rigged by voter fraud, that would absolutely not be fine; it would be equivalent to (and just as irresponsible as) what Trump has done.

Those tweets don't seem to suggest that though.....
They don't have to suggest anything; there's already video evidence of them considering voter fraud to commit just that. It's just too late in this election to do it effectively according to them. Scott Foval is off running his mouth on camera claiming they've been busing in people for 50 years....

The point of the tweets is to point the typical Liberal hypocrisy; throwing around the word "rigged" is fine for them, but not Trump. What exactly is rigged in Washington for the big guys? What is this rigged system Hillary is quoting? It wouldn't be this same system that screwed Sanders out of a nomination would it?
 
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