Polyphony has lost the plot.

[RotorHed]

They used that tagline since 1997. Why would you assume that the continued use of a tagline introduced two decades ago would be an indicator of change?



I don't know what quote you're reading, but the one you posted earlier says that they match players of equal skill and balance the performance of the cars. Where exactly do you see anything regarding more realism?

The other quote (the one you didn't post) says that they want to raise the status of gaming - there's not a single word there either about realism.

What point is it you’re hoping to make because it’s lost on me...?

You can go to Gran-turismo.com and read their marketing blurb. Or go and check Kaz’s interviews.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Yeah, there's problems but right now, as far as console gaming goes, they're the only true competitive racing game in town. Sure it's iRacing Lite, but it's simultaneously feeding a niche market while actually creating a newer market of customers who never knew they wanted to have a clean racing game.

As long as they use GTsport as their racing platform and continually add more content I think they'll be fine.

 

[JulesDennis]

Yeah, there's problems but right now, as far as console gaming goes, they're the only true competitive racing game in town. Sure it's iRacing Lite, but it's simultaneously feeding a niche market while actually creating a newer market of customers who never knew they wanted to have a clean racing game.

As long as they use GTsport as their racing platform and continually add more content I think they'll be fine.

SMS has e-sports done in Pcars I and has e-sports in Pcars 2.
The only thing that is different is how they do that and that GTS(because its a GT title) has bigger player base (and more "active").

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

SMS has e-sports done in Pcars I and has e-sports in Pcars 2.
The only thing that is different is how they do that and that GTS(because its a GT title) has bigger player base (and more "active").

my mistake then. do those games have a better SR system that promotes clean racing?

 

[JulesDennis]

my mistake then. do those games have a better SR system that promotes clean racing?

Pcars 2 has a similar ranking system in order to make groups of people.(Clean/dirty/Fast/Slow).
GTS has one.
iRacing does that for almost a decade-another example-.
Those systems do not "promote" clean racing,but group people (or try to do that) using skill (pace) and how clean or not they are as the two major points/factors.

 

[eran0004]

Regarding whether Kaz/PD has explicitly stated that they want to emulate real racing or not:

We can bicker about this and go dig up supporting evidence for both sides all night, but no matter the outcome this will still hold true:

1. That we even have two points of view regarding the intentions for GTS is in itself proof of my original point: PD has no vision, or if they do they are unable to communicate it. Had they communicated clearly, we would not be having this discussion.

You'd have a point if you could actually show that they have made such a statement. So far it's looking like it's something that you have imagined.

2. @eran0004 , you and others are arguing that GTS is *not* intended to emulate RL racing.
Ok, I can respect the opinion

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. That has never been the focus of Gran Turismo and they never implied that it would change with GT Sport.

but frankly looking at the product I would argue that everything points to PD going out of their way to give the appearance of wanting to emulate real racing. Most ingredients of real racing is in there, even driver contracts for factory teams(!). Kaz is an self-described petrol head and has taken part in RL races.
Do you think it is credible to claim that the intent is not to emulate RL racing? No offence, but I think that is just a poor defence of the current lacklustre implementation of motorsport by PD,

Now you're literally moving the goalposts. First you say that because they hit a certain goal it has to mean that they aimed for it. Then you move the goal and say that because they missed the goal, now they missed what they aimed for.

Really mate?
Your argument is that previous games did not have that aim,even though that is what they said they did?

What aim? Real Racing Simulator? The tagline never said that.

And that the title says Real Driving Simulator and not Real Racing Simulator?

That's not the title, that's the tagline. And yes, it says Real Driving - not Real Racing.

It is a simulator or not?PD claims it is.Its in the title.(I never said they actually do that btw).

It depends on what you mean by simulator. It does simulate some aspects of driving, but it doesn't simulate every aspect of driving. When it comes to racing it doesn't simulate much more than the vehicle dynamics. Above all else, it's a racing game.

"Its not a Racing but driving"

In the tagline, yes. There is racing in the game. But you can have racing without having realistic racing, as is evident from all the previous Gran Turismo games.

Yet PD (already posted) :
"The Sport mode is the future of online racing, proposed by the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) and Gran Turismo. The ‘Advanced Matchmaking System’ matches players with the same level of skill and sportsmanship together, and the BoP (Balance of Performance) will equalize the performance of the race machines, creating a fair and exciting motorsport in an online environment."

Racing and realism are not the same word, although at first glance you may be fooled by them starting on the same letter.

So they claim to simulate driving and racing in this product.1+1=2 simple as that.

No. They claim to simulate real driving, and whether or not they do a good job is always up for debate. They don't claim to simulate real racing.

1+1=2, but what you're trying to do is more like apple+pear=orange.

What point is it you’re hoping to make because it’s lost on me...?

You can go to Gran-turismo.com and read their marketing blurb. Or go and check Kaz’s interviews.

The point is that it is not a stated goal of Gran Turismo Sport to emulate real life racing. I'm not surprised that it's lost on you though.

There is no such statement on gran-turismo.com. If you know of an interview where there is, please direct me to it.

 

[SCCAdeanRX-7]

No..... they haven't.

 

[Foxis]

You'd have a point if you could actually show that they have made such a statement. So far it's looking like it's something that you have imagined.

Turns out you are right, and I am wrong. I have no problem admitting that.

I still stand by my statement that they have lost the plot though. It's only worse than I thought:

"This Gran Turismo is really geared towards people who are playing racing games for the first time. The aim was not to create a hardcore racing simulator, per se. In this game, we've really gone to great extents to produce a beginners' school circuit experience. Most of the offline mode events are really geared towards people are playing racing games for the first time or people who've never driven cars before.

"And that's actually the focus that I had when we originally made the game back in 1997, but over the years, the players have become more hardcore and wanted more realism and harder games. And that's sort of the way that the game deviated. But our intent in making this title is to really rebuild Gran Turismo from the ground up so first-time players of racing games can feel the fun of driving. Driving is something that pretty much anyone can do, and if it seems difficult, that means that there's something wrong in the videogame. And that was a mistake that we wanted to correct."

An admirable ambition. But - and this is purely my opinion - the wrong direction. My time is likely better spent on iRacing after all. :-/

 

[eran0004]

My time is likely better spent on iRacing after all. :-/

That is very likely. Project Cars 2 is probably a better option for you as well.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

An admirable ambition. But - and this is purely my opinion - the wrong direction. My time is likely better spent on iRacing after all. :-/

iRacing appears to be the standard. Out of curiosity what motivated you to try out Gran Turismo Sport in place of a rather complex driving sim?

 

[Foxis]

That is very likely. Project Cars 2 is probably a better option for you as well.

Are you being naughty?
Project Cars 2 does not have a good reputation according to what I have read, so I have steered clear of it.

iRacing appears to be the standard. Out of curiosity what motivated you to try out Gran Turismo Sport in place of a rather complex driving sim?

1. More players and a more diverse offering of cars
2. FIA endorsement and seemingly a stab at doing what iRacing is doing. (Yes, I bought that hook, line and sinker)
3. More forgiving handling since I think iRacing is a bit too slidey compared to RL.
4. I am easing my son into racing and GT offers a good mix of challenges and missions.

GTS could have been perfect if it had positioned itself a bit closer to iRacing. But given the focus of the game and disregard for key aspects of motorsports I am a bit disappointed. It feels like a wasted opportunity. So close, but no cigar.

 

[PzR Slim]

Are you being naughty?
Project Cars 2 does not have a good reputation according to what I have read, so I have steered clear of it.

Then you really are missing out. There are bugs, quite a few of them but they are easy to ignore because PC2 gives the best representation of racing cars I have ever experienced in my over 35 years of gaming.

 

[Animera]

If GTS was really a 'Driving Simulator' and not a racing game, then we should all be driving around being pinged for exceeding speed limits.
Isn't racing just faster driving?

 

[TT92]

The game's been out, what, not yet 3 weeks?

Have they got it 100% right at launch? Probably not. Could they be expected to get it right 100% 1st time? Unlikely. Will they need to adjust some things to account for this? Of course.

Play it for what it is, enjoy the good parts, let it develop.

That is very good advice Stotty and precisely what I am doing. It is nothing more than a bash and crash arcade game to me and I treat it as such.

Assetto Corsa and even PCARS2 drives far better than this but where GTS shines is online (not so much in Sport) but the custom lobbies.

I should point out that everyone may as well start to get used to it because it is likely to be all we have from PD for another 3 years (at least) and by the time the next one is released we will have PS5s and be enjoying the next crop of real Sims ;-)

 

[p-coletray]

Is Forza better? I might just switch to Xbox. Sort of ready for a better game. I waited for this game for a long time, and it really sucks.

 

[eran0004]

Are you being naughty?
Project Cars 2 does not have a good reputation according to what I have read, so I have steered clear of it.

All games have a bad reputation. So either you give up on gaming entirely, or you try it yourself. In 90% of the cases it's not half as bad as people claim it to be.

Is Forza better? I might just switch to Xbox. Sort of ready for a better game. I waited for this game for a long time, and it really sucks.

It depends on what you mean by better. If you're looking for a traditional GT experience then arguably Forza is the best option right now. If you're looking for realistic racing then I'd say Project Cars.

 

[Foxis]

All games have a bad reputation. So either you give up on gaming entirely, or you try it yourself. In 90% of the cases it's not half as bad as people claim it to be.

I usually don't have the time to try all variants on the market, so for PC2 I watched a few reviews from people I have some respect for. Inside Sim Racing for example are usually quite on point and they were not very enthusiastic about PC2.
Granted I did not know that PC2 has a clean/dirty system for online racing, so if that is working somewhat well I actually think PC2 could offer a better online experience since I assume (dangerous, I know) that there are online championships that feature set cars over a season.

I have some research to do it seems.

Anyway, as concluding words from me in this thread I will just state that those who view this as a "moan thread" are actually far off the mark.
If you read my OP it is clear that my criticism is with the lack of direction and/or the failure to communicate a direction. I think the game itself is very well done and besides the issues we have discussed (which again are not technical issues, but management related) it is very enjoyable.

Which was the entire reason I started the thread: From my point of view GTS is becoming a wasted opportunity for those of us who had hoped it would allow for an even better simulation of a RL racing experience. But since that is not what they are going for, my point is basically moot.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll be around in some way. And I wish you success in your GT careers and a lot of enjoyment!

 

[GTFraker]

It was about time GT started moving towards online gaming in a serious proper way. The moment I heard they had partnered up with freaking FIA, that was what sold me. The loud minority are making a big deal out of everything PD does, the game is not perfect so what? If you expected not to be annoyed anything while playing this game, then I guess you have short memories because none of the previous GTs were anything close to impervious.

 

[JulesDennis]

What aim? Real Racing Simulator? The tagline never said that.

That's not the title, that's the tagline. And yes, it says Real Driving - not Real Racing.

It depends on what you mean by simulator. It does simulate some aspects of driving, but it doesn't simulate every aspect of driving. When it comes to racing it doesn't simulate much more than the vehicle dynamics. Above all else, it's a racing game.

In the tagline, yes. There is racing in the game. But you can have racing without having realistic racing, as is evident from all the previous Gran Turismo games.

Racing and realism are not the same word, although at first glance you may be fooled by them starting on the same letter.

No. They claim to simulate real driving, and whether or not they do a good job is always up for debate. They don't claim to simulate real racing.

1+1=2, but what you're trying to do is more like apple+pear=orange.

PD sells this game as a Simulator.This is my point.
I never said that GTS is actually a sim or that it does a good job.I am not sharing my opinion about the game being a sim or not,I am just pointing out what PD says about their product and how they describe it.
Tagline or not that is what they say:its a simulator.
If you go to a store and buy a bottle with a tag that says DENNIS:The Real German Beer and in the end you take something that taste more like tea and its not beer,that does not erase the fact that this bottle is supposed to be beer and not tea and that its advertised as such.
So my personal opinion -or your opinion- about GTS (if it is a sim or a simcar or an arcade game) is irrelevant.There are many people in this forum that would argue that GT (and GTS) is the best sim ever created.
The fact remains that PD is selling a product that they they its a SIMULATOR.They also said that in partership with FIA are gonna be the frontiers in e-sport racing.They also claim that they simulate real driving.
So they sell a product that is a SIMULATOR and it is gonna chance the "history" of e-sport racing.
This is not a question if GT titles are sim titles or not.If you want,we can talk in another topic about how good sim or simcade GTS is.
Pcars 2 says its a racing motorsports simulator.
Automobilista tag is :motorsports simulator.
Assetto Corsa:Your Racing Simulator.
rFactor2:Racing simulator
Following your argument and your logic these titles do not simulate RL driving (or motorsport driving) because there is no "driving" in their tagline......

 

[RotorHed]

The point is that it is not a stated goal of Gran Turismo Sport to emulate real life racing. I'm not surprised that it's lost on you though.

There is no such statement on gran-turismo.com. If you know of an interview where there is, please direct me to it.

Why the aggressive tone? You’re “not surprised it’s lost on me?” - you asked for a quote expressing that the focus of GTS was online racing which I provided. Now you’re saying the quote doesn’t use your exact wording - but i fail to see why PD should use your words to describe their game.

So again I can’t understand what point you wish to make. Perhaps you can just sum up what it is you wish to say?

 

[Deadheadbill]

Granted I did not know that PC2 has a clean/dirty system for online racing, so if that is working somewhat well I actually think PC2 could offer a better online experience since I assume (dangerous, I know) that there are online championships that feature set cars over a season.

!

Just fyi, Pcars 2 has some great qualities, it also has a lot of known bugs that the developer may or may not fix at their discretion. But as far as online racing, that is by far it's worse aspect. GT Sport is miles above it in that respect. This is all my opinion, but it is backed up by many many others. Check steam reviews in regard to this before you drop your 6o bucks on it would be my advice.

 

[eran0004]

PD sells this game as a Simulator.This is my point.
I never said that GTS is actually a sim or that it does a good job.I am not sharing my opinion about the game being a sim or not,I am just pointing out what PD says about their product and how they describe it.
Tagline or not that is what they say:its a simulator.
If you go to a store and buy a bottle with a tag that says DENNIS:The Real German Beer and in the end you take something that taste more like tea and its not beer,that does not erase the fact that this bottle is supposed to be beer and not tea and that its advertised as such.
So my personal opinion -or your opinion- about GTS (if it is a sim or a simcar or an arcade game) is irrelevant.There are many people in this forum that would argue that GT (and GTS) is the best sim ever created.
The fact remains that PD is selling a product that they they its a SIMULATOR.They also said that in partership with FIA are gonna be the frontiers in e-sport racing.They also claim that they simulate real driving.
So they sell a product that is a SIMULATOR and it is gonna chance the "history" of e-sport racing.
This is not a question if GT titles are sim titles or not.If you want,we can talk in another topic about how good sim or simcade GTS is.
Pcars 2 says its a racing motorsports simulator.
Automobilista tag is :motorsports simulator.
Assetto Corsa:Your Racing Simulator.
rFactor2:Racing simulator
Following your argument and your logic these titles do not simulate RL driving (or motorsport driving) because there is no "driving" in their tagline......

When did I say that the tag line needs to contain every aspect of a game?

You said that because the tag line says "The Real Driving Simulator", the goal must be to emulate real life racing. But that's not what the tag line says, it's says driving simulator - which it is. It's a game that simulate the driving dynamics of a car.

Online racing just mean that you race these cars online. It doesn't imply that these races will be cast in the mold of real life races.

E-Sports is a form of organised online competition. It doesn't say anything about the realism of the game. StarCraft is an example of a popular e-sport and on the realism scale it doesn't score very high at all.

Why the aggressive tone? You’re “not surprised it’s lost on me?” - you asked for a quote expressing that the focus of GTS was online racing which I provided. Now you’re saying the quote doesn’t use your exact wording - but i fail to see why PD should use your words to describe their game.

So again I can’t understand what point you wish to make. Perhaps you can just sum up what it is you wish to say?

I didn't ask for a quote about online racing. I asked for a quote about realistic racing.

Online and realism are not nearly the same thing, so you can't claim that you provided what I asked for using the excuse that "they're not going to use your exact words".

 

[JacksHerer]

Anytime that tuning is allowed, so to should damage and tire/fuel consumption be switched on, also the player ability to change their fuel level for the race.
It would sort those crazy fuel burning, tire scrubbing, gear box damaging, engine damaging tunes that people can get away with running.

Other than PSVR gameplay improvements, and ability to run fixed tune lobbies, I'm happy for PD to decide the rest from the data they are gathering.

Edit to Add - I'm curious how peoples DR SR rating is affecting their enjoyment of the game. I'm DR:B/SR:S and I'm loving it.

 

[JulesDennis]

When did I say that the tag line needs to contain every aspect of a game?

You said that because the tag line says "The Real Driving Simulator", the goal must be to emulate real life racing. But that's not what the tag line says, it's says driving simulator - which it is. It's a game that simulate the driving dynamics of a car.

In other words it simulates real life driving (or some aspects of that-depending how succesfull it is in doing that:simulating).

Online racing just mean that you race these cars online. It doesn't imply that these races will be cast in the mold of real life races.

Since this "online racing" is part of the same "driving simulation" it should simulate real life races too.
It actually have Q sessions,races in tracks/race cars,penalties,Cups so it does simulate "real life races".

E-Sports is a form of organised online competition. It doesn't say anything about the realism of the game. StarCraft is an example of a popular e-sport and on the realism scale it doesn't score very high at all

E-sports says nothing about realism you are correct.On the other hand "simulation" is about realism.
It "simulate" real life -as best as possible- or try to do that.

"Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time.The act of simulating something first requires that a model be developed; this model represents the key characteristics, behaviors and fuctions of the selected physical or abstract system or process. The model represents the system itself, whereas the simulation represents the operation of the system over time."

 

[GTWelsh]

Wow, this is all very petty.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

1. More players and a more diverse offering of cars
2. FIA endorsement and seemingly a stab at doing what iRacing is doing. (Yes, I bought that hook, line and sinker)
3. More forgiving handling since I think iRacing is a bit too slidey compared to RL.
4. I am easing my son into racing and GT offers a good mix of challenges and missions.

GTS could have been perfect if it had positioned itself a bit closer to iRacing. But given the focus of the game and disregard for key aspects of motorsports I am a bit disappointed. It feels like a wasted opportunity. So close, but no cigar.

My buddy is into iRacing and he had a similar sentiment, in regards to the SR system.

It's interesting though that you said that iRacing felt too "slidey". From reviews I've read most of the racing sims suffer from really slippery cars with high torque. I kind of just assumed that Gran Turismo was just more unrealistic in how "grippy" the cars were. Which sim do you think gets the traction closest to real life?

 

[Foxis]

My buddy is into iRacing and he had a similar sentiment, in regards to the SR system.

It's interesting though that you said that iRacing felt too "slidey". From reviews I've read most of the racing sims suffer from really slippery cars with high torque. I kind of just assumed that Gran Turismo was just more unrealistic in how "grippy" the cars were. Which sim do you think gets the traction closest to real life?

My personal opinion is that there is no sim/game that has nailed the RL feeling. They either feel a bit strange below the limit, or at/over the limit. So it's a case of pick your poison.

FWIW, I felt that iRacing was too slidey below the threshold and too eager to spin you out. However, when over the threshold it felt pretty good. Recovery was not unrealistic, and real methods works well. I felt this applied to most vehicles, some more than others. For example, the Skippy was extreme. And while I know it is a bit unruly in RL, the grip just did not feel predictable/readable to me.

In most cases I think the grippier feel of GT is actually closer to my RL reference, although when you get to the limit GT is too simplistic and recoveries are in general too easy.

Two things though: My opinion can certainly have been coloured by FFB settings, and I am not a professional. I just like cars and have the possibility of driving fast ones on track now and then.

Wow, this is all very petty.

Not really. Not demanding or complaining. Read the OP again.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Anytime that tuning is allowed, so to should damage and tire/fuel consumption be switched on, also the player ability to change their fuel level for the race.
It would sort those crazy fuel burning, tire scrubbing, gear box damaging, engine damaging tunes that people can get away with running.

Other than PSVR gameplay improvements, and ability to run fixed tune lobbies, I'm happy for PD to decide the rest from the data they are gathering.

Edit to Add - I'm curious how peoples DR SR rating is affecting their enjoyment of the game. I'm DR:B/SR:S and I'm loving it.

GTS doesn't have engine or gearbox damage maybe because GTS isn't a racing sim according so some ^^^. Would be great if it did though, would add another element of risk and reward tradeoff.

My buddy is into iRacing and he had a similar sentiment, in regards to the SR system.

It's interesting though that you said that iRacing felt too "slidey". From reviews I've read most of the racing sims suffer from really slippery cars with high torque. I kind of just assumed that Gran Turismo was just more unrealistic in how "grippy" the cars were. Which sim do you think gets the traction closest to real life?

This isn't a versus thread. I'd suggest not going down the "let's compare games" route her, it's frowned upon by the mods.

Wow, this is all very petty.

Did you report it?

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

This isn't a versus thread. I'd suggest not going down the "let's compare games" route her, it's frowned upon by the mods.

I understand the caution, but the question was more nuanced than that and I reserve the right to ask it. I was simply interested in his specific feedback on the traction and how it relates to real life.

 

[GTWelsh]

Did you report it?

You can report posts for merely being petty? It's subjective and probably miss-use of the feature. I'd be reporting almost everything in here these days.

Not really. Not demanding or complaining. Read the OP again.

No problem with the OP my friend It was the posts in here, about things like "is it still a sim if it has fantasy cars". People get all hung up on the term "sim", just play the game and have fun .