Presidential Election: 2012

  • Thread starter Omnis
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Untrustworthy people, but a group of untrustworthy people might actually make a better decision then just one schmuck.

One guy is less likely to make a corrupt decision on his own than if three people around him are encouraging him to do it.

I'm not saying give the government ultimate power, but I don't think they should be powerless either.

Small government != No government.

The job of government is to protect citizens' rights. It must provide sufficient force (because might does not make right) to prevent citizens' rights being breached. This necessitates security forces, both domestic (police) and international (armed forces).
 
You'd be treated unfairly if all the went away because something you stand for is no longer an option and you've had something stripped from you.
This is how my system would operate.

Social Security, Medicare, all that stuff...would still exist. But they would be opt-out programs. If you want to pay into it then you can, and then you will be entitled to benefits. But if you don't want to pay into it you can opt out, thus making you ineligible for benefits. I feel that system would appease both parties, by allowing a choice. I like choices.

Do you think it would appease both parties? Honest question because I don't see any holes in that idea.
 
Small government != No government.

The job of government is to protect citizens' rights. It must provide sufficient force (because might does not make right) to prevent citizens' rights being breached. This necessitates security forces, both domestic (police) and international (armed forces).

I've just heard and seen many people talk as if there shouldn't be any government at all (not saying you suggest this) so it's hard to tell where supporters of small government draw the line.


This is how my system would operate.

Social Security, Medicare, all that stuff...would still exist. But they would be opt-out programs. If you want to pay into it then you can, and then you will be entitled to benefits. But if you don't want to pay into it you can opt out, thus making you ineligible for benefits. I feel that system would appease both parties, by allowing a choice. I like choices.

Do you think it would appease both parties? Honest question because I don't see any holes in that idea.

Yes, I believe that would work and appease both parties, and it's something I support to a degree.

Doing away with those programs altogether wouldn't.
 
Krugman approves of engineered storms to help the economy.

How is Santa Catarina? We might need a place to move after 'Merica goes to poo. I'm thinking beautiful scenery, lovely german-descended bundas, Mises Brasil, and Oktoberfest celebrations make for a nice destination.
 
It's not a bigger issue because people are worried about their job security or getting a job than some inbred whackjob's Youtube video promoting hatred on Muslims.

I'm in the same boat as the jobs people.

I'm out of a job too. We just shut down a family business I had worked at for almost 20 years, and had been open for almost 40. I've been back in college since february trying to start my life over, but I'll be damned if I would vote for someone who would lliterally lie right to America's face and blame a terrorist attack on a youtube video just so he wouldn't lose a few points in the election. That whole situation shows what kind of person he is.
 
I've just heard and seen many people talk as if there shouldn't be any government at all (not saying you suggest this) so it's hard to tell where supporters of small government draw the line.

If they're shouting "🤬 THE SYSTEM" and daubing "A" everywhere, they support no government. They'll also be the first to complain when bigger people - or more people - take their stuff, only there'll be no-one to complain to.

Generally speaking you'll find that small government proponents all support a small, central government with national powers covering the police and army (usually with equal contribution [via taxation] from all voting-age citizens). Some, in nations that require it, will support regional subdivisions of governance - in the case of the USA, State, County, Municipality - and representation to the national government.

There'll be riders on this, but that's the baseline.
 
How is Santa Catarina? We might need a place to move after 'Merica goes to poo. I'm thinking beautiful scenery, lovely german-descended bundas, Mises Brasil, and Oktoberfest celebrations make for a nice destination.
:lol:

Yeah, it would be fun, for a month. You guys are still in a way better shape than Brazil. And when America goes to poo we will go together. Try north maybe?
 
But what if it's what the people want? I don't think big government is all doom and gloom that some people like to make it.
You want smokers out of restaurants. Government does it as a health policy. You are happy. Then they use the same argument to change how your fries are cooked and prevent you from buying the kinds of soft drinks you like in any size. Your want was answered and then bit you in the ass.

You don't want gay people getting married and give your government the power to say who can and can't get married. Later your daughter is denied the right to marry a boy even you approve of for, who knows what reason. But that power was given to them by your vote.

You want to feel safe on an airplane so you give your government the power to hunt down terrorists outside the rules of the Constitution. Next thing you know you are removing your daughter's diaper and helping your grandmother get out of a wheelchair for security purposes.

Your country is in economic trouble. You vote for a man who says he knows who caused the economic problem and will stop them. You vote for him. Next thing you know your son is drafted to hunt these people down in the streets and later sent to invade Poland.

Never has a limited government turned your wants against you, your liberty, or other people and nations. Large, powerful governments have a dark history of doing it...a lot. You studied anthropology and archeology. Tell me, how many limited governments conquered lands, built empires with their military, raped, killed, and pillaged other nations, tortured dissenters, made them entertainment slaves for the masses, and had public executions of a hundred various gruesome forms?

If it was wouldn't people rise up against it?
Where do you live? What country? How did it form? How did every change of power and/or form of government occur when not by a foreign invasion? Even the great Ceasar fell to this. People rise up against it all the time. Royalty has literally lost their head to people rising up. And that is why it is important that a powerful government first make a majority of the population dependent on the system. Keep giving until there are too many who are reliant to want to stand up to you, no matter what you do.

And isn't it always people supporting the government as long as it's on their side? I mean you support smaller government as it takes your side on specific issues.
Rob Peter to pay Paul and you can count on the vote of Paul. It is why in a two party system it is the 20%-40% of undecideds that are important. The rest vote for you because your party says it will give them what they want, even at the cost of others' liberties.

It's only an opinion though, there's nothing factual to say a big government will always trample the rights of the people.
Always? No. But does it have a large ugly history? Yes. From ancient brutal empires to the big ones like Hitler, to modern day cases like Escobar or African warlords. They all came to power by giving the majority what they want and/or in disenfranchising the minorities they dislike. No dictators came out of a limited system.

Political philosophers through history have said that Democracy's biggest threat is from a meddling government. And I'm not just talking the likes of Jefferson, but even visitors who studied the system, such as Alexis de Toqueville

If you ask someone who prefers big government they'll give you the exact same answer with the word small replaced with the word big.
Yes, I've seen Gone With the Wind.

But really your explanation doesn't work. Sure, people would argue that handouts aren't readily given as much or they feel insecure because security isn't as in your face and soldiers aren't marching in other lands. But they will have had nothing taken away from them anymore then I take away from a charity by not donating.

If someone gets in a small government system and feels like they have lost something it is because the big government they got used to did what they always do, make people dependent on them. If a drug dealer does it we consider them horrible. A government does the same thing financially and those who try to stop it are considered inhumane?

Big government takes in order to give. Small government doesn't give as much and thus doesn't take as much.

I'm not advocating large government here, I'm just saying that I don't believe a small government would be really any better or worse than a big one.
A small government would stay out of things like gay marriage, your choice to eat what you want, and require you only be responsible for your decisions and a bare minimum of the costs of protecting your liberties.

Saying a small government will be as bad as a big government is like saying a parent that teaches responsibility is as bad as one that beats their kid every time they screw up on even the smallest of thing, like a mother gluing her two-year-old daughter to a wall for not potty training fast enough.

------------------------
Now for something not so completely different.

For those who think Obama treats other nations and their people well, and is an honest and peaceful individual, here is a story of a Pakistani public figure with great popularity and expected to become the next prime minister. He also leads protest marches against drones and vows that as prime minister he will clear them from Pakistan's skies, even if they have to shoot them down.

On his way to New York for a fundraiser he was pulled out of line at the airport by US immigration officials and detained while they, according to his claims, questioned him on his drone stance. Even if he made that part up, a political figure in an allied country was detained and questioned while legally flying to the US.

Honest and peaceful?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/28/detention-imran-khan-drones
 
I understand your points and there is validity in them. I'm not arguing for pro-big-government here but rather saying I don't think a small government would actually work. Could the US stand to have a smaller government? For sure, but there are still quite a few things I don't believe we should get rid of. It's one of the biggest reason I struggle to like libertarian candidates, even though many of my beliefs fall somewhere in the ideology.

Never has a limited government turned your wants against you, your liberty, or other people and nations. Large, powerful governments have a dark history of doing it...a lot. You studied anthropology and archeology. Tell me, how many limited governments conquered lands, built empires with their military, raped, killed, and pillaged other nations, tortured dissenters, made them entertainment slaves for the masses, and had public executions of a hundred various gruesome forms?

I honestly can't think of any major civilization throughout history that had a limited government in the way you are presenting the idea, but then again I don't know every culture out there. There are several civilizations you could argue for I suppose; early America, Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, but I don't think that's what you are really looking for. As I've said though, I'm not entirely aware of every form of government, I focused more on how people lived and where we came from instead of how different groups were ruled.

If none have existed, then there is no way to tell whether it would work or not. We can only speculate on it. Yes, history is full of many examples for large governments doing bad things and I don't dispute that for a minute, but an extremely limited form of government could allow bad things to happen too. We don't really know.
 
Ultimately it comes down to one restricts freedom and the other does not. The question is whether we need government interference in our lives. There is a minimum requirement to protect liberties, but when you go beyond that government begins to go from protecting liberties to harming them. Government can't give without taking. That point can't be argued. The moment it begins to give something that isn't protecting liberty then justice had to be violated.

Even the most altruistic government harms freedom by its very nature. If you (not you specifucally) want to sacrifice some liberty for a want or need it is unjust to get it by making that same sacrifice for everyone.

It is not that government can't be a good thing. It can. But it is power and force. It must be tempered and contained like any power. Letting the US government go beyond the confines of the Constitution is no less dangerous than allowing a nuclear reactor's energy go beyond it's containment. We have seen that here since 9/11. A government that protected its people and had strict rules in criminal accusations was allowed room to hunt terrorists. It escaped containment. At first it seemed a palatable phone tapping to look for homegrown terrorists. But now just being kin to to someone suspected of terrorism vs Ngen you killed, and drones will be used to se everything we do.

Even when it is not a full fledged tyranny it becomes oppressive.
 
:lol:

Yeah, it would be fun, for a month. You guys are still in a way better shape than Brazil. And when America goes to poo we will go together. Try north maybe?

Nobody like canadian frozen bundas.
 
Ancient Greece
It started out well enough but it didn't last long. Where are they now?

Ancient Rome
Ah, glorious Rome. What a beautifully free and productive society. It didn't last long. The people got comfortable, complacent, let slimy snakes slither their way into the government, and eventually found themselves powerless to fight their loss of liberty and widespread war. Where are they now?

early America
Are there any similarities between early America and early Rome? How about current America and late Rome? Where will we end up?
 
Well unlike Rome, we don't have to worry about Barbarian hordes at the gates of Rome.
Just barbaric TSA agents at security gates. Or, if you believe our government we have terrorists at the gates of America.

That and orgies with old Senators.
They have airport bathrooms now.
 
I'm not a fan of Howard Stern, but this is funny. It just goes to show the stupidity of some people out there. These people are allowed to vote ? and breed ? We're doomed. :nervous: :lol:

Stern did this same thing back in '08, this is the '12 version ..... unreal !

Turn up the speakers and get ready to laugh and say ... WTF PEOPLE - WAKE UP !!!

 
I've voted and sent in my ballot already, and according to the county, my ballot has been received.

I'm done. All there is now are the results.
 
That video scares me. This is why I believe there should be a test every voter must take before voting. Of course, that would discriminate against dumb people. But honestly, if you're too dumb to know where the candidates stand on issues, what the issues even are, or who's even running to begin with, why are you even voting in the first place?
 
That video scares me. This is why I believe there should be a test every voter must take before voting. Of course, that would discriminate against dumb people.
I'm not convinced they are dumb. Some aren't even actually that ignorant. When you have a guy come up to you on the street, put a microphone in your face, and start asking you questions you are thrown off your game. When they ask if it bothers them that Romney is black they most likely hear Obama in their heads. The human mind tries to make sense of the world around us. It is why clouds look like objects, we think animals are doing human things, and so forth.

Studies have shown that if you take an entire paragraph and screw up the spelling of every word but have all the same letters and have the same first and last letters you can read it with little hesitation. The way these questions are worded, whether on purpose for comic value or not, does the same thing. We have two candidates both with their religious backgrounds being made an issue. So if you ask "Does it bother you that Obama is Mormon?" their mind tells them Muslim. Even though he isnt Muslim his supporters wouldn't have an issue with that. Same with bin Laden. We are always trying to kill somebody so the answer to the question is the same no matter what name is mentioned and their brains spew it out without placing a logic test to the question. Keep in mind, they also assume the guy who starts asking questions knows what he is talking about.

I would guarantee half of the smartest people you know would answer similarly. Now, when taking it to the general public half becomes three-fourths or more because people vote like they cheer team sports. Fans defend rapists, murders, drunk drivers and so forth. Or even look at all the Hollywood comebacks. If you are popular for something your fans will always back you. If they ask the average voter that cheers on their party no matter what a question about a bad aspect of their candidate they will always give a defense of their guy, many times without hearing the actual negative point.

But honestly, if you're too dumb to know where the candidates stand on issues, what the issues even are, or who's even running to begin with, why are you even voting in the first place?
I'm pretty sure that we have shown in this thread that people think they know and think they are informed. A peaceful president is one drone striking allies, ordering secret assassinations, and beating a warm drum. A conservative governor created a healthcare mandate, ran for governor as pro-choice, and hiked taxes on businesses. Both are scary and both will lead us down the wrong path, or both are the only hope for saving this country. It just depends on which team you cheer for.

People think they know, think they are right, and will defend nearly any action their guy has done to the contrary. Obama unilaterally bombing countries and attacking our own citizens is the right path to protect us from terrorists and Massachusetts healthcare mandates are the right path for Massachusetts, but not the US.

People know what they want to know and block out anything else. It is how suburban neighbors can be murders, pedophiles, or worse without the guy next door ever knowing.
 


This guy has got my vote. I'm not voting for Romney or Obama, and third parties aren't strong enough to win the popular vote. Not that that really matters in the US with the electoral college deciding the final outcome (in many states they aren't forced to vote with the popular vote). So if I'm going to throw away my vote, I might as well get a good laugh out of it.
 
When you actually vote you don't throw it away. Not voting is throwing it away. Like I did with our elections. 👍

I am pleasantly excited for tomorrow. I will be spending the night in front of the TV.
 
Not that that really matters in the US with the electoral college deciding the final outcome (in many states they aren't forced to vote with the popular vote). So if I'm going to throw away my vote, I might as well get a good laugh out of it.
The electoral college has only differed from the popular vote three times in US history and no dissenting votes have ever been enough to alter an outcome. The electoral college is divided based on congressional seats, so you are represented in the electoral system just as you are in Congress. If the electoral college is unfair or a bad system then so is Congress.

That said, we are big enough now not to need an electoral college. In fact, the thing it was designed to prevent, groups of majorities voting away minority rights, is using the electoral college against it by having special interest groups like MoveOn or the Tea Party focusing all their efforts on swing states. You just need to convince a majority in Ohio to win. Without an Electoral College they would have to convince a majority across the whole country, tens of millions.

Anyway, I think it is time to end the system, as it is no longer necessary and was designed with a small country in mind, but it has yet to create a trend of problems.

I am pleasantly excited for tomorrow. I will be spending the night in front of the TV.
I'm on the easy coast and I always go to bed before its final. The last votes are cast at 9:00 and counting isn't concluded for a couple more hours big anything is real close it can be very late before I know anything. And listening to boring pundits discuss useless exit poling and calling outcomes with 3% of the vote tallied kills me. I vote and then check to see if an outcome is determined just before I go to bed. If not, I find out when I wake up. Either way, my reaction will be the same.




Here is an interesting video where a guy confronts both sides' supporters with the philosophical gunpoint metaphor for political policy.
 
Someone said 3rd parties dont have the power to win. I hear this so often from people who would vote for a 3rd party but dont for that reason. If everyone who truly felt one.of.the "other" guys was the right choice voted.for that candidate, maybe they would have the power to crumble the 2 party system. People are ( in my experience) are to scared to vote against the masses so they pick the lesser of the two evils.

Vote and vote with your head. Dont just vote for one of the major candidates because the guy you want in "doesnt stand a chance". You are part of the reason that your guy doeant stand a chance.

Dont waste your vote by not voting.
 
Hello, ignorant Brit here.
Are there any other parties that run for power, and if so, why don't they ever get any coverage, at least internationally. Here, we get many party political broadcasts from lots of different parties, and people from more than just the top 3 elected in some places.
 
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