Prophet Mohammed cartoons furore

[Duke]

I take it that they have insulted you with those banners?

You can't have your cake and eat it.

May I ask if anyone got arrested for those banners?

They may have insulted him, or they may have not. It's irrelevant. The point is that Famine isn't calling for all Muslims to be killed in violent and painful ways just because they've expressed their opinions.

Whereas the Muslim protestors have called for violence and death against those expressing their opinions.

 

[Carl.]

"Been there, done that", says Christianity. If Marx was right about something, it clearly was his opinion on religion.

I fear Duke might be right about what will ultimately happen to Islamists, if there's not a strong, clear and effective oppostion coming from moderate Muslims. To them a stupid cartoon is more of an insult to their "religion of peace" than murdering ****heads who blow themselves up in their name??

Wake up before it's too late.

 

[Mark T]

I used to live in Walthamstow which is in the East End of London. When I used to finish school there would be a very large gathering of Muslims handing out leaflets to all the Muslim pupils (which was around 95% of the school. I managed to read one of the leaflets which was being given out. In the leaflet it said "bringing the world to Islam at any cost".)Now I know that most Muslims are decent people but there is a significantly large number that are determined to create an Islamic state in every country. You may wonder what this has to do with the cartoons being published. Well. it gives them another form of propaganda to use against the Western civilisation.

I wish I could provide the leaflet for you, but unfortunately it's very hard to get hold of. Plus it's 3.30am in the morning & I have had one too many Hennessy's & Lemonade.

 

[niky]

"Been there, done that", says Christianity. If Marx was right about something, it clearly was his opinion on religion.

I fear Duke might be right about what will ultimately happen to Islamists, if there's not a strong, clear and effective oppostion coming from moderate Muslims. To them a stupid cartoon is more of an insult to their "religion of peace" than murdering ****heads who blow themselves up in their name??

Wake up before it's too late.

That, I agree with.

It's about time the rest of the Muslim world demonstrate against these protesters... otherwise there might not be a moderate platform for them to stand on for much longer.

@Famine: Fundamentalist: (n) 1. Psychotic individual who will kill or ridicule anyone who even remotely smells like they believe in a different God or theology (see terrorists, the Inquisition, Tom Cruise and Pat Robertson) 2. Take the "fun" out of life for everyone else.

With Judaism being the base of both Christianity and Islam, it's awfully easy to pull some old verse or another out of one's a$$ and use it to justify any action, whether you're Islamic or not.

About the rest of the Muslims. Now it seems they don't have time to come to grips with it anymore... they've got to do something about those damn idiots parading the evil side of Islam in front of the world... before it's too late.

 

[Touring Mars]

Reading the newspapers yesterday, it's hard not to be depressed by the whole situation or to be angry at the attitudes of some of the protesters. Some of the protesters in London were carrying banners praising the 'Fantastic Four', the 7/7 bombers who murdered 52 people (including my friend's girlfriend) - yet, people who attempted to take the banners down or away from the protesters were stopped by the police... they chanted 'UK, you must pray - 7/7 is on it's way' (quote from The Times newspaper), and were not arrested or even stopped from doing so - all the Police would say is that the protest went off peacefully - that is their No. 1 objective unfortunately, but how can chanting racial and religious bigotry and hatred be described as peaceful?

The only reason not to be totally sickened or depressed about this situation is to be thankful that we live in a country where you can express yourself freely, despite how warped your message is. It is little wonder that this sort fo protest is happening though, since the 'religious' leadership that these people listen to openly condones and actively encourages murder. Only when the people in positions of authority (including the assumed role of moral authority that all religions attempt to thrust upon the rest of us) stop making downright irresponsible comments will the rest follow....

 

[F1GTR]

I used to live in Walthamstow which is in the East End of London. When I used to finish school there would be a very large gathering of Muslims handing out leaflets to all the Muslim pupils (which was around 95% of the school. I managed to read one of the leaflets which was being given out. In the leaflet it said "bringing the world to Islam at any cost".)Now I know that most Muslims are decent people but there is a significantly large number that are determined to create an Islamic state in every country. You may wonder what this has to do with the cartoons being published. Well. it gives them another form of propaganda to use against the Western civilisation.

I wish I could provide the leaflet for you, but unfortunately it's very hard to get hold of. Plus it's 3.30am in the morning & I have had one too many Hennessy's & Lemonade.

Yep, it still happens...

 

[Poverty]

Reading the newspapers yesterday, it's hard not to be depressed by the whole situation or to be angry at the attitudes of some of the protesters. Some of the protesters in London were carrying banners praising the 'Fantastic Four', the 7/7 bombers who murdered 52 people (including my friend's girlfriend) - yet, people who attempted to take the banners down or away from the protesters were stopped by the police... they chanted 'UK, you must pray - 7/7 is on it's way' (quote from The Times newspaper), and were not arrested or even stopped from doing so - all the Police would say is that the protest went off peacefully - that is their No. 1 objective unfortunately, but how can chanting racial and religious bigotry and hatred be described as peaceful?

The only reason not to be totally sickened or depressed about this situation is to be thankful that we live in a country where you can express yourself freely, despite how warped your message is. It is little wonder that this sort fo protest is happening though, since the 'religious' leadership that these people listen to openly condones and actively encourages murder. Only when the people in positions of authority (including the assumed role of moral authority that all religions attempt to thrust upon the rest of us) stop making downright irresponsible comments will the rest follow....

Man its because of people like that that is making the national front gain in strength. Tony Blair needs to fix up and sort out some laws to stop people from doing that. Theyre giving all the other non whites in the UK a bad name.

 

[Touring Mars]

It's ironic that these protesters are using the very same right of free speech that they are protesting against in the first place!

Sadly, the far right will probably be having a field day with this too - but so long as intolerance and ignorance exists on both sides, there will always be something to argue about. Whether it is an Islamic preacher inciting a crowd in Gaza, or Nick Griffin preaching his message of hate to a bunch of neo-Nazi skinheads in a pub in South London, it is the notion of intolerance that should be challenged.

 

[code_kev]

It's ironic that these protesters are using the very same right of free speech that they are protesting against in the first place!

They don't understand irony.

These people (Islamic fundies) annoy me so much. All they practise is violence and hatred, they wait for any excuse to cause as much misery as possible to those who do not believe what they do. Someone says something they don't agree with, DEATH TO THE INFIDEL, BURN BURN. Oh noes, some comics. Who cares, get over it.

 

[niky]

It's difficult to stop a disaffected minority when they've got it in their minds to riot. These things are powderkegs just waiting to go off... wherever you find large numbers of young unemployed men of an identifiable minority/religious group/etcetera, the moment they see a halfway valid reason to go amok, they will. Just like in LA (Rodney King) and Paris (the recent riots)... in this case, it's Lebanese youths burning Embassies. With large, poor Muslim populations in many other countries, it might not be long before copycat riots take place.

 

[Carl.]

It's ironic that these protesters are using the very same right of free speech that they are protesting against in the first place!

See, that's where freedom of speech should have its limits. If iyou use to blatantly incite or endorse acts of violence of that kind, that should mean that you've forfeited that right. Otherwise that's ridiculous.

To draw a parallel, when some pressure was put on Washington for an airstrikes against radio stations in Rwanda, used to incite, and even organize the slaughters during the genocide, the excuse for not doing so was that it would be against freedom of speech. 👎 I guess there are fundamentalists for anything... (This isn't to blame USA, they didn't get much help in time, from anyone)

 

[Freddie]

Living in a targeted country, being a citizen of another, I kind of feel the need to voice some of my opinions on this.

First of all, Islam is at it's roots a peaceful religion, but like most other religions, has twisted sub-religions and cults that wants to kill anyone who doesn't think like them. Just like nazism, which was christianity twisted and mutated beyond recognition.

Second, Islamic Fundementalist usually reffers to people who wishes a state to be built upon the principles of Islam. Medias however, are very quick to misuse this term. We have here, Christian fundamentalists, who wishes the church to remain a part of the state, as well as Norse fundementalists, who wishes this country to be based on a religion that ceased to be widely believed in for an entire millenium ago. That doesn't mean we have a full civil war up here, even though there are people who try to start one.

Third, the principles of right of speech are believed in and protected here. But, they do not give the right to offend, however. Not up here at least. I think that the muslims who feel offended, including the ones abroad, should have asked the Norwegian Islamic Community (or whatever they call it), and also any other societies/organisations in other countries somehow involved, to sue the newspapers in question for dishounoring.

Hmm, I think that's it.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Naaah, not extreme enough. His house shall see a Cessna!

Even those random people running around claiming Fatwahs - religiously, no individual has that right. It's supposed to be agreed upon by a committee of established islamic scholars or something like that.

Here's more Fatwah Materia;

Where in the Koran ( translated into concise english ) does it state that there should be no representations of Mohammed, it's Author ?

 

[niky]

@Freddie: good post! 👍

But one thing... Nazism wasn't entirely of Christian roots... though it took place in a Christian country... it had its roots in Social Darwinism... which helped justify the extermination of an "inferior" race... oh... which just happened to be of a non-Christian denomination.

 

[Mark T]

Yep, it still happens...

What school did you go to? I went to Coppermil Primary School, then went to Willowfield Secondary School.

 

[Touring Mars]

@Freddie: good post! 👍

But one thing... Nazism wasn't entirely of Christian roots... though it took place in a Christian country... it had its roots in Social Darwinism... which helped justify the extermination of an "inferior" race... oh... which just happened to be of a non-Christian denomination.

The term Social Darwinism is misleading - crackpot creationists Harun Yahya like to equate Darwin to Nazism, but they wish to discredit Darwin, naturalism and the scientific method (and want us to become Islamic fundamentalists instead). The Nazis did indeed attempt a hideous social experiment that involved wiping out a race, and even researched into eugenics and the like, but I think it is an unnecessary slur on the good name of Darwin to call the Nazis 'Social Darwinists' - to me, Darwinism does not deserve these connotations placed upon it - similarly, if the Nazis had developed the atomic bomb and wiped out the Jews in that manner, you wouldn't blame Albert Einstein or Niels Bohr....

Anyway, sorry, slightly off topic, maybe this particular issue should be discussed in the C v E thread 💡

 

[F1GTR]

What school did you go to? I went to Coppermil Primary School, then went to Willowfield Secondary School.

Warwick School For Boys.

 

[Freddie]

There's a very nice article on this subject on Wikipedia. There appears to be plenty of misinformation and loss in translations, which again adds fuel to the fire.

 

[niky]

The term Social Darwinism is misleading - crackpot creationists Harun Yahya like to equate Darwin to Nazism, but they wish to discredit Darwin, naturalism and the scientific method (and want us to become Islamic fundamentalists instead). The Nazis did indeed attempt a hideous social experiment that involved wiping out a race, and even researched into eugenics and the like, but I think it is an unnecessary slur on the good name of Darwin to call the Nazis 'Social Darwinists' - to me, Darwinism does not deserve these connotations placed upon it - similarly, if the Nazis had developed the atomic bomb and wiped out the Jews in that manner, you wouldn't blame Albert Einstein or Niels Bohr....

Anyway, sorry, slightly off topic, maybe this particular issue should be discussed in the C v E thread 💡

Sorry to bring it up... True, Social "Darwinism" is an unfortunate product of the Nazi mindset that really doesn't have anything to do with Darwin himself. Nazism is so far out there, I guess it's unfair to link it to either Darwinism or Catholicism, though its (very distant) roots in either one wouldn't sway C v E in either direction.

 

[Flame-returns]

This entire debate is stupid. On the one hand there is a newspaper which had every right to publish a cartoon which some deemed offensive and which disgruntled millions (although proportionally the ones burning embasies and calling mfor the head of the aforementioned cartoonist on a plate is very small). IMO, the newspaper had every right to publish the cartoons although should have had the forethought to see atleast some of this coming and as a result should not have published the cartoons anyway.

The other side of this debate is so ridiculous it deserves its own cartoon:

 

[Touring Mars]

A good example of the moral hypocrisy of some of the more extreme demonstrators - article. And what is threatening to murder people if it is not an insult to an otherwise 'peaceful' religion? This small and vocal minority would do well to remember that they do not speak for the majority of Muslims (not here in the UK anyway) and that their behaviour is not only an insult to them, it is an insult to Islam and peace loving citizens everywhere. Behead those who insult Islam??

On Newsnight last night were assembled 6 spokespeople covering a broad range of the British Muslim community. One of those was one of the leaders of the protests here in London, from the organisation Al-Ghurabaa. It has to be said that he came across very badly indeed, not only because he wouldn't answer the questions or let any one else answer theirs without interruption, but also because he just didn't make any sense.

In response to Jeremy Paxman's charge that carrying a placard saying 'Behead those who insult Islam' is incitement to murder, he replied that it was not aimed at people in the UK - that is simply a bare-faced lie... Otherwise it is a gross misreading of the situation. How about the others 'UK, you will pay, 7/7 is on it's way'? - he simply avoided the rest of the questions by accusing the media of having a set agenda before he even came on the show.... well duh.... that is usually the point. What did he think Paxman wanted to talk about, the price of Cheese? His failure to give cogent and meaningful responses to the rational and justified questions about the behaviour of himself and the rest of his organisation, spoke volumes about the legitimacy of the protests themselves. Aside from the fact that this controversy is actually about some cartoons that were published months ago and that active elements within radical Islam have deliberately exploited the situation to provoke exactly this sort of reaction, there is also the fact that none of it given anyone the right to flout British law by threatening to commit murder on the streets of Britain - a point that Paxman tried to debate with this bloke from Al-Ghurabaa, but alas failed to get any real sense out of him.

Also, the moral authority that these Islamic extremists assume is grossly misplaced. Their inability to accept that some people may disagree with them is one thing, but their belief that indiscriminate killing of innocents is not only to be encouraged but praised is quite another. But coming from a bunch of hot-headed blokes who wouldn't know a rational debate if it bit them in the backside, who (as a matter of fact) have no moral authority whatsoever, it is a bitter pill to swallow indeed.

 

[DeLoreanBrown]

Here's more Fatwah Materia;

Where in the Koran ( translated into concise english ) does it state that there should be no representations of Mohammed, it's Author ?

Some These Images are by Muslims, so it is not a clearcut case of it being a central tenet or law arising out of a record, work or corpus.

It is merely an interpretation to be used at the whim of mortals that wish to endanger mortally in order to feel divine. It is a xenophobic drive by unseen forces & it has the byproduct of creating sects. Thusly, you get the House of Saud, a royal lineage dictating that a whole country shall be Wa'habist, even if in the initiation of this sect, it were considered heretical.

Power-over-others is the only motivation to turning Truth into murderous whim&fantasy. It departs from the Import that mohammed, Jesus & the whole cast of the central asian texts had in the time of these living men . Dangerous times can fashion weapons of mass destruction from what ever is handy ( warp & distort anything the Earth found initially Sacred/Valuable )

But what makes these times especially Dangerous, No Really, Answer me that one ?

 

[Carl.]

edit: oops.

 

[Touring Mars]

I have renamed this thread from "Armed militants threaten Europeans in cartoon uproar" to "Prophet Mohammed cartoons furore" and moved the discussion from the Current Events forum to the Opinions forum.

edit: the image above is a fake.... it may be similar to the placards seen on the protest, but nonetheless it is clearly a photoshop...

 

[Carl.]

Well, my bad. It reflected well the spirit of some protesters, thought.

 

[Touring Mars]

Indeed... infact, I'd say the real ones were actually worse

 

[Andrew R]

This has really got me angry, I'm usually not overly bothered by stuff like this but this is rediculous. There's always cartoons with God and Moses and whatnont, the Simpsons and South Park have them and they aren't exactly politically friendly but that doesn't start violent protests and death threats. This just makes the muslim community come across as violent people with no sense of humour or acceptance of other religions/countries/races etc.

 

[Famine]

I'd like to thank Islam for my latest avatar...

 

[smellysocks12]

Sums it all up..

 

[Touring Mars]

Sums it all up..

...again (posted already on the previous page)...