Time will tell, but I’m convinced it will sell a lot of copies on PC. People aren’t modding AC to become GT for no reason. Maybe it won’t sell a great number of copies to people interested in true simulators but that’s a niche and they’re going for mass appeal.
Polyphony Digital is "Considering" Releasing Gran Turismo on PC
- Thread starter Jordan
- 351 comments
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- 127
- United States
I'm a little surprised how few people are acknowledging that hacking will be out of control if this released on PC. Just like an FPS or any other commonly hacked online game on PC. I hope the communities are separated at least. I'm all for them making money and bringing GT to more people but MPer is bad enough without PC people hacking it up. People are going to think this is a great idea until the best time for an event is impossible. I'm a PC guy, but I can acknowledge that PC isn't so good for competitive multiplayer games.
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- 2,239
- MI
Like people are hacking up iRacing? Hacking up Race Room? Hacking up Assetto Corsa Competizione?
I love all the mods for these titles and the way I can cheat through them daily. Especially online where their checksums and current anti-cheat software mean nothing to everyday use. rFactor server races don't have any cheating either. How is it that multiple titles have no problem in this area but the initial assumption is that GT is going to be sliced to death?
Wouldn't it be better to see if it comes out first then to assume that it won't even have the simplest of precautions that we've already seen on PC titles that work.
Forgot to throw AMS2 in there as well. You can have mods installed but can't race online with any of the official cars altered in any way.
Comparing GT7 to full-on simulators where there is little to no incentive to cheat is non-sense.
The extreme cases are games like iRacing which has a "passive" anti-cheat, in the sense that content, which you have to buy, is a deterrent for instance. Otherwise just bad driving gets you kicked from most competitive games.
GT7 is still a game mostly intended for casuals, and online-saves is enough evidence that single-player cheating is also unwanted, and accordingly so considering what went on in GT5/6. It's not about having a low amount of cheating. It's about having the possibility gone. And again, it's proven to work.
The extreme cases are games like iRacing which has a "passive" anti-cheat, in the sense that content, which you have to buy, is a deterrent for instance. Otherwise just bad driving gets you kicked from most competitive games.
GT7 is still a game mostly intended for casuals, and online-saves is enough evidence that single-player cheating is also unwanted, and accordingly so considering what went on in GT5/6. It's not about having a low amount of cheating. It's about having the possibility gone. And again, it's proven to work.
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- 549
- Greece
- geo_opel_tigra
I don't care if the next gt be on pc..
All i care is to not make it as crosplay game..
Nobody can win the cheaters in pc...
All i care is to not make it as crosplay game..
Nobody can win the cheaters in pc...
- 127
- United States
I knew this comparison was going to come up. If anyone thinks PD will invest the same effort into cleaning up results let me know. Hacking absolutely DOES happen in iRacing, they are simply very active about it. I have yet to meet a AAA company that is as active about it. It is also extremely cost prohibitive to hack iRacing and get caught because you have to buy into all but the most novice series. I guess you can hope though. Outside of iRacing, most competitive racing is done in small player controlled leagues/groups that police themselves.
It is theoretically possible PD will police the game well enough to prevent cheating, I HIGHLY doubt it though. No PC anticheat actually works, anyone who thinks this is not informed.
EDIT: I don't think asking to have the online communities be separate is a large ask. You still get to have GT on PC and can race competitively against other PC players. For me one of the primary draws of playing certain games on console is that the scope of cheating is dramatically reduced. I'm sure it happens, nothing is immune, but it is not nearly as out of control as on PC. PC for me is where I play my single player and non-competitive games. If the two online players are joined I will likely just stop playing online altogether. I suppose one benefit to releasing on PC is that it won't take long for someone to create an offline version of the game lol.
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- 438
- Australia
Well, I can see Gran Turismo 7 and Forza Motorsport Reboot's graphics look pretty eye candied as their respective developers decided to use a higher budget for the game graphics than the driving model, optimized both for the controller pad and racing wheels, resulting in them both being Simcades.
Meanwhile, Assetto Corsa Competizione appears that its developer use a higher budget on the driving model than the graphics, resulting it being hardcore Sim racing plus its controls are 100% optimized for racing wheel and it's not recommended to use controller pads.
- 16,258
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
- 2,205
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
I posted a link earlier in this thread to a Psyonix presentation where they talk about how Rocket League was made cheatproof. But for people who don't want to spend the time watching it to understand, I'll summarise how it works. All the physics runs on the server, so it's impossible to hack the game's physics unless you hack the server. But the game also runs the physics on the client, to avoid it being laggy. So long as the eventual updates from the server match what the client has calculated, the player doesn't experience lag. If someone did hack the physics on the client, it would only harm them, as they'd keep seeing things reset on their screen every time the game decides what the client has calculated doesn't match what it's receiving from the server. No other player would see anything odd at all.
What is much harder to stop is visual modification, which is why it's so hard to stop wallhacking in fps games, but there's nowhere near as much to gain from that in driving games. In FH4, I believe people were hacking the physics by simply changing the wheel speed variables in memory. If the physics run on the server, that sort of thing becomes impossible (unless you find a way to hack the server). But if there were a track where visibility is reduced due to walls or buildings, for example, then it would be possible for a pure client side visual mod/hack to remove those features to give a small advantage.
A Playstation or Xbox is so PC-sized (and thermally sensitive like a PC) already, my gaming laptop is easier to fit into what used to be a console-only space. However, I concede that I had the advantage of using a computer desk in the first place -- the Wii and Wii U used to live on a keyboard tray that now houses the KB+M.
I have always praised the advantages of consoles, which remain prominent in the Nintendo Switch. But as far as I'm concerned the power & multimedia arms races of the Playstation and Xbox caused them to devolve into closed-box PCs with no USP over a PC except exclusive titles -- which have been slipping away, per the subject of this thread.
So now I say, to anyone considering a PC instead of another Playstation or Xbox -- go for it! There is practically nothing to lose, because the frustrations have become the same, but a PC offers serious advantages in exchange.
- 127
- United States
If it was this easy then FPS would have resolved this issue. World of tanks has done what you say and it works (kind of) even though it's still possible to hack other aspects of the game. Perhaps they will have that kind of granularity for cheat detection. As a software developer I can tell you that operation (the rocket league one) is VERY expensive at scale. If they do it then I will be surprised. Time will tell. Keeping in mind such an algorithm would need to include every single tune every car could have. I will bet you large sums of money this will never happen.
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- 2,099
- Zimbabwe
Wonder how easy it'd be to paint more obvious braking markers or ideal lines onto every track. Or even mod the cones back in.
- 777
- Canada
- 13,882
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Right. That'd be why the big esports games definitely aren't PC-based. Nobody wants to play competitive multiplayer on PC because it's such a nightmare of cheating and bots. It's impossible to find a match on PC in any FPS, MOBA, RTS or fighting game these days because cheating is so rampant that simply no one plays any more. It's a ghost town, and if consoles didn't exist there would be no competitive gaming at all.
- 573
- France
- SUTempest
I guess you're a PC guy who's never heard of Counter-Strike, League of Legends, Dota2, Apex Legends, Rainbow Six: Siege, and a shovel-load of other games that are staples of the eSports scene...
- 2,205
- United Kingdom
- breeminator
- breeminator
As I said, you can't solve visual hacks such as wallhacking this way. You also can't prevent aimbots, for example, as those could be achieved without even running any code on the client (intercept the hdmi data to get the images, and use a usb cable to send inputs to the game, run everything on an external machine). You could do that on a console as well as pc.
- 777
- Canada
“If you no longer alter code that exists, you're no longer a PC Gamer.”
- Ayrton Senna, probably.
- Ayrton Senna, probably.
- 9,703
- Portland, OR
- Jump_Ace
- JUMPxACE
Yes, any sort of checksum that is required to run at all times would go a long ways. I don't know if it'd be fool-proof as whatever is doing the checksum of the file system would need to be locked down too. And not just a checksum at the beginning of entering an online lobby and/or when you boot the game up, but also at random times during an online/offline race.
Jerome
- 127
- United States
I'm a software dev, until a forum expert can tell me how PD will be able to calculate car physics for every car and tune server side, I'm going to say you have no idea how expensive (computation wise) that is. Some games can make this work where the rules are known and somewhat simple, like rocket league and world of tanks. At best they might be able to make a "fudgy" system which would still be exploitable and would likely have false positives. Perhaps they might make a system that only prevents what isn't possible on the maximum end of cars. Well then all the other cars in the game would still be exploitable. Even if you say they will only cover BoP cars, that's still an absolutely ridiculous number of calculations to make on a server, for every player. I frankly don't even know how someone can claim this can work lol. Even if they had the computational power, which they don't, the man hour effort alone would be staggering.
Look at grip alone. Think about the absolutely insane amount of variables and calculations that go into that one thing. That's just ONE PIECE. On racing line vs off racing line, dirty parts of the track, different surfaces, rain level, track temp, heat, wear, tire type, etc. You're telling me that they will calculate this on a server, in real time, for every player, and every possible combination of variables? Again, this is just grip, not all the other things the game is calculating. Saying things like "rocket league does it" just shows how little you understand what's happening. You're comparing a grape to a 3 course meal.
The game will be exploited on PC, the only question is, will PD allow them to play with console peeps?
EDIT: On top of all of this, let's assume for argument's sake that they can achieve this (they can't). PC players would still be able to make automated systems to drive the car perfectly for them. You might be in second thinking you want to pressure the guy ahead to make a mistake but it's not a real player, it's a bot.
Look at grip alone. Think about the absolutely insane amount of variables and calculations that go into that one thing. That's just ONE PIECE. On racing line vs off racing line, dirty parts of the track, different surfaces, rain level, track temp, heat, wear, tire type, etc. You're telling me that they will calculate this on a server, in real time, for every player, and every possible combination of variables? Again, this is just grip, not all the other things the game is calculating. Saying things like "rocket league does it" just shows how little you understand what's happening. You're comparing a grape to a 3 course meal.
The game will be exploited on PC, the only question is, will PD allow them to play with console peeps?
EDIT: On top of all of this, let's assume for argument's sake that they can achieve this (they can't). PC players would still be able to make automated systems to drive the car perfectly for them. You might be in second thinking you want to pressure the guy ahead to make a mistake but it's not a real player, it's a bot.
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- 29,991
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
You could probably cover loaner cars by just having the data for those stored on the server rather than locally so when you enter a race using a loaner car the server tells the game how that car is set up and performs etc. But it's still a big job and even if they manage to handle that right leaves everything else.
They would probably need the servers to pull the car data from the game and run thier own PP calculation using the data from the game and then see if they get a match or discrepancy. So if a player creates a hack that stops their PP rising (performance Points children, nothing else) then the server would read thier car spec and produce a different PP caclulation.
It's all much easier said than done and there will still be exploits that could theoretically send false data to the server which would result in the server returning an incorrect PP calcualtion anyway.
Where there's a will there's usually a way, and as you say, the more complex a system is the harder it is to secure.
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- 29,991
- Cuddington, Cheshire
- JDA1982
If you're referring to the PP calcualtions then they're done locally on the PS4 and PS5. That doesn't really factor into preventing hacks and cheating on PC should the game be ported to that platform.How does the ps4 (released in 2013) do the calculations? I believe people confuse gt7 with iracing/rfactor/acc?
Hacking a game on console is a different proposition to doing it on a PC, for a start you typicaly have to hack the console itself first, then you run a big risk of your console being blocked as soon as you try to go online with it. That itself makes GT7 on console a very difficult game to modify as the game itself needs to be always online for 95% of it's features to work, so as soon as you hack your PS4 or PS5 you can't access most of the game anyway.
That doesn't work the same on PC as a. no one can block your PC like Sony can block your Playstation and b. you don't need to hack your PC to access the games source files in the first place.
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