Pre-release GT5:Prologue Thread Firmware 2.17 mandatory for GT5:P? (and Pictures)

[RACECAR]

I'm Impressed with all the PD apology staff that strives to keep these topics straight........

lol, Apology staff? It sounds like you accusing some users here of kissing up to PD.

A Real Life Chevelle 454 sounds NOTHING like the **** sounds that GT4 MADE it sound like.

You just now figured this out? I'm pretty sure most of us(assuming we're car nuts) knew well before now so what else is new?

Heck i got some ford mustang neighbors, that have modified their Stangs, and damn do they sound GOOD.
There are plently of example's of the real world difference compared to what PD FAILED to get right.

Again, we knew this.


Let me ask some you who seem more eager to point out what to complain about and demand then be happy for whats in store: Have any of you developed a game before? have you actually gotten real world sounds for the cars and tryed to implyment them? Have you tryed to add damage models? Seriously, I think some of you guys are asking to be dissapointed the way your demanding things. I for one am happy for the fact that I have so many cars, tracks, and features I got in GT4 and I'm currently surprised and happy that there will be 16 cars now, Daytona will be included and it will have online, plus now I will get to watch the races I never see on GT TV(anyone who's annoyed with speed's obsessive Nascar shows and and that crap show "unique whips" know what I'm talking about). We all know PD has some work to do and they are aware of this so stop this childish complaining please.

 

[Jedi2016]

You obviously have a lot more factual data than I then. So would you please list for us practically every other developer out there that has come up with a better way of doing car audio than PD and the proof that shows their method is indeed superior and who's results are more realistic.

Need for Speed, PGR, Test Drive, DiRT, TOCA. They all have better engine sound than GT. At full revs, they actually SOUND like cars at full revs instead of sounding like a dustbuster. NFS and TOCA especially.

I can only hope that it was hardware limitations that did it in for the sound in GT4 on PS2. Maybe they ran out of disc space or memory for all the sound samples they needed. Maybe the system just couldn't push that number of sounds at one time. These are limitations that the PS3 doesn't have.

We keep hearing rumors of a new, better sound engine for GT5P, but I find it odd that no one's been able to get their hands on direct-feed video/audio of actual gameplay. So none of us have actually heard it yet. All of the videos released so far use pre-recorded sounds, not in-game. Not the first time PD has done it, but still.. If they want us to stop worrying about the sound, they need to SHOW us that it's been improved.

 

[KSaiyu]

Yeah be he is being disrespectful to the developers because he is speaking like they are being lazy and that they don't want to do it. They may not have the budget to do it, or the time.

And I don't get what you mean about online in prologue? I might have missed some news ?

I dunno, I didn't pick up that vibe from his post.

Unfortunately, Prologue will initially have some limitations to its online mode. On launch day, the game will support Arcade Free Battle mode only, where your opponents are chosen at random. Chat and friend list functionality will be added to the game via download at a later date. Yamauchi was unwilling to give a specific date.

 

[Dave A]

The problem with sounds in GT games is that they seem very flat. In a real car you have a lot of noises coming from your engine all at once, most of that is missing from GT's engine noises. Also, as the rev's climdb, you don't just get a rise in pitch, you get a change in tone as well. Your car's engine tone can be very different depending on where in the rev range you are, GT4 just seems to raise a variable in order to manipulate a single sound. Admittedly, they probably don't have too much choice, considering the huge number of additional sounds they would need stored otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that in evey GT game to date, the engine sounds have been lacking. Hopefully, PS3's blue ray and the hard drive will allow the engine noises to be more dynamic.

 

[buickgnx88]

The problem with putting visual damage in GT5 is it would be really hard to make it look realistic. On older games it was easier because the cars weren't as realistic, but on GT5 where the cars will look life-like, it would be much more of a challenge to do.

 

[RACECAR]

The problem with putting visual damage in GT5 is it would be really hard to make it look realistic. On older games it was easier because the cars weren't as realistic, but on GT5 where the cars will look life-like, it would be much more of a challenge to do.

Very true, along with the fact that Manufacterers aren't really enthusiastic to have their cars damaged in the game.

 

[buickgnx88]

Of course even with the manufacturers approval, it would be difficult because you would have to have every part of the body panels be able to be damaged and it would have to be programmed a certain way so it looks realistic. I vote for just mechanical damage because that's alot easier to deal with IMO.

 

[Biggles]

GT4 is a huge game in terms of the sheer quantity of content. The majority of cars I don't drive, nor do I have much interest in driving them. No doubt modelling all those cars takes a lot of time. I would be perfectly happy if GT5 had a lot less cars & came out sooner with additional cars provided as DLC for those who want them.

The important things for me are improved driving physics & AI & some kind of collision physics if not actual damage (the first rate graphics are already in evidence). I'm just hoping that GT5 does not substitute quantity for quality (which is kind of what GT4 did). I think it's a mistake to feel you're "getting your money's worth" when PD just piles on more & more content.

I feel that a reasonable role for DLC is to add quantity to the existing quality. In a way, I see GT5P as pointing the direction: hopefully it will provide the core experience to which additional content can be added to when GT5 arrives.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Very true, along with the fact that Manufacterers aren't really enthusiastic to have their cars damaged in the game.

I recall reading in an interview with Kaz in an Australian PlayStation magazine circa GT2 that PD were hesitant to include damage as it was "important that they did not get into a situation where one car could look damaged but another couldn't". I don't mind if physical damage doesn't make it into GT5, but I always wondered why they didn't include internal damage to stop players from using other cars as brakes.

 

[ALPHA]

With this press release from SCEA (Sony Computer Entertainment America), Gran Turismo 5 Prologue is now confirmed for a North American release.

Gran Tursimo™5 Prologue
FACT SHEET

Publisher: Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc. (SCEA)
Developer: Polyphony Digital, Inc.
Platform: PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™)
Genre: Racing
Rating: “RP” for Rating Pending

OVERVIEW

With more than 47 million units shipped worldwide, the award-winning Gran Turismo™ franchise has raced far beyond a driving simulator experience; it is a global lifestyle. Setting the bar to unprecedented heights of realism, quality of design and physics technology with every product release, famed developer Polyphony Digital, Inc. continues to obscure the line between simulation and reality with the newest iteration of its blockbuster franchise, Gran Turismo™ 5 Prologue, exclusively for PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™).

Available on Blu-ray Disc™ (BD) and as a download via PLAYSTATION®Network, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue showcases the automotive experience that is imminent with Gran Turismo 5. Featuring over 40 meticulously detailed cars -- including vehicles by Ferrari, Lotus and Nissan -- for users to race on five beautifully rendered tracks from around the globe, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue runs in stunning Full High Definition at 1080p. Additionally, in conjunction with a robust offline experience, for the first time in the history of the franchise Gran Turismo 5 Prologue will support up to 16 players racing head-to-head online, complete with global leaderboards, to quell any question of who is the best driver in the “World of GT.” Furthermore, a feature called My Garage allows users to develop a personal profile page within the game and interact with other car enthusiasts from around the globe.

Dedicated to expanding the user’s immersion in automotive culture, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue will feature access to Gran Turismo™ TV, a dedicated online channel available exclusively from PLAYSTATION Network that delivers some of the greatest motorsport and manufacturer content that television has to offer.

KEY FEATURES

• A first for the franchise, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue supports online racing with up to 16 drivers racing simultaneously on a beautifully rendered race track.
• Race 30 high-performance and exhaustively detailed cars, including vehicles from Ferrari, Lotus, Nissan and Mitsubishi.
• Race on five stunningly realistic tracks, including the Eiger Nordwand, the London City Track and Suzuka – then race them in reverse and with alternative routes.
• A new physics engine delivers next-generation vehicle handling. True to the heritage of the Gran Turismo franshise, this new physics engine provides unprecedented realism and authentic handling specific to each car.
• A new in-cockpit view provides a unique perspective for racers and features a customized dashboard for each of the cars in Gran Turismo 5 Prologue
• All-new and improved opponent AI for a nail-biting race experience
• Access to Gran Turismo TV: a world of great motoring TV programming online through PLAYSTATION Network.
• My Garage is a personalized homepage feature with a friends list, chat functionality and personal game records to expand the interaction between car enthusiasts in the world of GT.
• Quick Tune facility allows you to adjust power, tires, suspension and much more.
• All in stunning High Definition at 1080p (race: 1080p-60fps, replay: 1080p-30fps)
• Photo Mode gives players the opportunity to photograph their car during the race where they can take advantage of zoom, depth of field and motion blur.

FRANCHISE STATISTICS

North American sales - More than 17.77 million units shipped

• Gran Turismo™ (May 1998 release): 3.99 million
• Gran Turismo™2 (December 1999 release): 3.96 million
• Gran Turismo 3 A-spec (July 2001 release): 7.12 million (Includes GT3 Racing Pack)
• Gran Turismo 4 (February 2005 release): 5.69 million

Worldwide sales - More than 47.22 million units shipped (including GT Concept and GT4 Prologue, which only released in Europe and Asia)

• Gran Turismo: more than 10.85 million
• Gran Turismo 2: more than 9.37 million
• Gran Turismo 3 A-spec: more than 14.87 million (Includes GT3 Racing Pack)
• Gran Turismo 4: more than 9.21 million

 

[Kent]

I'm not really how to respond to the disrespectful thing. bow my head slightly, "no comment."

GT4 is a huge game in terms of the sheer quantity of content. The majority of cars I don't drive, nor do I have much interest in driving them. No doubt modelling all those cars takes a lot of time. I would be perfectly happy if GT5 had a lot less cars & came out sooner with additional cars provided as DLC for those who want them.

The important things for me are improved driving physics & AI & some kind of collision physics if not actual damage (the first rate graphics are already in evidence). I'm just hoping that GT5 does not substitute quantity for quality (which is kind of what GT4 did). I think it's a mistake to feel you're "getting your money's worth" when PD just piles on more & more content.

I feel that a reasonable role for DLC is to add quantity to the existing quality. In a way, I see GT5P as pointing the direction: hopefully it will provide the core experience to which additional content can be added to when GT5 arrives.

Excellent post. Tried to give it rep. couldn't but will mentally note the deed.
I agree with what you're saying and I just hope PD gets it right. 👍
Damage is tricky for me... I'm a tough customer... In some ways I like no damage at all and in others I like a little, other times I want nothing less that absolute reality.

Btw, I saw a press release posted on the last page just before this... Looks great. 👍
Based on how that read out, it looks like GT5 could be great for an online community, we'll definately be doing GTP based races eventually.

 

[buickgnx88]

With this press release from SCEA (Sony Computer Entertainment America), Gran Turismo 5 Prologue is now confirmed for a North American release.

It doesn't specifically say anything about a NA release, it just gives previous sales statistics for the NA Gran Turismo's, unless of course you're referring to the fact that it's in english

 

[Jay]

It doesn't specifically say anything about a NA release, it just gives previous sales statistics for the NA Gran Turismo's, unless of course you're referring to the fact that it's in english

The fact it is a SCEA press release should tip you off

Gran Tursimo™5 Prologue
FACT SHEET

Publisher: Sony Computer Entertainment America Inc. (SCEA)

 

[buickgnx88]

haha well umm....publisher is something i tend to ignore

 

[Paulie Walnuts]

I can only hope that it was hardware limitations that did it in for the sound in GT4 on PS2. Maybe they ran out of disc space or memory for all the sound samples they needed. Maybe the system just couldn't push that number of sounds at one time. These are limitations that the PS3 doesn't have.

Are you serious? A good sound sample in crappy bitrate can sound a lot better and require less space/memory/whatever than a bad sound sample in high bitrate. I wonder how you think PS2 could run the game in the first place when every feature that GT4 didn't deliver seems to be because of PS2's technical limits.

We keep hearing rumors of a new, better sound engine for GT5P, but I find it odd that no one's been able to get their hands on direct-feed video/audio of actual gameplay. So none of us have actually heard it yet. All of the videos released so far use pre-recorded sounds, not in-game. Not the first time PD has done it, but still.. If they want us to stop worrying about the sound, they need to SHOW us that it's been improved.

Yes there is one ingame video with sound:
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/949/949777/dl_2129996.html
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ObWJzo6hRE0 (same video)

Doesn't sound like a huge improvement...

_______

I'm new on this board so probably get flamed but I can't believe how widely people have eaten the "car manufacturers don't like damage" excuse. I have never seen a good explanation for the fact that why there have been 10000 games before and after GT franchise that have had real road cars, damage and cars that could roll over. Now they've promised damage as downloadable update - if manufacturers were so reluctant about this how come they can now suddenly do it as an update when before it wasn't "possible"? Kazunori's statements are conflicting. Altough I personally don't believe that the game sees any damage updates, it's not something you can just "add" to the game in 5 minutes.

 

[solinent]

While I appreciate the positive outlook, I'm not entirely in the same frame of mind.
When I see PD saying that said DLC will be availible, it makes me worry because of all the delays we already recieve. What's to happen in the future when we get a GT5 without aftermarket add-ons or damage, then PD settles our stomachs with claims of DLC, only to end up providing DLC on the same slacker schedule we've dealt with over the last few years.
Fact is, I have no reason to believe PD's tendancy to delay and run behind schedule will change regarding their ability to provide DLC.

Basically, it leaves me worried that GT5 will not be the complete game it should be and the DLC needed to complete the game will not be availible until some time in '09. (that's assuming GT5 gets out before June '08... If GT5 is later than that, I wouldn't expect DLC until late '09 if we were all lucky).

Those are the specific parts that refer to PD being lazy and inable, but the whole post is anti-PD. It's just a question of would you rather have a great game and wait longer, or have a worse game and wait less.

PD's developers and modelers aren't lazy. If you watch some of the videos, they have a board to see what people are doing (dinner, sleep, etc).

They have one specifically for sleeping at work under desks

I'm just saying, these concerns aren't unfounded, but the way you presented them was tiring and disrespectful to the game.

BTW, I don't expect to see this game until maybe march '09, WITH dynamic weather, but no damage. Or something like that. We will get a delay from July '08. It would suck, but that's how it is.

Concluding, in a perfect world we'd see perfect games coming out at perfect times, making large sums of money for the developers. However, this is not the case, and there has to be some tradeoff between budget and quality. GT leans heavily toward quality AND quantity, so there's no doubt a huge budget. But you can't be unrealistic, especially by calling them slackers.

EDIT: your post sounds like PD am evil and they are trying to make a ****load of money.


Another edit:

Another view of what I'm saying is we as consumers can't be whiney about the game that would not exist without some form of DLC in this case. Gran Turismo could easily sell for $100 with the vast amount of content a game with that name entails (and quality).

Also, why do I always start arguments with mods, without realizing it? I'm sorry mod-man

 

[RACECAR]

With this press release from SCEA (Sony Computer Entertainment America), Gran Turismo 5 Prologue is now confirmed for a North American release.

Yes!!!!!!!! They listened finally!

 

[Grand Prix]

I can't believe it. That's AMAZING. ROFL!

 

[Kamus]

Those are the specific parts that refer to PD being lazy and inable, but the whole post is anti-PD. It's just a question of would you rather have a great game and wait longer, or have a worse game and wait less.

PD's developers and modelers aren't lazy. If you watch some of the videos, they have a board to see what people are doing (dinner, sleep, etc).

They have one specifically for sleeping at work under desks

I'm just saying, these concerns aren't unfounded, but the way you presented them was tiring and disrespectful to the game.

BTW, I don't expect to see this game until maybe march '09, WITH dynamic weather, but no damage. Or something like that. We will get a delay from July '08. It would suck, but that's how it is.

Concluding, in a perfect world we'd see perfect games coming out at perfect times, making large sums of money for the developers. However, this is not the case, and there has to be some tradeoff between budget and quality. GT leans heavily toward quality AND quantity, so there's no doubt a huge budget. But you can't be unrealistic, especially by calling them slackers.

EDIT: your post sounds like PD am evil and they are trying to make a ****load of money.


Another edit:

Another view of what I'm saying is we as consumers can't be whiney about the game that would not exist without some form of DLC in this case. Gran Turismo could easily sell for $100 with the vast amount of content a game with that name entails (and quality).

Also, why do I always start arguments with mods, without realizing it? I'm sorry mod-man

You should read my post regarding the Suzuka video, which happens to be the one you posted, it has been taken down from the PD site, speculation on the reasons are at that post.

 

[Quiet_Storm]

The problem with sounds in GT games is that they seem very flat. In a real car you have a lot of noises coming from your engine all at once, most of that is missing from GT's engine noises. Also, as the rev's climdb, you don't just get a rise in pitch, you get a change in tone as well. Your car's engine tone can be very different depending on where in the rev range you are, GT4 just seems to raise a variable in order to manipulate a single sound. Admittedly, they probably don't have too much choice, considering the huge number of additional sounds they would need stored otherwise, but that doesn't change the fact that in evey GT game to date, the engine sounds have been lacking. Hopefully, PS3's blue ray and the hard drive will allow the engine noises to be more dynamic.

The reason why the sounds in the GT series have sounded "flat" is due to them recording the car sound at idle or free revving and digitally raising the RPM. This is what Turn10 did with Forza 1 also and the sound in Forza 1 also sounded very flat. The engine sounds in GT4 and Forza 1 didn't have "load" to them. Turn10 stated that this was how the sounds for their Forza 1 game was recorded. Although KY hasn't said it himself, I assume they did the same thing because that would explain why the sounds are so flat. Either that or they simply recorded the engine sound with the car sitting still and just free revving. Free revving will not sound anywhere near a car accelerating at WOT.

I think in order to have the sounds resemble that of a real life car at WOT, they would have to record the sound at WOT. Turn10 did this for Forza 2 by putting the cars on dynojets and recording the engine sounds at WOT, part throttle and also rpm drop. When I play Forza 2, I do notice a huge difference over Forza 1 in terms of engine sound. Forza 2's cars do sound like they are under load when you're at WOT in the game and also has a flatter sound when you're part throttle, just like in real life.

I believe this is what PD will need to do in order to simulate how a car would sound at WOT. They can always take it a step further and record the sound at various points of part throttle, then full throttle and RPM drop. That would absolutely blow my mind if I am able to hear the difference in engine tone at 25% throttle, 50% throttle, 75% throttle and 100% throttle.💡


Here's a video I found that shows how they recorded the sound for the previous GT series. You'll notice at 1:30 into the video, the car is just sitting there free revving. You'll also notice when they take the car out to test the physics/handling of the cars, it sounds much meaner under full acceleration. I know there are different variables and all that crap like atmospheric conditions and air density making the same car sound different on different days. There's no way it'll be a perfect match for every car. I'm just talking about the "flatness" of the engine sound and what could be done to give it a little more "umph".

 

[HoffY]

Two things spring to mind after reading cudadude2's info post.

1) the same ppl are still their at GT making the game. Perhaps this is why i feel they keep making the same mistakes and/or missing putting in what a lot of users seem to want?

2)They say GT5P is a test bed (or whatever you want ot say) for GT5. If this is the case... then how the hell do they get OUR feedback from testing it? I havn't once been asked nor have i seen someone get asked by PD what i felt was wrong with GT4P or GTHD and i suspect after GT5P hits we wont get asked either.

Hmmm I dont know why but i love GT but i always seem to feel as though they miss so much potential even though they are always a good game once released.

 

[HuskyNSX]

Did anybody noticed that they misspelled "best motoring" on those videos? They wrote "best mortoring"

here are some vids showing gt tv

http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/949/949777/vids_1.html

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I'm new on this board so probably get flamed but I can't believe how widely people have eaten the "car manufacturers don't like damage" excuse. I have never seen a good explanation for the fact that why there have been 10000 games before and after GT franchise that have had real road cars, damage and cars that could roll over.

It's a fact? Really? I don't even think you could list 10,000 games that even have licensed production cars in them let alone games with licensed production cars that have real damage and roll over... but you obviously do or you would not have emphasized it being a "fact", so by all means, share this factual list of games that qualify if you can. Otherwise please leave the gross exaggerations to the politicians. 👍

A Real Life Chevelle 454 sounds NOTHING like the **** sounds that GT4 MADE it sound like.

Right... because every single real life '70 Chevelle 454 more than thirty years later sounds exactly the same... right?

And i've been in and around a highly modified Chevelle that had a factual 700+ horsepower and it DID NOT sound anything like what PD DID make a highly modified Chevelle sound like.

Right... because every single real life '70 Chevelle 454 that has been highly modified have all been highly modified using the exact same parts... and even if they didn't, everyone knows that all mods no matter who made them will all sound exactly the same... right?

It was LOUD and Rumbled and the windows vibrated in buildings it was parked next to, and it DID NOT sound like a industrial vacuum cleaner.
I won't even mention some of the other American cars i've been around that are in GT4 that also sound nothing like what GT4 had them sounding like.
Heck i got some ford mustang neighbors, that have modified their Stangs, and damn do they sound GOOD.

Next time go to a classic car show with several of the same model cars and guess what... they almost all will have different sounds ESPECIALLY if they have been modified.

If PD made all the cars exactly the way you claim they "should" sound like I can gurentee there would just as many claiming the sounds are wrong based on their experience with a different car of the exact same model.

There are plently of example's of the real world difference compared to what PD FAILED to get right.

Right to you, but considering all the variables in the real world, there is no such thing as "right"... but it truly amazes me that someone who sits in a highly modified car then assumes they are now a qualified expert to judge how ALL '70 Chevelle 454s should sound.

Need for Speed, PGR, Test Drive, DiRT, TOCA. They all have better engine sound than GT. At full revs, they actually SOUND like cars at full revs instead of sounding like a dustbuster. NFS and TOCA especially.

Perhaps you didn't read my post clearly enough:

You obviously have a lot more factual data than I then. So would you please list for us practically every other developer out there that has come up with a better way of doing car audio than PD and the proof that shows their method is indeed superior and who's results are more realistic.

Not only is that not a list of practically every other developer or even game, but you offer absolutely no proof that they are better and more realistic... which is why I also said...

It sounds very much like you are expressing a great deal of personal preference, opinion, and speculation - but if you have actual facts to back up your statement I'm all to happy to see it. 👍

On top of that, several of the games you listed have in my opinion very over exaggerated arcade style exhaust sounds... now maybe that's what you like, but just because you like it doesn’t make it more "real". It does make it more of personal preference though.

I'm not even suggesting PD did a perfect job with car sounds in GT4, nor would I ever, far from it in fact, because frankly, that would be an impossible task unless there was only one car ever made for all 700+ cars in GT4 thus insuring that they are recording the only car that can be compared to it - as explained already, because in the real world the same model cars often don't sound the same either due to countless numbers of variables, also already discussed in this thread.

It's bad enough when someone posts a youtube video of some real car and use that sound to say "hey, this sounds different then how it sounds in GT4"... ignoring so many factors like, differences in car tuning, modifications, weather conditions, recording equipment, where the mic was placed, and of course the added S:N noise from compression.

 

[Kamus]

It's a fact? Really? I don't even think you could list 10,000 games that even have licensed production cars in them let alone games with licensed production cars that have real damage and roll over... but you obviously do or you would not have emphasized it being a "fact", so by all means, share this factual list of games that qualify if you can. Otherwise please leave the gross exaggerations to the politicians. 👍





Right... because every single real life '70 Chevelle 454 more than thirty years later sounds exactly the same... right?


Right... because every single real life '70 Chevelle 454 that has been highly modified have all been highly modified using the exact same parts... and even if they didn't, everyone knows that all mods no matter who made them will all sound exactly the same... right?


Next time go to a classic car show with several of the same model cars and guess what... they almost all will have different sounds ESPECIALLY if they have been modified.

If PD made all the cars exactly the way you claim they "should" sound like I can gurentee there would just as many claiming the sounds are wrong based on their experience with a different car of the exact same model.


Right to you, but considering all the variables in the real world, there is no such thing as "right"... but it truly amazes me that someone who sits in a highly modified car then assumes they are now a qualified expert to judge how ALL '70 Chevelle 454s should sound.







Perhaps you didn't read my post clearly enough:

Not only is that not a list of practically every other developer or even game, but you offer absolutely no proof that they are better and more realistic... which is why I also said...



On top of that, several of the games you listed have in my opinion very over exaggerated arcade style exhaust sounds... now maybe that's what you like, but just because you like it doesn’t make it more "real". It does make it more of personal preference though.

I'm not even suggesting PD did a perfect job with car sounds in GT4, nor would I ever, far from it in fact, because frankly, that would be an impossible task unless there was only one car ever made for all 700+ cars in GT4 thus insuring that they are recording the only car that can be compared to it - as explained already, because in the real world the same model cars often don't sound the same either due to countless numbers of variables, also already discussed in this thread.

It's bad enough when someone posts a youtube video of some real car and use that sound to say "hey, this sounds different then how it sounds in GT4"... ignoring so many factors like, differences in car tuning, modifications, weather conditions, recording equipment, where the mic was placed, and of course the added S:N noise from compression.

Sorry, there's just no way around the issue, the sounds in GT4 are very underwhelming, compared to even arcady games like the ones found in the NFS series, lets not even get going with GTR, or their newest creation Race 07, the sounds in Race 07 are nothing short of breath taking compared to what we hear in GT4.
One of the really big differences is also in the race cars, the race car sounds in GT4 are horrible, the diferential sound is really bad, Take a spin on the Race 07 demo and you'll see what i mean, it sounds just like it does in a real race car.
This is a problem that should've been adressed by the time GT3 game out, it hasn't.
The reason always seem to be the same, they spend a lot of time in making the cars look awsome, but improvements in other areas are very incremental, if any.

Hopefully for GT5 we'll finally see some improvements, but at this point in time, i just wouldn't hold my breath for it to happen.

PD has needed, for a long time now. To start completley from scratch and get rid of all the legacy assets that they still work with to this day.

Physics is another area that has been improved, but not reworked from scratch, and still based in old assets.
Hopefully the new physics mode is a whole new way of making them, or else it will just be updated physics of something that is broken from it's roots and can't possibly yield accurate results.
So, while the jury is still out regarding sounds and physics, it doesn't look good from what we've seen.

 

[Tenacious D]

I can't believe how widely people have eaten the "car manufacturers don't like damage" excuse. I have never seen a good explanation for the fact that why there have been 10000 games before and after GT franchise that have had real road cars, damage and cars that could roll over.

Just to add to what Digital-Nitrate said, there were darn few rally games in which you could roll your car, and if memory serves, that was Richard Burns Rally. And that would be one game. And of course those were rally cars, not road cars.

Now they've promised damage as downloadable update - if manufacturers were so reluctant about this how come they can now suddenly do it as an update when before it wasn't "possible"? Kazunori's statements are conflicting. Altough I personally don't believe that the game sees any damage updates, it's not something you can just "add" to the game in 5 minutes.

Kazunori said it wasn't possible due to the limitations of the PS1 and 2. Toca did a credible job of damage on the PS2, but it was rather simplified. Colin McRae Dirt is much more realistic, but of course it's on much more powerful PS3 and 360 hardware.

If you go back to previous Gran turismo games and check a replay of a bot car, you'll see that they only have a digital brake, i.e. full on braking or no braking at all. This is one of the things Polyphony skimped on in order to make GT look and play as good as it did, as everything the game recreates has to be calculated and processed. Take Toca again. Only your car had full physics, and only your car had engine sound. Not to mention, the backgrounds were fairly plain and faded looking. Codemasters cut a lot of corners to get as many as 24 cars on the track at once.

From all indications, Polyphony finally has very few corners to cut, thanks to the PS3.

So, while the jury is still out regarding sounds and physics, it doesn't look good from what we've seen.

Uhh... whatever...

Let me ask some you who seem more eager to point out what to complain about and demand then be happy for whats in store: Have any of you developed a game before? have you actually gotten real world sounds for the cars and tryed to implyment them? Have you tryed to add damage models? Seriously, I think some of you guys are asking to be dissapointed the way your demanding things. I for one am happy for the fact that I have so many cars, tracks, and features I got in GT4 and I'm currently surprised and happy that there will be 16 cars now, Daytona will be included and it will have online (snip)

This is why I go back and forth between Forza and Gran Turismo. With Forza, I get to create race cars, all kinds of race cars, and paint them up with my own liveries and slap my own name and number on them. The physics are very mature now but there are still issues that aren't quite right, along with lacking a decent driver view. And let's not talk about hardware reliability.

On top of that, Forza is kind of a GT wannabe. When I want the real deal, I return to Gran Turismo. And man, am I about to return.

 

[ALPHA]

Two videos from Ruliweb.

http://ruliweb.empas.com/data/rulinews/read.htm?page=&num=15718&find=&ftext=

Fuji Speedway F - BMW Z4 3.0i '03
http://ruliwebfile.empas.com/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl01.wmv
http://61.97.69.169/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl01.wmv (mirror)

Suzuka
http://ruliwebfile.empas.com/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl02.wmv
http://61.97.69.169/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl02.wmv (mirror)

 

[Jay]

Two videos from Ruliweb.

http://ruliweb.empas.com/data/rulinews/read.htm?page=&num=15718&find=&ftext=

Fuji Speedway F - BMW Z4 3.0i '03
http://ruliwebfile.empas.com/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl01.wmv
http://61.97.69.169/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl01.wmv (mirror)

Suzuka
http://ruliwebfile.empas.com/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl02.wmv
http://61.97.69.169/mpeg3/tgs2007/sce/ruliweb_tgs2007_sce_gt5_pl02.wmv (mirror)

Thanks ALPHA 👍

Downloading now.

 

[ALPHA]

Thanks ALPHA 👍

No worries. 👍

Another video at FISCO with the F430 using the cockpit view -- the player looks left and right (note the increased lateral movement compared to GT4 and GTHD Concept).
http://arena.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/news/20070922/1002958/

 

[Scaff]

I'm new on this board so probably get flamed but I can't believe how widely people have eaten the "car manufacturers don't like damage" excuse. I have never seen a good explanation for the fact that why there have been 10000 games before and after GT franchise that have had real road cars, damage and cars that could roll over. Now they've promised damage as downloadable update - if manufacturers were so reluctant about this how come they can now suddenly do it as an update when before it wasn't "possible"? Kazunori's statements are conflicting. Altough I personally don't believe that the game sees any damage updates, it's not something you can just "add" to the game in 5 minutes.

I haven't bought into it, rather I work in the Motor Industry and can 100% assure you that manufacturers do have rather a large issue with how there products are displayed in games and sims.

When I worked for Renault the marketing department had full sign-off for any vehicle included in a game, if they were not happy with how it was being shown the licence gave us the right to force a change or refuse to let the car be used.

Ford themselves are on record of having said that they will not allow any of there cars to be shown in games with damage than intrudes into the passenger space, rolling over or hitting pedestrians. Click on the link below tp read Ford's marketing manager on the subject...

http://pc.gamezone.com/news/09_11_06_10_41AM.htm

...

What are some of the guidelines that you require a publisher/developer to follow?



MB: We can’t have explosions. Rollovers – we generally don’t like to see rollovers. We know it does happen, but [we want it to be] minimal, if at all. No gratuitous sex, violence, obscene language. Pedestrians cannot be hit by a car. We’re always very safety-conscious. We will allow pedestrians on the course provided that they are not able to be hit. Provided that they vanish out of the way, what have you. Our cars can’t be put in any bad light, you know, where they’re out to do bad things to people.



How do you feel about body damage? It seems like car companies don’t want their cars to be scratched in a game. I understand that, but at the same time, based on the crash tests you show on TV, have you ever considered including an element like that in the game?



MB: Yes. We are probably more liberal than people think on damage now. In Test Drive Unlimited the cars receive very little damage. But you’ll find it in other games. For example, Need For Speed Carbon – you’ll see a lot more damage. The only thing we will not allow is for the passenger cabin to be compromised where someone could be physically injured. Now, they could be theoretically injured in a crash where the front end is bunched up and the passenger cabin is still intact. But the goal at all times it to promote safety, and making sure that Ford vehicles don’t get portrayed in an unsafe way. But we are not against damage-modelling in games. We do realism in a game, and we think that makes the game more real.

Now keep in mind that Ford are one of the most liberal of manufacturers as far as damage goes.

As for the roll over point, this one has been discussed before, and in the past I have asked for examples of games that contain licensed road cars that roll over, to date no one has been able to name a game that featured it. Yes plenty of games with licensed 'race' cars have it, but not road cars.

You are also being massively simplistic by grouping damage in one big group, take the level of damage that we see in something like the Project Gothem series, its purely cosmetic and has almost no effect on the cars behaviour at all, light break, a bumper may hang off and that's about it. It could be called damage, but its a long way from what we see in say Colin McRae Dirt or F1:CE in which its possible to damage a car to the point at which it can't drive. Two rather different things, yet while all these titles claim to have damage, the first type is a lot easier to get manufacturers to agree to than the second.

Now as far as damage in GT5 and all these discussions we have a thread dedicated to it, I would advice having a read of it and if you wish continuing the disciussion in that thread....

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=93486

...oh and please don't consider this a flame, its nothing of the sort, its a rebuttal. I neither agree with you, nor do I consider your comment about manufacturers to be accurate.


Sorry but we have not 'eaten into' anything here at all, rather commercial realities are at work here. Keep in mind how much the Bronco Roll-over cases cost Ford, or how badly damaged Audi was in the US by the 60 minutes piece, which is an excellent example as it was not even a problem with the car, rather the entire damage was caused by the perception placed in peoples minds by the programme; with the end result being that Audi re-named an entire model range and suffered in the US market for decades.

The motor industry is a rather large one with a lot of money involved, when a manufacturer licences a model to a game, the most certainly do retain control and final sign-off on it, to not do so would be commercially inept.

Scaff

 

[Biggles]

Ford themselves are on record of having said that they will not allow any of there cars to be shown in games with damage than intrudes into the passenger space, rolling over or hitting pedestrians.

It seems to me that people on GTplanet have all sorts of unrealistic demands. However, one basic expectation I have, which could definitely be accomodated, because it has already appeared in other games is:
internal damage that effects the cars performance, if not the car's appearance. Beyond that, I really think there should be some kind of visual damage, similar to Forza, which shows the consequences of screwing up. The problem is not that the damage wouldn't look "real" enough, the problem is that no damage at all looks absurdly, awkwardly unreal.

If it's true that some or all manufacturers will not allow realistic damage (roll-overs, damage to the drivers compartment etc.) to their cars in-game, then holding out for "realistic damage" is pointless, & it would make more
sense for Kaz & PD to start implementing some kind of damage now.