Polyphony Digital is "Considering" Releasing Gran Turismo on PC

[Joey D]

Implying they are reliable and completely cheat-free. The reality isn't as simple as you think it is.

Even the best anti-cheat software can be defeated and it will never be 100% foolproof, but the goal is to make it difficult enough so a vast majority of people won't cheat and the rest can be mopped up with moderators/admins. I can't think of any game that is 100% completely cheat-free.

Bold assumption.

It's bold to assume a multi-billion dollar company has the resources to develop its own anti-cheat software? That doesn't make any sense. To my knowledge, Sony already uses Denuvo on the PS5, so it's not like they don't have the framework in place already. If they wanted to, they could develop their own, proprietary system. How cost-effective it would be though is another story, which is likely why they rely on a third party.

 

[AmyUD06]

It's bold to assume a multi-billion dollar company has the resources to develop its own anti-cheat software? That doesn't make any sense. To my knowledge, Sony already uses Denuvo on the PS5, so it's not like they don't have the framework in place already. If they wanted to, they could develop their own, proprietary system. How cost-effective it would be though is another story, which is likely why they rely on a third party.

GTA Online would like a word. Rockstar easily has the resources of Sony, and yet has been unable to stop the rampant cheating in GTAO. It's to the point that the PC version is unplayable in most public sessions.

 

[Joey D]

GTA Online would like a word. Rockstar easily has the resources of Sony, and yet has been unable to stop the rampant cheating in GTAO. It's to the point that the PC version is unplayable in most public sessions.

Is Rockstar actively trying to do something about it though? I seem to remember a couple of months ago, Rockstar removed pretty much anything to do with anti-cheating in GTA.

Rockstar likely has the resources to do it and likely could do it, but they're still making so much money on the game what would be the point?

 

[Nenkai]

Even the best anti-cheat software can be defeated and it will never be 100% foolproof, but the goal is to make it difficult enough so a vast majority of people won't cheat and the rest can be mopped up with moderators/admins. I can't think of any game that is 100% completely cheat-free.

It still happens. It's been discussed earlier in this thread. Possibility being there = doors shut entirely by locking the game under a sandbox (which is the console in this case). That's always been their mindset since GT Sport. Absolutely no cheating of any kind.

It's bold to assume a multi-billion dollar company has the resources to develop its own anti-cheat software?

It's bold to assume that even making one is a straightforward process regardless of the resources they can pour into it. Anti-cheat regardless has to be tailored for each genre, and i'd argue that a racing game is perhaps the hardest to even verify, especially when you think about how much online-lag has to be allowed in the first place.

Sony already uses Denuvo on the PS5

Yet to be proven let alone used in general. The same vaporware announcement they've made against emulation protection on the Switch.

which is likely why they rely on a third party.

Taking your own example, EAC, it has already been researched and exploited, multiple times. A third party proprietary solution that does not adapt to the game's actual context is not exactly prone to be effective. Anti-tampering perhaps, but methods around it already exist.

 

[Dave A]

Is Rockstar actively trying to do something about it though? I seem to remember a couple of months ago, Rockstar removed pretty much anything to do with anti-cheating in GTA.

Rockstar likely has the resources to do it and likely could do it, but they're still making so much money on the game what would be the point?

I think anti-cheat software is harder to develop than you are anticipating. It theortetically can be done, and Sony likely do have the resources should they want to pump that much attention into it, but then there is a question over how effective it will be and how long it will be supported. It's not something you can stick a dozen developers on for a few months and done. Really the question is more that given how problematic, time and development heavy something like this is, should they even bother trying?

The PS4/5 makes it easy to stop hackers, you have to hack the console first then the game before which your hacked console is blocked by Sony. Sony do not have that power over PC users hardware and a PC doesn't need to be hacked to access a games source files, only the game itself. PS and consoles are completely different when it comes to hacking and modding games, which is why you only really see it thriving on consoles where the console is long out of production and no one really is looking at that anymore. But even today, I beleive you risk your PS3 can get blocked if it's hacked in a certain way and you go online with it.

 

[Joey D]

I think anti-cheat software is harder to develop than you are anticipating.

I'm not saying it's easy to develop, only that a company with the resources of Sony likely has the means to do it if they want. I have no idea what goes into the coding behind it, but I'm guessing it take significant resources to do so.

The PS4/5 makes it easy to stop hackers, you have to hack the console first then the game before which your hacked console is blocked by Sony. Sony do not have that power over PC users hardware and a PC doesn't need to be hacked to access a games source files, only the game itself. PS and consoles are completely different when it comes to hacking and modding games, which is why you only really see it thriving on consoles where the console is long out of production and no one really is looking at that anymore. But even today, I beleive you risk your PS3 can get blocked if it's hacked in a certain way and you go online with it.

You can mod games on the PC, that's for sure, but almost every modern game has an account connected to it in someway. While you can't ban the PC itself, you can ban the account. If cheating really does become an issue, all Sony would need to do is create their own launcher with a linked account and then ban that account if it's caught cheating. Valve already does thing with its titles and you can lose your entire Steam account over it.

 

[RacinLei]

@Dave A

Or like Microsoft, release a consol with a default access to developer mode to emulate ps and other games. Xbox is always the first consol for cheating because of there windows based bios, and that on purpose. Its basicly a selling point because of the lag of proper software 🤣

No releas on pc no need to waste money for anticheat software, that simple.

 

[Dave A]

I'm not saying it's easy to develop, only that a company with the resources of Sony likely has the means to do it if they want. I have no idea what goes into the coding behind it, but I'm guessing it take significant resources to do so.

You can mod games on the PC, that's for sure, but almost every modern game has an account connected to it in someway. While you can't ban the PC itself, you can ban the account. If cheating really does become an issue, all Sony would need to do is create their own launcher with a linked account and then ban that account if it's caught cheating. Valve already does thing with its titles and you can lose your entire Steam account over it.

Sure you can ban accounts but you're largely relying on cheating being spotted for that and then you have the issue of where you draw the line for banning accounts which is a whole new mess albeit it is a mess that can be tidied up or just shoved under the rug depending on the persuasion of those in charge of that side of things. Accounts can also be bypassed, if you know what you're doing there's not much that can stop you on a PC once you've figured out the encryption and how to unpack the files.

Like PC, you don't have to hack an account to exploit a games source code for cheating. Personally I'm not bothered about games being hacked/modded, a lot of PC games are better for it IMO. The area it's an issue is competetive onlyine play which is something I'm not interested in personally.

 

[Veinz]

GTA Online would like a word. Rockstar easily has the resources of Sony, and yet has been unable to stop the rampant cheating in GTAO. It's to the point that the PC version is unplayable in most public sessions.

Call of Duty Warzone had the worst cheating I’ve ever seen but the developers were able to make a proper anti cheat for it and now it’s hardly a problem.

People being scared of cheaters is no reason to stop the gaming industry from moving forward. People on all platforms should be able to play together.

 

[AmyUD06]

Call of Duty Warzone had the worst cheating I’ve ever seen but the developers were able to make a proper anti cheat for it and now it’s hardly a problem.

People being scared of cheaters is no reason to stop the gaming industry from moving forward. People on all platforms should be able to play together.

"Hardly a problem" is not "completely zero problem." I don't play any CoD games so I can't comment specifically on that.

It's not a matter of being "scared" of cheaters. In GTA Online, for example, every single course record for races is a few seconds. What kind of Gran Turismo online experience would it be if every time trial record was basically worthless or cheaters qualified with sub-10-second lap times?

GTAO was incredibly fun when it was only on consoles...and probably still is in those realms. As soon as the PC version released, I jumped over to it, and everything went to **** in a matter of months. But why should Rockstar care when the in-game economy is so out of whack (every new car that's released costs millions and the average earn rate without doing heists is under $100k an hour) and people keep buying cash cards?

Listen, I'm all for GT on PC, but I'm primarily a single-player type of person (I think I've done maybe 2 races in Sport mode since launch?), but yeah I recognize the faults of it potentially coming to that platform.

 

[GaugeForever]

Why? Games like iRacing and Project Cars use EAC and Need for Speed uses PunkBuster. Anti-cheating software exists and has been implemented for racing games.

Sony is a multi-billion dollar company too, if they desired to create their own anti-cheat software or protocols, they likely could do it without too much difficulty.

It's been beaten to death and frankly, as a software dev, I'm exhausted explaining it. Y'all have fun racing against cheaters, if they do release it to PC, I suspect crossplay won't last very long anyways so I don't even know why I'm trying to convince a bunch of people who don't know the first thing about software or games development. It's ok guys, EAC will make sure people don't cheat because this rando internet person says, that's how this works. I believe them.

 

[Joey D]

It's been beaten to death and frankly, as a software dev, I'm exhausted explaining it. Y'all have fun racing against cheaters, if they do release it to PC, I suspect crossplay won't last very long anyways so I don't even know why I'm trying to convince a bunch of people who don't know the first thing about software or games development. It's ok guys, EAC will make sure people don't cheat because this rando internet person says, that's how this works. I believe them.

Ok? I asked why to your statement saying it was harder to implement anti-cheat in a game like GT over a game like World of Tanks. But hey, I guess if you say so, then that must be how it works. I don't know and you don't know me, so judging anything about either of our competencies is kind of moot.

All I was saying is that there are racing games that use anti-cheat software with the big online title being iRacing. If they can figure it out, there's no reason why Sony, a multibillion-dollar company, can't figure it out if it wants to.

 

[Imari]

This premise is based on the assumption that all games have the same difficulties in preventing cheaters. This is very far from being the case. GT would have a MUCH harder time than say world of tanks, or rocket league. It's not apples to apples.

Serious question - why would something like GT be particularly hard compared to WoT or RL? I'm not seeing why one would be innately easier to cheat in than the other.

It's been beaten to death and frankly, as a software dev, I'm exhausted explaining it.

Okay? Mind pointing me to somewhere that I could learn then? Not all of us are professional software devs, but that doesn't mean that we're not interested and curious to learn. I'm sure you occasionally take interest in topics that are not software development.

It still happens. It's been discussed earlier in this thread. Possibility being there = doors shut entirely by locking the game under a sandbox (which is the console in this case). That's always been their mindset since GT Sport. Absolutely no cheating of any kind.

I mean, that's not entirely true. You can TAS stuff through Remote Play at the very least, so the idea that having the game on console is an absolute restriction on any sort of cheating isn't really correct.

This is why it's always silly to say that anything prevents cheating absolutely. Even on console, it's just a matter of time until the firmware gets hacked, or someone develops a work-around. I'd have thought you'd know this as well as anyone.

"Hardly a problem" is not "completely zero problem."

If this is the benchmark for how cheat resistant games need to be to be acceptable, no games would ever be made.

But why should Rockstar care when the in-game economy is so out of whack (every new car that's released costs millions and the average earn rate without doing heists is under $100k an hour) and people keep buying cash cards?

Well, quite. Why bother spending money on an anti-cheat solution when you're making money hand over fist on your game as it is?

Anti-cheat is only worthwhile if the developer will see a return on that investment. Usually online games quickly fall out of favour if there's rampant cheating, but GTAV is again a bit of an outlier. If anything, the cheats seem to encourage a lot of people to play, possibly based on the fact that the whole game is about being a criminal in the first place.

 

[Nenkai]

I mean, that's not entirely true. You can TAS stuff through Remote Play at the very least, so the idea that having the game on console is an absolute restriction on any sort of cheating isn't really correct.

This is why it's always silly to say that anything prevents cheating absolutely. Even on console, it's just a matter of time until the firmware gets hacked, or someone develops a work-around. I'd have thought you'd know this as well as anyone.

Or perhaps information about this is not generally well known of the public.

The implications for firmware hacking are much larger than cheating in some online game. Piracy comes to mind, and being able to log onto the PSN essentially compromises the integrity of all their online services.

If someone, somehow manages that (in modern days, PS4/PS5 don't require just one exploit to obtain full control of the console) they have two choices:

• Disclose the explolt(s), potentially risk a C&D, will be patched within days.
• Claim a 5-figures bug bounty. Exploit is undisclosed until it is patched, and Sony has granted explicit agreement to it. When that happens, the delay is usually more than half a year.

While option two is taken in 99% of cases, in either ways it should be considered as virtually impossible to cheat, unless you are a very skilled person (which by the way, most of those are now working as Security Researchers at Google), interested in nothing but cheating in some game, and willing to discard the money. That's irrealistic.

 

[apokf98]

this could increase the sales a lot .Think about it.I will insta buy it

 

[Johnny Caisse]

Same. I would play it a lot! I would love it!

 

[loafy]

Are sales really so bad they need to rush out a PC port?

I'm all for it but why now? Honestly it seems like a complete afterthought...

-Edit-

Does anyone remember B-Spec Remote Racing with Gran Turismo on the PS3?

They have been mulling over a PC release for years... It's just never happened.

This is an old one from 2008 about moving to PC one day.

Gran Turismo to hit the PC? | bit-tech.net

The creator of the Gran Turismo series has hinted in a German interview that the series may soon be coming to the PC.

www.bit-tech.net

A proper PC port is long overdue.

 

[Joey D]

Are sales really so bad they need to rush out a PC port?

I'm all for it but why now? Honestly it seems like a complete afterthought...

 

[AudiMan2011]

Are sales really so bad they need to rush out a PC port?

I'm all for it but why now? Honestly it seems like a complete afterthought...

God of War 2018 sold 23 million copies total with 5 million in the first month and got a PC port.

 

[Nebuc72]

Are sales really so bad they need to rush out a PC port?

I'm all for it but why now? Honestly it seems like a complete afterthought...

Where on earth did you make any of this conclusion from?

Rushing it out? "now"? Literally none of this is accurate to what's happening.

Even the title says they're just "considering" it, how did you make the jump to "rushing it out"??

 

[SU_Tempest]

Is Rockstar actively trying to do something about it though? I seem to remember a couple of months ago, Rockstar removed pretty much anything to do with anti-cheating in GTA.

Rockstar likely has the resources to do it and likely could do it, but they're still making so much money on the game what would be the point?

GTAO operates on the peer-to-peer principle instead of dedicated servers. That alone makes it incredibly easy to cheat and remain undetected. Whatever anti-cheat measures they have, if any at all, they don't work and they never did. The ban waves they initiated caught a lot of false positives, I have countless friends and acquaintances with a wrongfully-banned story, meanwhile people who I know have cheated openly and shamelessly have never been caught.

By and large, Rockstar absolutely doesn't give a rat's tail about curbing cheating. Even something as simple as community managed dedicated servers would go a long way to curbing cheating. I sincerely hope that's the route GT7 on PC goes, if for no other reason than players who want to run modded games could just congregate on modded game servers and not bother those who want vanilla. Even if realistically they probably won't.

 

[Fezzik]

In case you missed it, Kaz said something was lost in translation and they are not actively developing a PC port, or even really considering it, he’s just thought about it.

Gran Turismo 7: Latest news and discussion thread

Why does this make me feel things? It really feels like it has been a journey. Happy to be apart of the crowd :)

www.gtplanet.net

 

[SU_Tempest]

In case you missed it, Kaz said something was lost in translation and they are not actively developing a PC port, or even really considering it, he’s just thought about it.

Gran Turismo 7: Latest news and discussion thread

Why does this make me feel things? It really feels like it has been a journey. Happy to be apart of the crowd :)

www.gtplanet.net

Well, I guess that's that. Back to the proverbial hibernation chamber, put me on "defrost" when they actually plan to release on PC.

 

[equalitus]

I understand that this is a minority opinion, but as someone who has played the Forza series for a long time and seen what happens when a console only game is released for the PC, I say "No. Please don't do it."

Currently, FH5 is in terrible shape with cheaters doing whatever they want.
I don't want that to happen to GT.

It's easy to fix, but I'm not gonna say it's gonna take hours instead of days but gameplay exploits are but unrealistic efficiency factors in the virtual world. To have more choice of rules in lobbies and multiplayer is the solution to this phenomenon.

That’s my point though, Forza is already on PC. And in doing some quick research, Forza Horizon 5 has 80 more cars that GT7. So there’s not much that’s unique when comparing the two.

As for AC, I get that it’s not as user friendly, but if you have a PC and enjoy racing games why not take the realistic driving model over something that’s watered down? I’m not saying there isn’t a market for both, but I doubt there’s a lot of racing enthusiasts who bought a PC just to play a Forza/GT7 type game.


To each their own, but I’ve genuinely never understood why someone would prefer to driver a pickup truck over a race car in a racing game. I can also say that I know a few people (myself included) who switched to PC because the nostalgia of Gran Turismo is gone.

The main fun of GT was starting in a cheap road car and then upgrading and then a bit later buying the least expensive race cars. But there's way too many slow cars [and duplicates] in GT4&GT5&GT6. GT7 has decent amount of different and fun cars to drive and customize and upgrade or downgrade!

The best time to open the series up to PC would be with a new game built from the ground up with a PC version in mind, instead of trying to shoehorn it into the middle of GT7's shelf life.

If PD gives more options in the single player campaign then all good.

I'm a little surprised how few people are acknowledging that hacking will be out of control if this released on PC. Just like an FPS or any other commonly hacked online game on PC. I hope the communities are separated at least. I'm all for them making money and bringing GT to more people but MPer is bad enough without PC people hacking it up. People are going to think this is a great idea until the best time for an event is impossible. I'm a PC guy, but I can acknowledge that PC isn't so good for competitive multiplayer games.

Valve Anti-Cheat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are other methods also. I played Counter-strike years before "punk-buster" and VAC and it was very bad on many servers but then after VAC it was almost no cheating.

 

[jergto]

I really hope they do, ready to dump my ps5.

 

[eXtender]

PD is unable to fix bugs they themselves acknowledged 10 month ago in GT7 on a very limited hardware basis (PS4/5), so the mere thought they'd be able to make, let alone maintain a release on the hardware diversity hell that is the PC is just mind boggling to me at this point.

 

[chromatic9]

Yes it doesn't seem likely GT7 will come to PC. Some have speculated another team may be porting it but it's unlike other games and would require too much ongoing support. Perhaps when GT8 is coming they might bring some finished state GT7 to try it out or perhaps a stripped down version. Forza started off like that on PC.

I'd love to have GT on PC, just can't see PD doing it as they're behind with just GT7 on Playstation and move at a glacial pace.

 

[Imari]

Some have speculated another team may be porting it but it's unlike other games and would require too much ongoing support.

Would it? Why? The games it's most like are FM7 and FM3/4/5, and those seemed to do fine being supported on PC. And then there's a bunch more racing games that have parts that are similar at least.

I see no reason why GT7 would be any more difficult to support than any other similar modern game. I mean, apart from the fact that it's Polyphony, but if you're giving the port job to a secondary studio then they're out of the picture.

I'd love to have GT on PC, just can't see PD doing it as they're behind with just GT7 on Playstation and move at a glacial pace.

This is the problem, not that there's something fundamentally problematic about the game that would prevent having it on PC.

 

[GingerBredMan]

This game probably isn’t coming to PC. Too much of an uphill battle with making sure all PC wheels work. And there’s a lot more competition compared t PS5. The only time to do this would have been when it launched everywhere else.

The main fun of GT was starting in a cheap road car and then upgrading and then a bit later buying the least expensive race cars. But there's way too many slow cars [and duplicates] in GT4&GT5&GT6. GT7 has decent amount of different and fun cars to drive and customize and upgrade or downgrade!

The notion that GT7 is better at this than any of the previous GT games is pretty wild. GT7 has half as many cars as GT6 and there's plenty of duplicates.

 

[chromatic9]

Would it? Why? The games it's most like are FM7 and FM3/4/5, and those seemed to do fine being supported on PC. And then there's a bunch more racing games that have parts that are similar at least.

I see no reason why GT7 would be any more difficult to support than any other similar modern game. I mean, apart from the fact that it's Polyphony, but if you're giving the port job to a secondary studio then they're out of the picture.

No, I meant in relation to a finalized game like The Last of Us or Killzone. Would just need some compatibility updates for a third party port team and they move on.

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