- 7,765
- Yorkshire
- ScapeGoat4U
- WhippingBoy
Yeah, I made a new thread for it here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-updated-physics-thread-1-32.384822/
đź‘Ť
Potato...
- Thread starter VBR
- 560 comments
- 59,929 views
Yeah, I made a new thread for it here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-updated-physics-thread-1-32.384822/
đź‘Ť
- 1,478
- Florida
- kacivola
Hell yes brother it's perfect now and that cloud of smoke is gone under heavy braking.
- 420
- United States
- wheelmansteve
One night's worth: WOW. I don't want to go overboard, but:
I did the American Muscle event in the '16 Camaro SS, and flat cleaned up. Car was brilliant, as it should be. Yes, it's big and heavy, but it's not the wallowing sow it was coded as. Big improvement. The Mini Challenge had been an "ignore" for me, but I ran the first two events with an '05, and had so much fun I picked up a '65 for the last event. I'd been running through the Lambo Challenge events with a stock Huracan, and while I had been winning, the car wasn't much fun to drive, even on SS's. After 1.32, it was a little sharper and more balanced- I could push a lot harder, and put power down sooner.
For whatever it's worth, I'm using a G29, and the overall improvement SEEMS to go beyond the tire model. I felt like my control inputs were being picked up correctly, as if they've cured the seeming latency issue I (and others) think the G29 was suffering from. The car responded in CAR-like fashion to my inputs, and IMMEDIATELY, so I spent much less time correcting. So far, very happy.
I did the American Muscle event in the '16 Camaro SS, and flat cleaned up. Car was brilliant, as it should be. Yes, it's big and heavy, but it's not the wallowing sow it was coded as. Big improvement. The Mini Challenge had been an "ignore" for me, but I ran the first two events with an '05, and had so much fun I picked up a '65 for the last event. I'd been running through the Lambo Challenge events with a stock Huracan, and while I had been winning, the car wasn't much fun to drive, even on SS's. After 1.32, it was a little sharper and more balanced- I could push a lot harder, and put power down sooner.
For whatever it's worth, I'm using a G29, and the overall improvement SEEMS to go beyond the tire model. I felt like my control inputs were being picked up correctly, as if they've cured the seeming latency issue I (and others) think the G29 was suffering from. The car responded in CAR-like fashion to my inputs, and IMMEDIATELY, so I spent much less time correcting. So far, very happy.
- 3,384
- Las Vegas
- dawko-san
I know he’s talking about iRacing but it very well describes the GT SPORT’s problem, which is, frankly, even more critical.
- 571
- Italy
On GTS,cars are way more controllable when they slide compared to Iracing in my opinion.
Anyway this should be shown to the pc sim racing elitists
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- 251
- Azerach
I don't think the problem in GTS is related to tyres as much as it is in iRacing.
In iRacing the slightest spin of the tyres cooks them resulting in ice skate physics and unrecoverable slides.
For GTS the problem, in my opinion, is in the traction control.. or lack of since no one uses it. GTS TC bogs down the car for far too long, it's more of a life saving feature than a feature to allow the driver to straddle on the limit.
Driving the lower N class cars feels really good, in my opinion, on the limit. Problem is when you get in the high power cars.
Edit: I've been following the iRacing discussion in recent weeks with interest. Racing games have a hard time fending off the old school sim racing cultists who think hard=realistic. This attitude is probably a big reason why many think the current iRacing tyre model is best in all sim racing. One example of this toxic attitude is the comment section to this Kaz interview from 2017:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ving-simulators-shouldnt-be-difficult.357091/
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- 3,384
- Las Vegas
- dawko-san
- 251
- Azerach
Oh yeah. I remember that. Good shout.
Out of curiosity I went and did the tests on the current patch. Improvements across the board, about a second each. Still not matching real life though.
- 3,384
- Las Vegas
- dawko-san
- 251
- Azerach
Yeah, default tyres.
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
In racecars I regularly post decent times with default tcs. I beat people all the time not running it.
I’m not a road car person, really.
The thing about tcs is understanding the mistakes you are making with your inputs causing it to cut power and prevent you from crashing.
For example I have gold LH times at I think Brands, Interlagos, Suzuka, all set with tcs 3 bb0.
Tcs is the most misunderstood thing in this game. It’s a great tool to use if you don’t spend 40 hours a week practicing.
I personally think that right now the games physics are a huge strength, the thing that needs help is the sr system. But, even then once you get into good rooms you can get some excellent racing.
- 16,270
- Melbourne
- ScottPuss20
- CheetahsMeow
This was an issue with the original Project Cars. If your car got into a slide, it was impossible to recover and you went into the wall. Thankfully this was rectified for Project Cars 2, however it's still harder to manage than in Gran Turismo. By my understanding, the grip reduction cannot be instantaneous when you put the car into a slide. Tyres don't work that way.
- 181
I agree with Kaz. I've tracked My Evo X in real life at Streets of Willow, stock suspension and all and I used similar setting in the game and the resulting car control basically matched what I experienced in real life. Now I take Assetto Corsa GTR Nismo around Laguna Seca. It ridiculously difficult to control and the car doesn't rotate around corners. It feels nowhere close to being natural. It's crazy how elitists that never saw a day on the track defend so hard that it is the most realistic sim.
- 181
If its the same youtube video I remember between PC2, AC and GTS, the cars in were being launched at redline. You are not going to get the same times in real life with that. Your tires are going to spin launching at high RPM. GT Sport simulates launch tire spin well. I've done some comparisons with proper rpm launches and they match real life.
- 1,336
- New York
Honestly I think the current tire model replicates the feeling of driving at the limit quite well. It feels very realistic to how cars behave in real life at and beyond their limit.
Where I think it’s still lacking though is:
1) Grip and degradation deltas between compounds. Hard tires are like driving with blocks of ice for wheels, and medium tires are just soft tires that wear nearly as fast and provide less grip.
2) Grip behavior when touching non-road surfaces. GTS appears to calculate grip similar to iRacing where it doesn’t take into account the entire surface of the tire. Instead it will apply a blanket grip level to the whole tire based on available data. What this means in practice is that once a tire has encountered a pixel of grass, sand, or other slick surface the entire tire will lose all of it’s grip.
Solving these two problems is likely not trivial, but would go a long way in helping to improve the realism of GTS. Hopefully the Michelin partnership will help this over the years.
Where I think it’s still lacking though is:
1) Grip and degradation deltas between compounds. Hard tires are like driving with blocks of ice for wheels, and medium tires are just soft tires that wear nearly as fast and provide less grip.
2) Grip behavior when touching non-road surfaces. GTS appears to calculate grip similar to iRacing where it doesn’t take into account the entire surface of the tire. Instead it will apply a blanket grip level to the whole tire based on available data. What this means in practice is that once a tire has encountered a pixel of grass, sand, or other slick surface the entire tire will lose all of it’s grip.
Solving these two problems is likely not trivial, but would go a long way in helping to improve the realism of GTS. Hopefully the Michelin partnership will help this over the years.
- 435
- Iceland
I don't have the game, but only judging from youtube videos, you are right I say. The tire model seems to work as it should for those less powerful N class cars as you say, but also up to N500 in my opinion. I hope PD continue it's way improving the tire model, which is getting better and better right now.
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- 435
- Iceland
Right you are sir, you have to feel it for the best judge. I had the game, and it was pleasant to drive my 400hp MK3/4 Supra on sports tires, and even comfort soft (for the drift) after the 1.23 tire model update. For now I only have videos from others to judge, and I can clearly see it's just getting better.
Edit
Yeah, I miss my Supras.
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LeGeNd-1
Premium
- 7,264
- Australia
- GTP_LeGeNd-1
What some people need to remember is iRacing's physics engine is based on a NASCAR game from 2003. No matter how much tweaking you do, it will hit a ceiling at some point. When I read ACC devs talk about the things they simulate for example, I'm just blown away at how much detail there is. I doubt iRacing even comes close, no matter what the devs say.
With GT, although the physics engine has been improved over the years, at the end of the day it's still programmed by the same guy since GT1 (Akihiko Tan). Just watch the credits of every game from GT1-GTS if you don't believe me. And GT being a mass market sim, obviously Kaz doesn't want it to get too realistic, otherwise it will become too difficult and complicated for the average gamer. Also, the development time and budget for them is better utilised for attention grabbing stuff like shiny cars, tracks, graphics and esports. The payoff for simulating super real physics will be lost on most casual fans.
I remember when I drove Niels' NSX in rFactor with RealFeel mod for the first time in 2014, I was blown away at how "right" it feels. Driving the NSX in GT5/6 feels okay, but after that point there's no comparison. Then in 2016 when I tried Assetto Corsa for the first time I was even more blown away. Just driving on a straight line, the road feel and FFB is immense. It's like comparing a video at 480p and 1080p. I was lucky enough to drive a race prepped Holden on slicks last year around a track, and if I isolate the feeling of driving alone (removing things that can't be felt at home like g-forces and vertical bumps), AC/ACC is the closest sim in feeling In ACC especially you can really hustle the car around a track and not fear crashing if your steering angle is off by 1 degrees, which is what I feel with classically difficult sims like rFactor (and to an extent GT).
IMO, I don't expect GT to get to the levels of AC. But there are a few simple tweaks Akihiko-san can do to make it a lot better. Improve the longitudinal grip of the tyres, add tyre pressure and tyre flex (currently they just feel like solid blocks). Improve aero modelling especially underbody downforce. Also the default setups need to be adjusted. No more +0.60 toe and ridiculously high LSD Accel values. The road cars always feel better than race cars in GTS because they are less sensitive to wrong setups. Whereas the Gr.3 cars are totally terrible to drive compared to their counterparts in ACC because of how sensitive they are to setup and underbody rake/aero. No matter what a modern race car will not just spin out at 40 km/h when you turn the wheel, but you see this all the time in the Gr.3 MRs (Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, etc).
With GT, although the physics engine has been improved over the years, at the end of the day it's still programmed by the same guy since GT1 (Akihiko Tan). Just watch the credits of every game from GT1-GTS if you don't believe me. And GT being a mass market sim, obviously Kaz doesn't want it to get too realistic, otherwise it will become too difficult and complicated for the average gamer. Also, the development time and budget for them is better utilised for attention grabbing stuff like shiny cars, tracks, graphics and esports. The payoff for simulating super real physics will be lost on most casual fans.
I remember when I drove Niels' NSX in rFactor with RealFeel mod for the first time in 2014, I was blown away at how "right" it feels. Driving the NSX in GT5/6 feels okay, but after that point there's no comparison. Then in 2016 when I tried Assetto Corsa for the first time I was even more blown away. Just driving on a straight line, the road feel and FFB is immense. It's like comparing a video at 480p and 1080p. I was lucky enough to drive a race prepped Holden on slicks last year around a track, and if I isolate the feeling of driving alone (removing things that can't be felt at home like g-forces and vertical bumps), AC/ACC is the closest sim in feeling In ACC especially you can really hustle the car around a track and not fear crashing if your steering angle is off by 1 degrees, which is what I feel with classically difficult sims like rFactor (and to an extent GT).
IMO, I don't expect GT to get to the levels of AC. But there are a few simple tweaks Akihiko-san can do to make it a lot better. Improve the longitudinal grip of the tyres, add tyre pressure and tyre flex (currently they just feel like solid blocks). Improve aero modelling especially underbody downforce. Also the default setups need to be adjusted. No more +0.60 toe and ridiculously high LSD Accel values. The road cars always feel better than race cars in GTS because they are less sensitive to wrong setups. Whereas the Gr.3 cars are totally terrible to drive compared to their counterparts in ACC because of how sensitive they are to setup and underbody rake/aero. No matter what a modern race car will not just spin out at 40 km/h when you turn the wheel, but you see this all the time in the Gr.3 MRs (Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, etc).
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Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
Hmm on my setup running c race or either of the FIA today the tires felt great today.
Personally I don’t care at all about the camber or toe or what any of those numbers say.
As long as the cars drive like they do far as I’m concerned you could just eliminate all those numbers from the screen entirely. It could say 45 degrees camber who cares ? 300 psi front? Who cares? Not me! Not as long as the cars drive well like they do.
I will try ACC tho, I’ve seen some respected folks say good things about the gt cars, and AC had some cars I liked before deleting it. Liked Mugello...
Personally I don’t care at all about the camber or toe or what any of those numbers say.
As long as the cars drive like they do far as I’m concerned you could just eliminate all those numbers from the screen entirely. It could say 45 degrees camber who cares ? 300 psi front? Who cares? Not me! Not as long as the cars drive well like they do.
I will try ACC tho, I’ve seen some respected folks say good things about the gt cars, and AC had some cars I liked before deleting it. Liked Mugello...
- 2,239
- MI
Yikes, if you don't care what those "numbers" say or what they do, buckle up for ACC then. lol
The cars do drive nice right from the start but the numbers, ohhhh the numbers.
Hi all !
Anyone knows if the effect that happens along several turns in YAMAGIWA, rebound noise and vibrations, it's chatter ?
It usually happens on other tracks corners too with height dips... when suspension is compressed and not forcing the steering, you can hear like a chassis twisting... it's not the understeer effect.
For example, it also occurs in a very noticeable way in Lago Maggiore along the right hander high cambered turn.
Chatter : "In this instance because the tyres are so incredibly grippy and they’re under considerable load, the tyre starts to slide, but then milliseconds later it regains grip before heading into a tiny slide again."
Anyone knows if the effect that happens along several turns in YAMAGIWA, rebound noise and vibrations, it's chatter ?
It usually happens on other tracks corners too with height dips... when suspension is compressed and not forcing the steering, you can hear like a chassis twisting... it's not the understeer effect.
For example, it also occurs in a very noticeable way in Lago Maggiore along the right hander high cambered turn.
Chatter : "In this instance because the tyres are so incredibly grippy and they’re under considerable load, the tyre starts to slide, but then milliseconds later it regains grip before heading into a tiny slide again."
- 3,384
- Las Vegas
- dawko-san
- 181
I think AC production car representations is poor. The feedback adds in a lot of faux sensory details that are not representative of what you actually feel in real life. I have an FRS in real life and I tried it in the game. When launching in AC, the wheels vibrates violently. I know you can turn that down, but I can see why it may be convincing. GTS may feel dull at times, but the feedback is representative of what you would actually feel in a car. I posted my feeling on a previous post regarding the FRS in AC and my FRS irl. There is way too much understeer and once you lose any type of grip, it's over. Launching the car in AC and any type wheel movement throws the car into weird balance situation. It doesn't feel natural at all. Also, I don't think gravity is even simulated. I can sit in neutral at Laguna Seca corkscrew and the car wont move. And those infamous sausages and how they completely disrupt your car. I've watched a bit of MotorTrend hot laps at Laguna Seca and running over the sausages don't really affect the car's balance that much. I also compared the GTR in the game to my Evo X. The GTR Nismo has way too much understeer and feels like a fwd car. I track my Evo in real life and as I mentioned before, GTS has better production car physics than AC. I haven't had a chance to Play ACC as yet. I downloaded it, but my PC cant run it properly.
- 2,239
- MI
Let me get this straight. AC feedback is poor but GTS is good and lifelike? What is this, the twilight zone? I would keep to saying that in this forum then because the consensus round and round a LOT of other places is not the same. AC holds ranks amongst the top contenders in it's peer group, rF2, RR, AMS (2), ect. It wins polls time and time again for the most used and most liked sim on race department every time they hold one.
Yes, you can turn whatever you need down, up or sideways in settings to make your FFB good for you and the wheel you use. Something that can;t be said for GTS.
Launching a car? I don't know, are the tyres warm? Does it have TC? AC feels fine. You can;t just sit there and floor it and expect good results. Each car has a limit to find on where it likes to be launched. Let's talk about GTS though, everybody playing with TC off because that's supposedly "faster". Even on cars that should have it in real life. Where's GTS's "factory" setting? Why does it have to be off or on? They couldn't match the actual cars level of TC and have it on or off for each as in real life? Weird
Gravity? And pulling wheelies in a Ferrari 330P4 is lifelike. Getting into the grass in a Gr.1 car and just doing circles is real because the car can never just go straight and they couldn't implement the linear throttle that they had in beta? That's a whole other conversation by the way.
I have no problems hitting sausage kerbs at Leguna IF you hit them right. Car can't be off balance, off throttle and not wretching the wheel in any direction. You can go right over them fine. Just did some indy cars there and no issue, same with the Corvette C8R that's very stiff and low to the ground. The car not moving is known and is more or less a proponent of how coast torque works in the game. However that has no correlation with the games gravity coefficient. There's a wide consensus that would agree with thinking GTS's gravity is too light but without looking at how the base system works, it's speculation.
You mention all this understeer but I don;t know if you tried to rectify it through settings? Some cars come with more understeer as they obviously do in GTS as well, (looking at the Ford '17 GT). ARB and diff in AC can take care of this. Difference between the two is that AC gives you realistic options whereas GTS has a minimal amount of settings that only give you minimal range within that setting. Some of them having next to no affect on the car.
Look out if you give ACC a try, I couldn't imagine thinking the same way about GTS after being on a proper wheel rig with triple screens.
Did you watch the GTS live stream today? They look like cartoons going around and the weight transfer is weird. I don't even want to get into this no damage at all thing either. GTS can't have body parts, wheels coming off or flats?
I don't know about camping out in GTS world. I haven't turned it on for months. Whatever that last update was I figured I'd give it a go and yep, the cars just all feel the same and it's boring. With all the real options out there and that I have, I can't justify spending any time on what feels like a child's toy compare to rF2, AC, ACC. PC2 has Gran Turismo beat even with FFB and triple screens.
Let me know when Gran Turismo does this:
Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
- 181
You mention ACC, but I'm talking about AC and your comment regarding it having the best production car models. I shouldn't have to change the car setting to make the car feel better. I get that same response from people on reddit. From my real world experience and experience with the game, that's far from truth. Most sim elitists that brag that they play the best sim never set foot on a track in real life, not even auto x. I've had 6 years in my FRS and I can say AC handles the car awkwardly. I brake before a turn to shift the weight to the front tires and go for a turn in at 45 mph and give a little punch on the throttle and the car is still sending me in an understeer situation. Even when I let off throttle, the car is suppose to weight shift and rotate. When the car starts to slide, especially with the FRS, there is suppose to be a liner loss of grip right past the tire grip limit and it's fairly easy to recover. AC, the car hits limit and rotates itself like it has the inertia from a MR. The car feels like a FWD then an MR in all the wrong situations.
However, between GT Sport and AC, I was setting the same lap times.
I'm not going to get started on the GTR Nismo in AC. There is no reason my Evo on 245/40R18 Michelin PSS tires rotate around corners better than it in the game. It suffers from the same fate as the FRS. AC is weird in that, there is only one way to drive the car correctly and you can't explore your own style.
I have experience with two different drivetrain platforms and AC gets it all wrong. GTS, for production cars at least, has the more realistic model. I wont comment on race cars since I've never driven one.
Edit: So I jumped back on AC and I tried the FRS with the Street tires instead of the eco and it handles much better with the street. But the Ecos were a bit out of control. I still have major issues with the GTR Nismo's handling and understeer. It doesn't turn in at all.
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- 2,239
- MI
I'm 44. I spent all of my 20's on a track. I still go a fool around here and there. I've raced cars, track day'd cars, broke/wrecked cars and then worked on those cars. Of course there's a lot of snot nosed kids in here but not everybody.
Get's it wrong? It's a game first and foremost. None of them get it right. You're trying to feel a car through a steering wheel. While I can agree that certain aspects like top speed, acceleration, lap times, car behaviors can try to be recreated the best they can, you have to look at what draws you into the experience in the game. I spend most of my time when behind a simulated wheel in AC, then rF2 or ACC or PC2 depending on what I want to do. Why? The feeling is always there. I have ~2700 cars and ~600 tracks in AC. More content than I can ever learn properly. Everything from a 1923 Voisin C6 to 1990's BTCC to Pickup Trucks to all the latest Hypercars and just about every racing class that exists. Umpteen full grid F1 years, 67, 71, 75, 82, 86, 91, 92, 94, blah blah. And even Gran Turismo Vision Cars in AC and all of them drive better than anything in GTS.
If you like GTS then good. That's fine. Do whatever you're having fun with. That's what it's all about. But it in my opinion GTS is a lack luster, watered down driving experiences out of the options available. I find it boring. This is coming from someone who learned about Japanese cars in 1997 when the first Gran Turismo came out. Love everything the series has done (until now) and I've worn out playstations on their games alone.
Get's it wrong? It's a game first and foremost. None of them get it right. You're trying to feel a car through a steering wheel. While I can agree that certain aspects like top speed, acceleration, lap times, car behaviors can try to be recreated the best they can, you have to look at what draws you into the experience in the game. I spend most of my time when behind a simulated wheel in AC, then rF2 or ACC or PC2 depending on what I want to do. Why? The feeling is always there. I have ~2700 cars and ~600 tracks in AC. More content than I can ever learn properly. Everything from a 1923 Voisin C6 to 1990's BTCC to Pickup Trucks to all the latest Hypercars and just about every racing class that exists. Umpteen full grid F1 years, 67, 71, 75, 82, 86, 91, 92, 94, blah blah. And even Gran Turismo Vision Cars in AC and all of them drive better than anything in GTS.
If you like GTS then good. That's fine. Do whatever you're having fun with. That's what it's all about. But it in my opinion GTS is a lack luster, watered down driving experiences out of the options available. I find it boring. This is coming from someone who learned about Japanese cars in 1997 when the first Gran Turismo came out. Love everything the series has done (until now) and I've worn out playstations on their games alone.
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Groundfish
(Banned)
- 4,363
- United States
For me, like in anything you do, it’s a question of trade offs.
What draws me into GTS is racing others, on equal footing. I can hop on whenever I want, and find racing with qual times faster and slower. No car setup needed literally turn on push button and race, no pc headaches nothin.
Maybe you trade off a bit of immersion compared to triples on an expensive pc with a dd wheel and top of the line pedals.
But the investment required vs enjoyment you get...Unbeatable.
It’s one thing if money’s no object, but it’s not, and for the amount of spending certain people do on this stuff there’s other things I’d personally choose to do with that moolah.
There’s only a certain amount I am willing to spend to play racing video games.
Racing ai or hotlapping to me is a complete bore. It’s even annoying in sport mode imo to have to spend the time getting an appropriate qual.
For single player dr2 is fantastic if I’m not in the mood for wheel to wheel racing.
People say many things about GTS, but often the ones who decry it’s obvious strengths clearly don’t use it much. For example people saying it’s tcs is poor.
I put up times almost every week using tcs3 in the top 1-2 percent. So that’s not true, it’s a matter of understanding.
I personally choose GTS/PS4 now because of cost benefit.
The tire model vs RF or other pc stuff doesn’t concern me.
It’s actually pretty dang good imo. I really really enjoy online racing and the active community in GTS. The skill ceiling is very high, further, remember that you are not talking to people that don’t have real world experience and know how things work. GTS is great because it’s driver vs driver not driver vs driver plus knowledge of in game setup exploits rendering the play unequal.
Jmo but I’ve no interest in a ton of hardware cost either, so the trade off is an absolute no brainer to me.
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