Presidential Election: 2012

[Famine]

Are there any other parties that run for power

Yep.

and if so, why don't they ever get any coverage, at least internationally.

Obama's spent $1bn on this election campaign - joining himself as the joint-highest election spend in history (and again ahead of both Bush and Kerry campaigns from 2004 put together). Romney's spent $800m - putting himself third.

The likely third place finisher, Gary Johnson and the Libertarian party, have spent $2.2m.

They have so little profile even in the USA that it's little surprise they've got no international coverage.

 

[Gazumagi]

Ultimately it comes down to one restricts freedom and the other does not. The question is whether we need government interference in our lives. There is a minimum requirement to protect liberties, but when you go beyond that government begins to go from protecting liberties to harming them. Government can't give without taking. That point can't be argued. The moment it begins to give something that isn't protecting liberty then justice had to be violated.

Even the most altruistic government harms freedom by its very nature. If you (not you specifucally) want to sacrifice some liberty for a want or need it is unjust to get it by making that same sacrifice for everyone.

It is not that government can't be a good thing. It can. But it is power and force. It must be tempered and contained like any power. Letting the US government go beyond the confines of the Constitution is no less dangerous than allowing a nuclear reactor's energy go beyond it's containment. We have seen that here since 9/11. A government that protected its people and had strict rules in criminal accusations was allowed room to hunt terrorists. It escaped containment. At first it seemed a palatable phone tapping to look for homegrown terrorists. But now just being kin to to someone suspected of terrorism vs Ngen you killed, and drones will be used to se everything we do.

Even when it is not a full fledged tyranny it becomes oppressive.

No, it comes down to the fact that to protect the liberties of those that live below or near the poverty line, the rich have to give up slightly more money then they would like. Rats.

Sure, small government lets you keep everything you earn. Fortunate for those that are heads of companies, unfortunate for those that have to do manual labor, because they don't have anyone to stop the rich people from screwing them over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YedDU88ieg

The gilded age and both depressions didn't come about from having too much government-and they didn't get fixed from having less government either.

If you only want a government for army and police, just get rid of the government all together and pool money to hire independent contractors-problem solved!

oh, and just for fun: http://www.votevotevote.net/

 

[Famine]

No, it comes down to the fact that to protect the liberties of those that live below or near the poverty line, the rich have to give up slightly more money then they would like.

How does taking money off anyone protect the liberties of anyone?

oh, and just for fun: http://www.votevotevote.net/

Don't see anyone I'd vote for in there.

 

[Signal52]

The likely third place finisher, Gary Johnson and the Libertarian party, have spent $2.2m.

They have so little profile even in the USA that it's little surprise they've got no international coverage.

It really is sad.

 

[Zenith]

Rats.

oh, and just for fun: http://www.votevotevote.net/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YedDU88ieg

You obviously chose your side based on some personal vendetta against "rich people" and surfed the internet to find a know-nothing poll and tripe-spewing talk show host to make you feel better about your decision.

We've already established that most foreigners know close to nothing about the actual policies of the current administration.

Sure, small government lets you keep everything you earn. Fortunate for those that are heads of companies, unfortunate for those that have to do manual labor, because they don't have anyone to stop the rich people from screwing them over.

The gilded age and both depressions didn't come about from having too much government-and they didn't get fixed from having less government either

Both misinformed statements. Did you even read Foolkiller's post?

 

[FoolKiller]

No, it comes down to the fact that to protect the liberties of those that live below or near the poverty line, the rich have to give up slightly more money then they would like. Rats.

I'm going to guess that you didn't watch the video I posted earlier today.

The rich have to give up more at gunpoint. It is done by force. Do you support a poor man robbing a rich man because he needs to feed his family?

Force is force is force. Liberty does not come at the cost of others. That is no form of liberty. It is theft.

Sure, small government lets you keep everything you earn. Fortunate for those that are heads of companies, unfortunate for those that have to do manual labor, because they don't have anyone to stop the rich people from screwing them over.

I would love to know how the rich screw people over because it hasn't been done to me. But then I pay attention and work to educate myself.

And what about everything I earn? I have a home, two cars, a child, a big screen TV, all three video game systems, two iPhones, an iPad, a laptop, a desktop, and my daughter wants for nothing. Both my parents were the children of farmers, my father was a manual labor factory worker, my mother was a secretary, I paid my way through college, as did my brother. I worked my way into management positions from entry level. All this with a severe heart condition that requires me to now be waiting for a heart transplant. And I have never taken a penny from government to help with my healthcare.

But about 28% of my paycheck goes to taxes. Who is stealing from me, because it sure as hell isn't rich businessmen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YedDU88ieg

Oh look, a rich liar making fun of two rich liars in order to defend a rich liar!

Here is the information that Bill Maher is hiding: Obama grew up in Hawaii, where housing prices are ridiculously high. Romney and Ryan grew up in the Midwest, where housing is relatively cheap. I've been to Hawaii. A one bedroom apartment cost as much as a two-story home on 5 acres in Kentucky. Obama had a one-bedroom house with land? I met people in Hawaii who slept on the beach while working two jobs. A home with a yard like that in Hawaii is likely in the $200,000 range. I can't find one-room house prices in Hawaii but looking at house ads shows a two bedroom at $695,000, a one bedroom condo $309,000, and a studio apartment is $1400 a month in Hawaii.

Obama was not poor.

But hey, believe everything you see on TV. We all know the difference between Bill Maher and Bill O'Reilly is the truth, right?

The gilded age and both depressions didn't come about from having too much government-and they didn't get fixed from having less government either.

Noble prize winning economists would disagree with you.

If you only want a government for army and police, just get rid of the government all together and pool money to hire independent contractors-problem solved!

Who said anything about anarchy? You quoted me saying government can be good and has a purpose. Leave hyperbole to the liars politicians.

oh, and just for fun: http://www.votevotevote.net/

How cute. Let's play that game with every country. There is nothing like ignorant, uninformed opinions to just add to the negativity of elections and make me lose even more hope in humanity.

By the way, why is that poll missing three candidates that are on my ballot?

Oh yeah, because they are uninformed and ignorant and have no gorram clue what they are talking about.

 

[Joel]

I don't really get the relevance of the BBC poll or that "votevotevote" site. The media is disgustingly biased towards Obamney within the US, let alone the media outside the US. I'm Canadian. Not many people in the US know about Gary Johnson, or understand his policies. I have not met a single person in my daily life in Canada who knows anything about Johnson or his plan (or that other parties even exist outside the Republicrats). Canadians think that Obama is working on socialized health care in the US (and have no idea about what Obamacare actually entails), they have no idea about any of the drone strikes (or how Obama has ordered 6X as many in 4 years as Bush did in 8), don't believe me when I say he has executed citizens without due process, and then ask me "but how could you support Romney!"

 

[Joey D]

I would love to know how the rich screw people over because it hasn't been done to me.

The rich run the government (through whatever party), the government screws people over. You've been screwed by rich people, we all have, even fellow rich people.

I don't really get the relevance of the BBC poll or that "votevotevote" site. The media is disgustingly biased towards Obamney within the US, let alone the media outside the US. I'm Canadian. Not many people in the US know about Gary Johnson, or understand his policies. I have not met a single person in my daily life in Canada who knows anything about Johnson or his plan (or that other parties even exist outside the Republicrats). Canadians think that Obama is working on socialized health care in the US (and have no idea about what Obamacare actually entails), they have no idea about any of the drone strikes (or how Obama has ordered 6X as many in 4 years as Bush did in 8), don't believe me when I say he has executed citizens without due process, and then ask me "but how could you support Romney!"

You probably haven't met any Canadians that know about Gary Johnson because why would they honestly care? They're probably concerned about your own government, not some third party in the US that doesn't stand a chance in hell of even getting 1% of the vote.

Also the media is biased towards Romney and Obama because they are the two main candidates we have in the election. They are going to cover what people want to watch because they are running a business, which is to sell news (or rather ads on a news channel).

I'm not even sure why you are remotely shocked by these facts?

 

[FoolKiller]

The rich run the government (through whatever party), the government screws people over. You've been screwed by rich people, we all have, even fellow rich people.

But that is not what he is talking about. He is talking about the same rich getting richer concepts that Obama spouts. Sure, he believes that Republicans want to help them, but he clearly seems to believe it is class warfare out there and that Romney and Obama back different sides.

Keep in mind that he believes a small government takes from no one and allows the poor to be stolen from by the rich.

 

[Joel]

You probably haven't met any Canadians that know about Gary Johnson because why would they honestly care? They're probably concerned about your own government, not some third party in the US that doesn't stand a chance in hell of even getting 1% of the vote.

Also the media is biased towards Romney and Obama because they are the two main candidates we have in the election. They are going to cover what people want to watch because they are running a business, which is to sell news (or rather ads on a news channel).

I'm not even sure why you are remotely shocked by these facts?

I'm not shocked so much as frustrated. You'd be surprised at how much attention the US election gets here. I'd argue that a lot people are almost more interested in US politics than Canadian politics (especially because we won't have another federal election until 2015). There's a very strong pro-Obama sentiment, and I just find it frustrating that the myth that he is somehow this peaceful guy and less violent than Bush gets perpetuated, and if I say anything other than "Obama is the greatest ever" then I get lambasted for being a "Romney supporter", even though that's the furthest thing from the truth. In recent weeks I've just stopped talking about it in real life.

I get the point about needing to sell TV ads, but I also think it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Obama and Romney are the only ones on the news because they're the only ones on the news (and the rich running government you alluded to earlier would like to keep it that way). I would say I probably care too much about an election that isn't in my country and that I won't be able to vote for. I guess I care because I strongly support Johnson as a candidate, and that I would someday like to live in a more libertarian country, and right now the US is the best chance of getting somewhere close to that. And there's also that they're Canada's #1 trading partner, and the path the status quo has the US on is rather scary.

 

[Joey D]

I'm not shocked so much as frustrated. You'd be surprised at how much attention the US election gets here. I'd argue that a lot people are almost more interested in US politics than Canadian politics (especially because we won't have another federal election until 2015). There's a very strong pro-Obama sentiment, and I just find it frustrating that the myth that he is somehow this peaceful guy and less violent than Bush gets perpetuated, and if I say anything other than "Obama is the greatest ever" then I get lambasted for being a "Romney supporter", even though that's the furthest thing from the truth. In recent weeks I've just stopped talking about it in real life.

I get the point about needing to sell TV ads, but I also think it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Obama and Romney are the only ones on the news because they're the only ones on the news (and the rich running government you alluded to earlier would like to keep it that way). I would say I probably care too much about an election that isn't in my country and that I won't be able to vote for. I guess I care because I strongly support Johnson as a candidate, and that I would someday like to live in a more libertarian country, and right now the US is the best chance of getting somewhere close to that. And there's also that they're Canada's #1 trading partner, and the path the status quo has the US on is rather scary.

The only real reason I've heard from non-Americans who support Obama is that he represents a party that isn't completely socially backwards. The Democrats have many short comings but they at least tend to favor things that are socially modern like gay marriage, women's right to choose, pulling back the church out of things, and so on. Other than that the only other thing I've heard non-Americans talk about with our president is the wars/conflicts/bombing runs we are involved in. From what I can tell the rest of the world sees Bush as the one who started all issues in the Middle East (he was), but seem to skip over the part where Obama continued it.

With regards to the TV, it's just that both Obama and Romney have a ton of money and are able to buy ads in the media. The media outlets don't care about the issues or who's signing the cheques, they are just interested in the income. Third parties don't have the money to become relevant in the US, and I doubt they will for a long time. Unless someone like Bill Gates steps up and supports a third party by giving them hundreds of millions of dollars I doubt you'll ever see a viable third part candidate.

===

Among my southern Canadian friends in Windsor, it seems the biggest US election thing affecting them right now is Michigan's Prop 6 which could allow some billionaire to stop a bridge from being built by the Canadians because he wants to build it himself and expand his transportation monopoly. But if some how the prop gets passed the Canadians will just apologize they can't build the bridge and thed all go get super drunk on Blue, eat a ton of Tim Horton's and watch a good old hockey game.

 

[Joel]

Well, that's all assuming the NHL lockout ends soon! Good point about social policy however, I didn't really think about it from that angle. Gay marriage being legal and a complete non-issue is something I think I take for granted about Canada. I often forget how much opposition to it there is in the US and how it's illegal in 40+ states.

 

[oopssorryy]

With regards to the TV, it's just that both Obama and Romney have a ton of money and are able to buy ads in the media. The media outlets don't care about the issues or who's signing the cheques, they are just interested in the income. Third parties don't have the money to become relevant in the US, and I doubt they will for a long time. Unless someone like Bill Gates steps up and supports a third party by giving them hundreds of millions of dollars I doubt you'll ever see a viable third part candidate.

This. With Obama and Romney able to put up nearly 2 billion dollars fort there ads, a third party isn't able to get a solid word in. In my group of friends there are only 7 who know about Gary, one of them is a Democratic supporter who will not cross party lines, another its the same way for Romney. So including me I know 5 people total who would concider voting for him. With numbers like this he had no chance. Which is why I'm voting Supreme. If my vote doesn't mayer I might as well get a good laugh out of it.

 

[Omnis]

No, it comes down to the fact that to protect the liberties of those that live below or near the poverty line, the rich have to give up slightly more money then they would like.

If you only want a government for army and police, just get rid of the government all together and pool money to hire independent contractors-problem solved!

 

[Joel]

Hans-Hermann Hoppe

Thank god for reverse image search.


EDIT: Romney just admitted he's a Patriots fan. Obama has my support 110%.

 

[FoolKiller]

EDIT: Romney just admitted he's a Patriots fan. Obama has my support 110%.

That's about as shocking as me saying I'm a University of Kentucky fan. The guy was governor of Massachusetts. The Patriots are in Boston, Massachusetts.

 

[JacksHerer]

well having read Romeys connection to the voting software, I was tempted to put some money on him winning...

 

[Bram Turismo]

This. With Obama and Romney able to put up nearly 2 billion dollars fort there ads, a third party isn't able to get a solid word in. In my group of friends there are only 7 who know about Gary, one of them is a Democratic supporter who will not cross party lines, another its the same way for Romney. So including me I know 5 people total who would concider voting for him. With numbers like this he had no chance. Which is why I'm voting Supreme. If my vote doesn't mayer I might as well get a good laugh out of it.

Do they also have control over what is shown outside of the US?

I mean, whenever I'm watching the news over here, they only talk about Obama and Romney. The other day my mother actually asked me how it happened that only those two persons were running for President. So it is clear people outside of the US don't even know there are other candidates unless they've been following the elections in detail.

 

[Famine]

Do they also have control over what is shown outside of the US?

I mean, whenever I'm watching the news over here, they only talk about Obama and Romney. The other day my mother actually asked me how it happened that only those two persons were running for President. So it is clear people outside of the US don't even know there are other candidates unless they've been following the elections in detail.

The two market leaders spend nearly a thousand times as much in promotion as the third place product. Do you know what the third best-selling cola drink in the USA is?

Same thing here.

 

[Adamgp]

Just cast my vote on my way to work.

 

[Joel]

That's about as shocking as me saying I'm a University of Kentucky fan. The guy was governor of Massachusetts. The Patriots are in Boston, Massachusetts.

I know all of that .

It's the same as Obama being a "Bears fan".

 

[Pagey279]

Forgive me, but when will we actually find out the result of the election?

 

[Adamgp]

Forgive me, but when will we actually find out the result of the election?

Results start coming in in about 10 hours.

If it's a landslide either way, we'll know tonight. If it's close like the 2000 election, who knows.

 

[Omnis]

The two market leaders spend nearly a thousand times as much in promotion as the third place product. Do you know what the third best-selling cola drink in the USA is?

Same thing here.

👍 As another example, Stone beers are infinitely better than Anheuser-Bush or MillerCoors. Yet AB has 50% market share and MC has 30%.

http://[domain blocked due to malware]/instances/400x/19813799.jpg

What's popular is not always what's best.

It's not looking good for Romney on intrade. Wonder what the polls say.

 

[JediRage]

To be sure, having too many candidates is also not a very good situation because it ends in a deadlocked House/Senate/Parliament and the government/person leading the nation has no real power to affect any change. The situation is compounded further when a coalition of more than 2 or 3 parties is formed to form a government because then you have to listen to every little petty issue that may or may not be representative of that party's constituency. Corruption becomes rife in such an atmosphere. This in turn leads to more divisive policies that pits parts of the population against each other. An example of this is the governance of the largest democracy in the world which is doubly hilarious because it has been functioning as a dynastic monarchy since it became a republic.

The problem with limited choice arises when the main choices are too similar to each other or on the (extreme) opposite ends of the political spectrum.

I know all of that .

It's the same as Obama being a "Bears fan".

You haven't mentioned drone strikes for a few posts now. Come on, you can do better than that on voting day, right? Don't you want to influence voting across your border?

 

[Pagey279]

Results start coming in in about 10 hours.

If it's a landslide either way, we'll know tonight. If it's close like the 2000 election, who knows.

Okay thanks 👍

 

[Joel]

You haven't mentioned drone strikes for a few posts now. Come on, you can do better than that on voting day, right? Don't you want to influence voting across your border?

Vote Romney because 4 years of Romney jokes from the late night show hosts will be hilarious.

 

[Joey D]

So I just got back from voting and I was number 485 and I stood in line over 30 mins. I've never been that high of a number and waited that long before. My polling place has never been that busy.

 

[TheCracker]

So I just got back from voting and I was number 485 and I stood in line over 30 mins. I've never been that high of a number and waited that long before. My polling place has never been that busy.

Are you in a potential battle ground or does the voting traditionally pull in one direction?

 

[Blitz24]

I voted. Was #107 at my polling place.