Presidential Debates

[Arwin]

To me a debate is something that allows people to grow in understanding of the issue at hand and of each others' standpoint, and to come closer to solutions to problems underlying the points of debate. In that sense, I'm guessing without watching that both parties lost bigtime, just as most people now in this thread.

 

[ledhed]

This particular debate was a chance for Kerry to get back in the race. he needed to score a slam dunk or bush needed to self destruct. the substance of their views on this issue is well known, or in kerrys case nebulouse. kerry had a chance there to show he had a SOLID opinion , he IMO did not, he only repeated his past statements. bush sounded like a parrot responding with the " he's a flip flopper " ....tell us something we DON'T know. The only substantive thing to come out was a clear difference on handling North Korea and the fact that Kerry is a neophite in reguards to dealing with asia , and would IMO give away the store while they clap him on the back and call him funny names in Korean. kerry showed in NO WAY that he is a capable leader. That is what the undecided are looking for along with the policys. can this man lead my country ? In Kerrys case , he has two more debates and a few months to come up with something, Until then even those that may aggree with his policys will be scared to put him in charge.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff: You seem pretty damn certain about that. If you argue that France, Germany, and Russia would not make any meaningful contribution how can you argue that England, Australia and Poland actually make a meaningful coalition? Also, i think losing Russia was especially stupid because they already are already fighting Jihadists.

We're currently paying 90% of the bill according to Kerry. I'm just saying that even if it were possible for us to get France, Germany and Russia to help us go in to Iraq (which it wasn't) they wouldn't have done much to reduce that percentage.

 

[cardude2004]

There are 2 more debates for president and one for the vice president.

 

[wellyrn]

Im sorry but it is really frustrating. You guys can't bend your mind around anything outside of your political party. I do think ledhed is a one sided fool as are all of you, Republicans and Democrats alike. You respond to my questions using the same stupid arguements that I see on TV every day. It's disapointing that I can't find anyone who thinks independantly to meaningfully discuss your politics. I WANT people to disagree with me but im not going to aknowlegde Republican/Democrat talking points as opinions. There are more than 2 views of the world.

I don't give a crap about John Kerry. I am not a Liberal. I am not a Democrat. I am not anti American. In the real world you have to defend your own position, not just attack the other, because there aren't only 2 options.

I am trying to discuss ISSUES with you not which candidate you like. I don't care who you vote for.

 

[Solid Fro]

Does someone need a bottle?

Don't get mad when no one agrees with you.

 

[High-Test]

Wow wellyrn, you post totally contradicted almost every other post I've seen of yours. 👍

 

[1X83Z]

Putting politics before protecting our troops? Sounds like a sleezball Liberal.

I was so close to changing my vote and going Bush like my heart says!! Literally! I was truly going to put a Bush sticker on my car.

But then I came on here and saw you going on again with no idea what you're talking about and I'm still voting for Kerry. Damn.

It's funny because you think Bush won because you agree with his policies, not his debate style. Though all the polls show Kerry won among undecided voters, who aren't blindly aligning themselves. Like you are.

 

[Solid Fro]

Those undecided voters are also the uneducated ones.

Gore, Perot, Dukakis, and Mondale all won their debates according to Gallup. Yet, none of them won the election.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/default.aspx?ci=13237&pg=2

 

[Pako]

What Kerry confirmed for me is that he'll fly where ever the political winds might blow him. The thought of a person that can be so easily manipulated while running our country scares the tar out of me. At least with Bush I know what to expect, good, bad, or indifferent. Another point not raised yet is the fact that Bush has been running this county and was probably disgusted that he even had to spend his time to prepare for it. Meanwhile, Kerry with his record of missing his public meetings and recreating show clear signs of having more energy and wits about him. Judging on debating skills alone, Kerry won the debate hands down. Judging on content, Kerry didn't have a leg to stand on.

wellyrn,
Don't apologize if your going to follow your apology with a "but". We're talking opinions here, please remember that.

 

[Arwin]

Well, looking at the numbers, I'd say that Kerry gaining 5% and taking over the lead after this debate does seem to speak for itself.

 

[milefile]

For any poll that says Kerry has a lead I can find one that says Bush has a lead. Polls do speak for themselves, and nothing more.

And to your comment on the previous page regarding the purpose of a debate, I have to respond by saying I learned nothing from that debate Every single thing either of them said was old news. It was a waste of my time.

 

[Duke]

...which is why I didn't even bother to watch it. Everyone who doesn't like Bush will use the slightest mispronunciation of every word as proof that he's a drooling idiot, and everyone who doesn't like Kerry will look for every excuse to call him a flip-flopper. In the meantime, neither candidate is going to say anything that even remotely responds to what the other said; they're merely going to deliver canned responses to canned questions.

 

[Danoff]

I tried to look at this debate objectively and I came away with the following feeling.

Kerry is a smooth character and won the style competition (which I don't care about).

Bush's statements had sound reasoning, but he didn't communicate it as well as he might have.

That results in a Bush win for me because all I care about is sound reasoning behind the issues.

 

[High-Test]

...which is why I didn't even bother to watch it. Everyone who doesn't like Bush will use the slightest mispronunciation of every word as proof that he's a drooling idiot, and everyone who doesn't like Kerry will look for every excuse to call him a flip-flopper. In the meantime, neither candidate is going to say anything that even remotely responds to what the other said; they're merely going to deliver canned responses to canned questions.

That was so brilliant my brain is fried.

 

[wellyrn]

Im not mad... I am very disapointed. Now my only question is if there was a brain to wash in the first place?

 

[87chevy]

well, I think the only real thing that came out of it was the North Korea issue and Bush has my vote on that. Kerry wants to do whatever Kim Jong Il wants... that is not what i want our President to do. Kerry wants the world involved in Iraq, but not with Korea??? Huh?

Also, something that's been bugging me: The Body Armor issue. You know, it doesn't take 87billion dollars to put vests on our soldiers backs... So what is all that money for? Is it possible that there is 86billion dollars worth of 'Pork' attached by republicans for their personal interests? Where can we get an Itimized list for this bill?

I want to see what the canidates views on the environment and big business is. The environment is important to me, Since it's what we live in, and depend on, but i know some of you could care less. Anyways that's my 3 cents.

 

[High-Test]

Im not mad... I am very disapointed. Now my only question is if there was a brain to wash in the first place?

there was and still is. it is a big mass of neurons and nerve cells that contain my memory and knowledge sitting in my skull.

 

[Danoff]

Also, something that's been bugging me: The Body Armor issue. You know, it doesn't take 87billion dollars to put vests on our soldiers backs... So what is all that money for? Is it possible that there is 86billion dollars worth of 'Pork' attached by republicans for their personal interests? Where can we get an Itimized list for this bill?

It's not pork. Military operations are extremely expensive. Operating one jet or one tank for a short mission probalby costs more than you'd believe. Government doesn't do things efficiently but when it comes to national defense, that's the only way we get it done. I'd like to see the bill too though.

I want to see what the canidates views on the environment and big business is.

That's the next debate, but why do they have to have a view on big business other than that it is good?

 

[87chevy]

It's not pork. Military operations are extremely expensive. Operating one jet or one tank for a short mission probalby costs more than you'd believe. Government doesn't do things efficiently but when it comes to national defense, that's the only way we get it done. I'd like to see the bill too though.

Being in the military, i probably have a better idea of how much it costs than most. But i'd like to see the bill. I bet there is money in it that has nothing to do with the war. It happens all the time. Actually i think there should be a constitutional amendment or something, that states that a federal Bill, can only address one, or maybe two issues. That would eliminate 'pork', and probably prevent bills that are 300 pages long. *edit*how can you state that it's not pork when you haven't seen the bill? you should have said 'I doubt it is pork', or 'it probably isn't a bunch of pork'*/edit*

That's the next debate, but why do they have to have a view on big business other than that it is good?

Well, i didn't say they had to. I said i want to know their views on those issues. if they don't talk about it, then they don't talk about it. But it's important to me as a voter. And big Business is not always good. you seem to have blind faith in that. and Big Business/Industries also are some of the worst defilers of our environment.

 

[Solid Fro]

What poll shows Kerry in the lead? None that I could find. Read and weep.


Pew Research poll

Bush 48%

Kerry 41%

Nader 2%

Undecided 9%

1002 Registered voters October 1-3



Zogby poll

Bush 46%

Kerry 43%

Nader 2.4%

Undecided 8%

1036 Likely voters October 1-3



Gallup poll

Bush 49%

Kerry 47%

Nader 1%

Undecided 1%

934 Registered voters October 1-3



Fox News poll

Bush 46%

Kerry 42%

Nader 1%

Undecided 11%

1000 Likely voters September 24



Washington Post/ABC News poll

Bush 51%

Kerry 46%

Nader 1%

Undecided 2%

1470 Registered voters October 5

 

[Danoff]

how can you state that it's not pork when you haven't seen the bill? you should have said 'I doubt it is pork', or 'it probably isn't a bunch of pork'

Correct.

And big Business is not always good. you seem to have blind faith in that. and Big Business/Industries also are some of the worst defilers of our environment.

In some sense big business - large corporations are always good. In order to be considered big you have to provide jobs for lots and lots of people. And you have to offer services that lots and lots of people happily trade their dollars to get. Those things are both good and they are always required for a business to get big and stay big.

Not all businesses (big and small) or individuals for that matter are good or bad all around. Some of them bend rules or bribe congressmen. Some of them screw over their investors and end up in jail and bankrupt. Some of them pollute the enviornment. But there is nothing inherently wrong with huge corporations any more than there is anything inherently wrong with free individuals.

Just because individuals commit a huge percentage of murders doesn't mean that individuals are bad in general. Same thing goes for big businesses and the environment. Right now I work for an organization that has over 6000 employees. They also happen to be extremely environmentally conscious. Too much so in fact that they take measures to protect the environment that are not only irritating to me, but that do little for the environment.

Anyway there isn't anything wrong with Big Business so I don't really know why you mentioned it in your post. If you want to talk about the environment let's talk about all environmental offenders, big, small, and government.

 

[Arwin]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek/

By Brian Braiker
Newsweek
Updated: 5:30 p.m. ET Oct. 4, 2004

Oct. 2 - With a solid majority of voters concluding that John Kerry outperformed George W. Bush in the first presidential debate on Thursday, the president’s lead in the race for the White House has vanished, according to the latest NEWSWEEK poll. In the first national telephone poll using a fresh sample, NEWSWEEK found the race now statistically tied among all registered voters, 47 percent of whom say they would vote for Kerry and 45 percent for George W. Bush in a three-way race.

Removing Independent candidate Ralph Nader, who draws 2 percent of the vote, widens the Kerry-Edwards lead to three points with 49 percent of the vote versus the incumbent’s 46 percent. Four weeks ago the Republican ticket, coming out of a successful convention in New York, enjoyed an 11-point lead over Kerry-Edwards with Bush pulling 52 percent of the vote and the challenger just 41 percent.

Among the three-quarters (74 percent) of registered voters who say they watched at least some of Thursday’s debate, 61 percent see Kerry as the clear winner, 19 percent pick Bush as the victor and 16 percent call it a draw. After weeks of being portrayed as a verbose “flip-flopper” by Republicans, Kerry did better than a majority (56 percent) had expected. Only about 11 percent would say the same for the president’s performance while more than one-third (38 percent) said the incumbent actually did worse that they had expected. Thirty-nine percent of Republicans felt their man out-debated the challenger but a full third (33 percent) say they felt Kerry won.

 

[Solid Fro]

Newsweek compared to Gallup and Pew?

Laughable.

 

[agent R]

Kerry was stronger than I expected but I don't think he won. It was pretty close between the two but I think Bush looked stronger in this first round. He effectively destroyed Kerry on North Korea and I don't think Kerry managed to do too much damage about Iraq.

What did you think?

I'm korean ,but I don't like N- Korea.
they are very rude and disgusting.

if there is a way not S-Korea to be destroyed,I welcome America to bomb the N-Korea.

 

[ledhed]

The only poll that counts is in November.

 

[Solid Fro]

You sound like Terry McAuliffe, ledhed.

 

[Arwin]

Newsweek compared to Gallup and Pew?

Laughable.

If you say so.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/default.aspx?ci=13240

Kerry Pulls Even With Bush at 49%-49%
Bush retains strength on several key dimensions, while Kerry leads on economy


by Frank Newport

Page: 1, 2, 3 Next

GALLUP NEWS SERVICE

PRINCETON, NJ -- The presidential election is roughly back where it was in August, with John Kerry and George W. Bush tied among likely voters, and with President Bush's job approval squarely at the midpoint of 50%. This marks a significant change from September, when three separate CNN/USA Today/Gallup polls showed Bush ahead of Kerry.

Impact of First Debate

There is little question that Thursday night's presidential debate has made a significant difference in the presidential race.

Gallup's poll of debate watchers on Thursday night showed that Kerry was perceived as doing a better job than Bush by a 53% to 37% margin. In the latest poll, conducted Oct. 1-3, this perception of Kerry's stronger debate performance has expanded, no doubt fueled by post-debate media discussion and spin. Fifty-seven percent of the broad sample of all Americans now say Kerry did the better job in the debate, compared to only 25% who say Bush did the better job.

Additionally, 71% of Americans say they watched or listened to the debate, while another 13% say they saw news coverage of the confrontation at the University of Miami.

 

[Solid Fro]

Yup, Gallup got it right. If you would look at the poll and the link that I posted that has the full poll, it actually includes Nader and undecided voters. Bush beats out Kerry by 2%.

 

[Carl.]

Quotefest!!

Yup, Gallup got it right. If you would look at the poll and the link that I posted that has the full poll, it actually includes Nader and undecided voters. Bush beats out Kerry by 2%.

Gallup poll

Bush 49%

Kerry 47%

Nader 1%

Undecided 1%

934 Registered voters October 1-3

How is this link any different from the one Arwin posted? Have you read the title of the report?

To me a debate is something that allows people to grow in understanding of the issue at hand and of each others' standpoint, and to come closer to solutions to problems underlying the points of debate. In that sense, I'm guessing without watching that both parties lost bigtime, just as most people now in this thread.

Ditto


One last:

The only poll that counts is in November.