Presidential Election: 2012

  • Thread starter Omnis
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Sources, Famine, sources! :lol:

Indeed, it appears Rick Perry will drop out sometime today. It's not yet known if he will endorse another candidate, but I'm assuming it will either be Romney or...*gasp*...Paul. They're both from Texas.

And like I mentioned earlier, ABC is going to drop a bomb with the interview of Newt's ex-wife later tonight. I'll bring the popcorn!
 
In the States we let Matt Drudge do the digging for us. He's pretty good at it.

As for the Iowa caucuses, there is more news. Ugh. As it turns out, the vote tallies from 8 precincts are missing and cannot be certified. Therefore, officially, Rick Santorum actually won, not Romney. I told you guys Iowa would be a mess because it always is. What a wonderful state!
 
I was going to say that it's the journalistic equivalent of retweeting, but then I remembered that our "news" providers often report on Tweets anyway.
 
Great...only two primaries in and we're down to three candidates. At least we got to florida last time. Santorum may as well get out now. I like him but he has no chance. Especially with his abortion stance being front and center.

Hello GOP nominee romney.
 
I have to ask this seriously, and I really don't mean to be a jerk here, but What exactly is it that makes you say you like him? I don't see whatever it is that makes people follow him and so far no one I have run into has actually endorsed the guy. :lol: So Why?
 
As I watch this ridiculous process unfolding one more time, I've got to ask you guys (Americans), why you don't question whether there is something seriously wrong with your electoral system? I used to think that the US system was better than parliamentary democracy because at least it had a rational basis. In practice, it actually seems more absurd than the process in the parliamentary democracies. Why exactly do the voters of IA, NH & SC get to decide (to a large degree) who the GOP nominee is going to be?

Ron Paul will not (of course) win the GOP nomination. How can he in a party in which a majority is diametrically opposed to the kind of civil liberties & foreign policy positions that Paul espouses? Where does that leave the libertarians within the Republican party? How do you reconcile the "social conservatives" with the "fiscal conservatives"? Shouldn't there be a third (or more) party? How would that work in practice in the US?

In Canada, as in the UK, there has been a lot of talk over the years about proportional representation. What I've noticed in Canada, is that in spite of the lack of "logic" to the present system, in practice, the results seem generally to represent some kind of reasonable consensus as to where the country should go & in spite of the potential for dictatorial control by the prime minister, in practice, the PM is forced to govern with the consensus in mind.

In the US there seems to be a complete impasse between the opposing views of what the US should be, an impasse that is actually materially damaging the social & economic life of the country.
 
The primary process is basically decided by the Republican Party. Other parties have different confirmation/nomination selections. In fact, no primary is really needed - anyone can run for president (as long as you were born in the US and meet the other criteria). The Party does what it does because it believes that will produce the candidate... or perhaps more accurately... the party does what it does because at one point they believed that would produce the best candidate and then subsequently they became too scared to change the process.

Regardless, this isn't something that's really part of our government (note that Obama doesn't have to compete for the democratic nomination). If we don't like it, we're supposed to not vote for that party's nominee.
 
There was a time when Republican primaries were less like a national game of Candy Land and more like an actual serious, important process. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
 
There was a time when Republican primaries were less like a national game of Candy Land and more like an actual serious, important process. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

At a time when Dukakis and Mondale destroyed the 1980s for the Democrats?
 
I was thinking more like the late 1700s/early 1800s, but whatever.



...



I'm already more in favor of this debate's format than that of earlier ones. Of course, it's easier to allow candidates more time to elaborate when there are fewer of them, but still. This format is much more open and honest.
 
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GOP debates are on.
 
That was probably the best debate for everyone except Romney, in my opinion. I think Paul had an advantage since no one had any real accusations against him. All the while, Romney, Gingrich, and Santorum were duking it out.
 
There was a time when Republican primaries were less like a national game of Candy Land and more like an actual serious, important process. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

I was thinking more like the late 1700s/early 1800s, but whatever.

Have you actually read about this, because it seems like the nominating process in the US, which was constantly changing throughout the 19th century was, like politicking in most countries at that time, an almighty mess of corruption? I'm afraid that the illusion that "things were better in the old days" is just that: an illusion. The difference is, the scale of things, the number of people effected & what is a stake, is vastly greater now than it was 150 - 200 years ago.
 
I was going to say that it's the journalistic equivalent of retweeting,
Have you met the Associated Press? Members in an association pay dues/fees and then whenever one of them has a report of national significance it gets passed around to everyone. Drudge is just being more thorough, as he has found a way to dance around the associations and fees so that he can grab any story from anywhere.

Honestly, Drudge can be replaced by setting up Google Reader properly.

but then I remembered that our "news" providers often report on Tweets anyway.
This has been the big sports news in the US today.

Aaaand, back on topic.

As I watch this ridiculous process unfolding one more time, I've got to ask you guys (Americans), why you don't question whether there is something seriously wrong with your electoral system?
I have for a long time. I understand the reasoning behind the electoral college, and when there used to be some semblance of state sovereignty it made sense. But if we are going to give the federal government all power to do whatever and pretend like what is good in LA works in the bayou of Louisiana, then it may as well be a popular vote.

Or did you not mean the electoral college?

Why exactly do the voters of IA, NH & SC get to decide (to a large degree) who the GOP nominee is going to be?
They don't. But there is supposedly a historical pattern of these states picking what ultimately becomes the candidate of the challenging party (not just the GOP). That said, the bigger problem is with the media. They need to play up these early caucuses and primaries for ratings. They said Iowa would determine the nominee. Then it was on to New Hampshire who, for the last X elections predicted the nominee. And then after New Hampshire I actually heard one guy say, "Iowa and New Hampshire may have a historical record of choosing nominees, but South Carolina is where the decision is really made." It is all just a media show to justify a 24 hours news cycle.

Ron Paul will not (of course) win the GOP nomination. How can he in a party in which a majority is diametrically opposed to the kind of civil liberties & foreign policy positions that Paul espouses? Where does that leave the libertarians within the Republican party? How do you reconcile the "social conservatives" with the "fiscal conservatives"? Shouldn't there be a third (or more) party? How would that work in practice in the US?
Considering the two main parties ultimately achieve the same goal (larger government, more debt) many have argued that a third party would help. But there are many parties, only two are in power and thus control how things go down at election time, and the media is complacent in this to a degree by hosting debates without the other party candidates or covering their campaigns.

In the US there seems to be a complete impasse between the opposing views of what the US should be, an impasse that is actually materially damaging the social & economic life of the country.
It is possible that we are witnessing an ideological revolution that will end in a major adjustment to how the US government works. Or it is possible that Rome is burning. Or, like many times before, we have had a trend of progressive changes that finally hit a point where a large number of people put their foot down and begin fighting (Federalists, Civil war, The New Deal, Prohibition, Civil Rights movement, Hippies, etc). If it is the last one then we will eventually recover, and it will just be another footnote in history with the occasional person who pops up and thinks that the losing side didn't have a bad idea.
 
This is rather funny. The AP publishes a story about Ron Paul's extravagance in his airline travels, and the host of this MSNBC show is eager to find inconsistencies in his fiscally responsible position. But he admits that his research team found...nothing. :lol:

 
I have to ask this seriously, and I really don't mean to be a jerk here, but What exactly is it that makes you say you like him? I don't see whatever it is that makes people follow him and so far no one I have run into has actually endorsed the guy. :lol: So Why?

You must have not caught the Forth Mix Santorum's catchy slogan, "Restoring family values in America"

It's so amazing right:dopey:

This is rather funny. The AP publishes a story about Ron Paul's extravagance in his airline travels, and the host of this MSNBC show is eager to find inconsistencies in his fiscally responsible position. But he admits that his research team found...nothing. :lol:



Well as much as I dislike Laurence and his show, I'm glad they spoke the truth on this. Sad really but it goes to show (or possibly could be said) that Paul is in a up hill battle with media.
 
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OH I missed the remixed version of that song and dance number... That must be it! :lol: Sigh.

That guy.
I'm telling you, he is actually Will Arnett with a wig. It's all a sick joke and he's laughing at us.

Gingrich's life however is unfolding like a bad daytime soap. I'm looking forward to the ensuing poo storm from the x-tian right and how they will dismiss his 'past'. 👎 Hopefully they will ride him out of town like the mule that he is.

Also, That video was hilarious to watch. I 'm going to have to share that with some people. I love how they really dig into the most miniscule of details and still have don't have anything to show for it. Ron or Bust!

Edit: Here's a tasty tid bit about newt that I just now saw from a right site: FBI Sting on Newt called off by DC at last moment.
What's next I wonder?
 
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OH I missed the remixed version of that song and dance number... That must be it! :lol: Sigh.

That guy.
I'm telling you, he is actually Will Arnett with a wig. It's all a sick joke and he's laughing at us.

Gingrich's life however is unfolding like a bad daytime soap. I'm looking forward to the ensuing poo storm from the x-tian right and how they will dismiss his 'past'. 👎 Hopefully they will ride him out of town like the mule that he is.

Also, That video was hilarious to watch. I 'm going to have to share that with some people. I love how they really dig into the most miniscule of details and still have don't have anything to show for it. Ron or Bust!

It was funny to watch Santorum defend his friend, with the use of christian faith, and how he should be forgiven and blah blah blah. He seemed to have a difficult time figuring out what to say for Newt.

As I watch this ridiculous process unfolding one more time, I've got to ask you guys (Americans), why you don't question whether there is something seriously wrong with your electoral system? I used to think that the US system was better than parliamentary democracy because at least it had a rational basis. In practice, it actually seems more absurd than the process in the parliamentary democracies. Why exactly do the voters of IA, NH & SC get to decide (to a large degree) who the GOP nominee is going to be?

Who says we don't question it? Better yet who says we haven't been question it for some time? You assume that we haven't and I'm not sure if you simply have neglected the fact that this collective group you talk to here is not the main view of Americans. If you came across the border for 20 minutes and asked as many people as possible what the Electoral College was I bet many would look at you and wonder if it was an Ivy League School. Also the system hasn't had a smooth determining process for a long time, which makes me wonder what you heard or were taught that suggested otherwise.

Ron Paul will not (of course) win the GOP nomination. How can he in a party in which a majority is diametrically opposed to the kind of civil liberties & foreign policy positions that Paul espouses? Where does that leave the libertarians within the Republican party? How do you reconcile the "social conservatives" with the "fiscal conservatives"? Shouldn't there be a third (or more) party? How would that work in practice in the US?

This has been said by myself and others through the thread over and over, it wouldn't work and wouldn't be allowed to work because the two party system doesn't want it. The system uses power and money as you can see from the super pacs of Romney (est. $700mil+) and Obama (est. $1Bil). If the GOP were smart as I told you already, they'd elect Paul due to being able to collect votes and put them in power as well as uproot Obama from a second term. However, the GOP doesn't merely want a win due to a likable candidate, but one that can get votes and win using their hard line approach.

As others have also said, the GOP primaries are controlled by the RNC and what they fundamentally fail to realize is the places that decided their GOP candidate is not all of the U.S. This is a problem because come November this year of the election night the GOP will be facing many other groups that did not vote in their primary, groups that are assumed or projected to be in line with Paul due to him not being a hard-line conservative/republican.


In the US there seems to be a complete impasse between the opposing views of what the US should be, an impasse that is actually materially damaging the social & economic life of the country.

Maybe because it isn't important to those who are in charge.
 
OK, there are a lot of points here. I'm not really talking about the electoral college (and just for the record: I have lived & worked in the US - I understand the system well & have many friends & business colleagues in the US). Yes, there are people here questioning the functioning of the system, but nobody seems to questioning the system itself.

I keep hearing how "perfect" the Constitution is, but the idea that the provisions of an 18th century constitution should be "perfectly" adequate for governing a modern nation of over 300 million seems bizarre to me, & I suspect to many non-Americans. This idea finds its most extreme expression in the arguments of "Originalists" like Scalia & as seen in the Citizens United ruling, effectively dooms the US to more of the same unresponsive government & the same corporatist agenda.

Although Ron Paul frequently cites the Constitution as the authority for his positions, this is not a convincing argument to me as a non-American. Where what Paul says makes sense, I support it & where it doesn't, I don't. Why should the justification for policy in 2011 be dependent on what a handful of white men thought (with, incidentally, considerable disagreement) in 1787 - a period that pre-dated the internet, the computer, the TV, the radio, the airplane, the car, the telegraph, the railway etc. etc. - in fact pre-dates the entire industrial revolution?

In my experience, the US is the only western country that continues to promote the cult of "Exceptionalism". Of course other countries - the empires of their day - cultivated a similar inflated idea of self-worth. But throughout Europe, after two catastrophic world wars, a more realistic self-image gradually emerged & those countries are the better for it. In the US, "Exceptionalism" is like mother's milk - Left & Right, Liberal & Conservative & Libertarian - all are still sucking on it (although I give Ron Paul great credit for adopting a more modest & realistic outlook in this regard). This makes it impossible for most Americans to look to & learn from the experience of other countries in tackling social, economic or political problems. Why bother learning anything from others if you consider yourself "exceptional"?!

So, all the arguments presented here strike me a circular. Did you really think Ron Paul would be nominated? If he were, would he win the Presidency? If he did, do you really think he would be able to bring about significant change? Personally, I believe if Paul were elected & did make the changes he talks about, it would be a catastrophe for the US (& probably the rest of the world). But it's not going to happen. Even if he were elected, resistance within the system would ensure that there would be no more "change" than there has been under Obama. I do believe, however, that Ron Paul has a legitimate point of view, that it deserves to be heard, & that his ideas ought to have some influence on US politics.
 
I just don't know how you can describe all of that which you want and then say Ron Paul is a terrible candidate. I sense dissonance there. We don't have to argue though since I know it will be fruitless.
Ron Paul is big on pre-WWII policy. Isolationism, or at least non-interventionalism is admirable. Talking about Thomas Jefferson's warning about the evils of the banking class is admirable. Letting states decide more issues than the Feds is admirable. Once he starts talking about returning to the gold standard, anyone who passed their Economics 101 class (anyone with half a brain) realizes this guy is completely out of touch with reality.

Saying Ron Paul is the best candidate out of the current republican crop is like saying a mouse is the most sentient being in a basket of assorted vegetables.

And to top it off, he's all about individualism and state rights and then drop s the big bomb for the internet-surfing, neckbeard, geek-culture, sensible, atheist crowd who love him so: he doesn't believe in the separation of church and state.

Dealbreaker, Mr. Kookie Paul.

The Constitution was drawn up before the Bill of Rights, railways, the airplane, womens' suffrage, the systematic elimination of an ethnicity, the atomic bomb and ICBM, the birth control pill, landing on the moon, et al. Give me a ****ing break about this strict adherence to the original document BS. The framers of the Constitution knew full well that they had no way of anticipating what would happen in the hundreds of years to come, and that is why the living Constitution and the jurisprudence of the Supreme Court is what we have to wrestle with.
 
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OK, there are a lot of points here. I'm not really talking about the electoral college (and just for the record: I have lived & worked in the US - I understand the system well & have many friends & business colleagues in the US). Yes, there are people here questioning the functioning of the system, but nobody seems to questioning the system itself.

No one is saying you don't understand the system or can somewhat comprehend it from an outside prospective. Once again if you read through the thread as I've suggest many of times me and other question thee system and not just it's functionality. Better yet, what are you not seeing or haven't read that makes you suggest we're not fundamentally questioning what we live under as Americans, your poetic string of words is nice but vague.

I keep hearing how "perfect" the Constitution is, but the idea that the provisions of an 18th century constitution should be "perfectly" adequate for governing a modern nation of over 300 million seems bizarre to me, & I suspect to many non-Americans. This idea finds its most extreme expression in the arguments of "Originalists" like Scalia & as seen in the Citizens United ruling, effectively dooms the US to more of the same unresponsive government & the same corporatist agenda.

You keep hearing a limited sumation of how perfect it is not all of us agree it is 100% but close to it. What you fail to mention in this summary here is that the founding article is the basis and/or building blocks, what laws come after have a basis with in those building blocks, like say for instance the NDAA or Patriot Act, two laws that are used to combat a suppose modern day threat but could be argued infringe upon the basic ideas of the first amendment.

Although Ron Paul frequently cites the Constitution as the authority for his positions, this is not a convincing argument to me as a non-American. Where what Paul says makes sense, I support it & where it doesn't, I don't. Why should the justification for policy in 2011 be dependent on what a handful of white men thought (with, incidentally, considerable disagreement) in 1787 - a period that pre-dated the internet, the computer, the TV, the radio, the airplane, the car, the telegraph, the railway etc. etc. - in fact pre-dates the entire industrial revolution?

What does owning a car, TV or the era of the industrial revolution have to do with fundamental rights of the constitution? I explained already how the Constitution is meant to work in its simplest form. All I can say is you talk about this system and how we should question it and go after it (sort of), you come off a bit crass as if you know what the system is. Yet you ask questions like why we would gullibly think that the Constitution would work in this modern era. Yet what you fail to do is put two and two together; what if the system you say we don't question is the very essences for why the constitution is in shambles, if the system is already blatantly corrupt what makes you think they'd follow the fundamental ideals or rights of society and the people they "supposedly work" for. Also why would our Constitution have to be a convincing argument to you, the ideas he sites when talking about it are those limited to the U.S. obviously, I would understand foreign policy and what not. It makes sense to many Americans as to why it is a convincing argument because that is the documentation that society runs by or is suppose to. It's claimed to be a living document as well thus to be the basis for the changing times.

In my experience, the US is the only western country that continues to promote the cult of "Exceptionalism". Of course other countries - the empires of their day - cultivated a similar inflated idea of self-worth. But throughout Europe, after two catastrophic world wars, a more realistic self-image gradually emerged & those countries are the better for it. In the US, "Exceptionalism" is like mother's milk - Left & Right, Liberal & Conservative & Libertarian - all are still sucking on it (although I give Ron Paul great credit for adopting a more modest & realistic outlook in this regard). This makes it impossible for most Americans to look to & learn from the experience of other countries in tackling social, economic or political problems. Why bother learning anything from others if you consider yourself "exceptional"?!

I'd like to know your actual experiences with the U.S., at some point it'd be nice to get that perspective from you. Once again you seem to assume we all have this idea of self-worth, or we all have gone about shouting to the skies that America is number one and the best nation to ever come around. This leads me to ask for your experiences as I stated from the start. The ending is just funny and sad, because it seems that you still paint a picture that we all fall under that umbrella. Not sure why or how?

So, all the arguments presented here strike me a circular. Did you really think Ron Paul would be nominated? If he were, would he win the Presidency? If he did, do you really think he would be able to bring about significant change? Personally, I believe if Paul were elected & did make the changes he talks about, it would be a catastrophe for the US (& probably the rest of the world). But it's not going to happen. Even if he were elected, resistance within the system would ensure that there would be no more "change" than there has been under Obama. I do believe, however, that Ron Paul has a legitimate point of view, that it deserves to be heard, & that his ideas ought to have some influence on US politics.

Some of us do believe that, and maybe it's due to us wanting change in the system and fighting hard to change the system. You ask us how or why we don't question, but it seems to me you've missed the most obvious way we can try or have tried. Once again you talk in a fashion that borders insulting to us that do live in the states (at least to me) yet you pose no real ideas of change and have yet to really do so. Truth be told what has Obama done to enact change? We've all given some sort of documentation or video proof that shows the U.S. in the current states and many renditios before it has lied and will continue. However, I think that since the late 1800s onward there have been only one or two Presidents that set the ground work and warned us what to look out for.
 
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