PS3 General Discussion

G.T
I agree. Even providing a disc with some HD content on it would be sufficient, instead of a whole movie. This would definitely show people the difference between DVD quality and would almost definitely improve Blu-Ray sales.
That's a much better suggestion in fact. Basically make a demo Blu-ray disc, like what some of the studios did when DVD first came out, and like the ones that DTS and Dolby distributed for several years.

By showing clips from many films, Sony not only is promoting Blu-ray and their films, but also isn’t losing out on possible sales of any title that they might have otherwise given away free for those interested.

Also, the advantage of a demo disc rather than a film is that they could include comparison clips between standard def DVD and Hi-def Blu-ray - which is going to be much more affective than just showing HD by itself.

The more I think about it, the more think Sony really screwed up a great opportunity that would have cost them very little money and without having to give away any free BD movies!

When thinking about Sony's Blu-ray and PS3 marketing departments, it makes me conjure up the old phrase "The lights are on, but no one is there." ;)
 
That's a much better suggestion in fact. Basically make a demo Blu-ray disc, like what some of the studios did when DVD first came out, and like the ones that DTS and Dolby distributed for several years.

By showing clips from many films, Sony not only is promoting Blu-ray and their films, but also isn’t losing out on possible sales of any title that they might have otherwise given away free for those interested.

Also, the advantage of a demo disc rather than a film is that they could include comparison clips between standard def DVD and Hi-def Blu-ray - which is going to be much more affective than just showing HD by itself.

The more I think about it, the more think Sony really screwed up a great opportunity that would have cost them very little money and without having to give away any free BD movies!

When thinking about Sony's Blu-ray and PS3 marketing departments, it makes me conjure up the old phrase "The lights are on, but no one is there." ;)
Don't worry, they still have time to arrange that for the Brazilian official release in, erm... 2086 probably. :grumpy:
 
Why give away movies when you can provide tons of movie trailers online for free in 1080p, which is what blu-ray offers?

It makes no sense for them to package in movies unless it's a limited time special, when nearly all of the trailers and vids on the PSN can be downloaded in 1080p (blu-ray's native resolution). It's pretty much WHY they have a Blu-Ray trailer section ;)
 
true, but a lot of people don't have access to the ps store and having a single BD that you pop in that has several trailers for movies and games, and maybe some other features (like an interactive user manual like the online one) is much more appealing than waiting through a long download time for a trailer you will only watch several times. I think it was definitely a missed opportunity for sony but they aren't idiots and I'm sure there is a good reason they decided against any "demo discs".
 
I agree that not every one has acess to the PS store or sometimes not even the internet which back in 2001 was my situation and a trailer for GT3 on a demo disk amazed me into buying the game.
 
Is there a S-video cable available for the ps3? if not will the same cable from the ps2 work for the ps3 (does such a cable even exist?)
 

I think, as a game developer, he's partially right. It makes sense to have a console sell easier, which in turn allows for more copies of his game to be sold. But other than that, it's a narrow-minded concept. Even if we stay within the context of gaming, it's short-term thinking to believe that he wouldn't use BD's higher capacity simply because he's not using it now. And beyond gaming, Sony needed to push Blu-Ray to get the leg up on HD-DVD. Even if hardly anyone buys BD movies, the mind share is there. It's actually working already, with Blu-Ray disc sales far outpacing HD-DVD.


So, yeah, he's a moron who should just stick to gaming. ;)


Technically speaking it is the reverse. 1080i is just 1080p in interlaced form. But yes, as long as the interlaced signal is properly flagged, and then deinterlaced, a 1080i signal can be reconstructed back to it's original 1080p form.

That only pertains to 1080p/30 vs 1080i/60. If the original material is 1080p/60 and is then converted to 1080i/60, you've permanently lost half the image.

Not that too many people are using 1080p/60 video....



Digital-Nitrate
This is why the refresh rate (often written as Hz) is such a useful tool for "smoothing" out moving images. By "flashing" each individual frame at least twice, it fools the human eye into thinking it is seeing more frames than what really exist. It is this reason that for film, the lamps in projectors at commercial theaters actually pulsate (like a TV refreshes), usually two or three times the frame rate. Thus a 24fps film will be flashed on the screen at 48 or 72 times per second. Our vision isn't capable of distinguishing this, so the result is that it looks like everything is relatively nice and smooth.

That's not true. You can have 15fps film quadrupled up to 60fps and it will look like utter poop. Doubled or tripled refresh rates are done for reasons of brightness. Even a still image can look dim if the refresh rate is low enough. Simplify it down to a single light bulb. Use the wall switch to turn it on and off at some given rate. Observe the room (not the light); it should seem noticeably dimmer than usual. Now increase that on/off rate, and the room will increase in brightness. Your average wall dimmer does exactly this, only much faster.

At around 24fps, the average person percieves somewhat fluid motion. On a large screen (10' or more), the average person perceives the on/off dimming effect of lowered light output. Double up the refresh rate (show every frame twice) and you are able to double the light output to the screen, thus increasing the amount of light the viewer observes. But the motion sure isn't any smoother, since you haven't added any new data.
 
Heres my thoughts on all of it...

You you were to include a demo disk showing me the differences between Blu-ray and regular DVD's plus whatever else it does, I'd literally go "heres another demo disk for the coaster pile". Instead, I'm Sony gave me a free movie, kind of like a dealer gives you the first crack rock for free, and let me see the difference for myself. It didn't hurt that I had watched the movie on DVD just a week before either though.
 
Heres my thoughts on all of it...

You you were to include a demo disk showing me the differences between Blu-ray and regular DVD's plus whatever else it does, I'd literally go "heres another demo disk for the coaster pile". Instead, I'm Sony gave me a free movie, kind of like a dealer gives you the first crack rock for free, and let me see the difference for myself. It didn't hurt that I had watched the movie on DVD just a week before either though.

Great analogy.
 
Duċk;2631484
If someone can afford to pay $600 for a game console, they probably have broadband.

there are a hell of a lot of areas that don't have broadband readily available, and I'm not just talking middle of nowhere either.
 
IGN Preview on Lair is awesome, videos 2 and 3 are literally mind blowing (to me).

July can't come soon enough. :crazy:

EDIT: Wait. What?!

As for other whiz-bang technology goodness, Factor 5 confirms that the game will run at a rock-solid 30fps at both 720p and 1080p. The game indeed ran quite well when we played it, with nary a hitch in framerate to be found. This is rather impressive as levels can be as large as 32x32km in size, which is allowed by Factor 5's use of streaming mesh technology, an offshoot of level of detail models.
What happened to the "1080p @ 60fps" PR spin? I mean, I'm irritated. They decided to ditch the smoothness of the game (that everyone can enjoy) just so a minority of PS3 owners would have a crisper picture. 👎

They better have kickass motion blur.
 
That only pertains to 1080p/30 vs 1080i/60. If the original material is 1080p/60 and is then converted to 1080i/60, you've permanently lost half the image.
Correct. And as the industry standard for 1080i is 60fps and 30 fps for 1080p, properly deinterlaced 1080i will result in the original 1080p signal.

That's not true.
It is true for the examples I gave, but not for the example you gave:

You can have 15fps film quadrupled up to 60fps and it will look like utter poop.
Correct, as the human vision system can more easily detect the lack of true motion under 24fps (unique frames), thus it starts to look like a quick moving slide show, which in reality, that is what film and video is. It is one of the reasons why the old silent films, most of which were shot around 16fps (most were hand cranked, so the frame rate could vary by quite a lot) look the way they do, even when they are displayed, as is often the case, at much higher speeds than they were shot at in order to lower the risk of having the nitrate film stock catch on fire from longer exposure to the lamp. You can also see how a lower fps signal looks by what most web cams and video phones produce, which is often just 15 fps at higher resolutions.

Doubled or tripled refresh rates are done for reasons of brightness. Even a still image can look dim if the refresh rate is low enough. Simplify it down to a single light bulb. Use the wall switch to turn it on and off at some given rate. Observe the room (not the light); it should seem noticeably dimmer than usual. Now increase that on/off rate, and the room will increase in brightness. Your average wall dimmer does exactly this, only much faster.
Except having it on without ever turning it off and on regardless of how fast results in the highest possible lumens... so no, the main purpose of refreshing an image has nothing to do with brightness, it has to do with the way our vision works.

In fact, the brighter the image, the higher the refresh rate needs to be because our visual perception for noticing a flashed image increases at higher brightness. You can see this by lowering the refresh rate on a computer’s CRT monitor to 60Hz and then crank up the brightness. The brighter the monitor is set, the more you will see the flicker effect. Notice that while you can increase the brightness, the refresh rate stays the same… the two are not related, at least not in any significant manor.

If we watched 24fps film with the lamp continually on for maximum brightness we would see more motion jitter than if it was refreshed at 2xfps or 3xfps. Refresh rates are used to fool the eye into thinking they are seeing more frames per second then really exist. The more “frames”, or flashing images we see within a second, the more smoothly the transition between frames becomes.

The primary reason we need higher refresh rates is to avoid seeing the flicker from the light source being turned on, because at 48Hz, that is enough to make most frames transition smoothly to the human eye.

At around 24fps, the average person perceives somewhat fluid motion. On a large screen (10' or more), the average person perceives the on/off dimming effect of lowered light output. Double up the refresh rate (show every frame twice) and you are able to double the light output to the screen, thus increasing the amount of light the viewer observes.
I'm very curious where you read this. Flashing a lamp that produces a max of say 5000 lumens isn't going to magically produce 10,000 or even 15,000 lumens because you are doubling or tippling the refresh rate. That's absolutely untrue, and goes against all laws of physics.

But the motion sure isn't any smoother, since you haven't added any new data.
What is smoother is the transition from one flashed image to the other, thus the transitions are smoother, not the actual motion, which is what higher unique frame rates are for. Ideally, as stated before, a higher fps is best, but that comes at a steep price of both the ability to capture or in the case of a game, create, and then transmit all that additional data.
 
Duċk;2631567
July can't come soon enough. :crazy:

EDIT: Wait. What?!


What happened to the "1080p @ 60fps" PR spin? I mean, I'm irritated. They decided to ditch the smoothness of the game (that everyone can enjoy) just so a minority of PS3 owners would have a crisper picture. 👎

They better have kickass motion blur.
Uh.. aren't you the one that doesn't care much about getting the most out of every pixel, and doesn't plan on upgrading their 27" analog TV for another five years? Why the outrage, especially when you seem so content on the lower native resolution and 30fps games on your XB360? ;)

It would be nice for a change to see you criticize XB360 games for the same reasons you like to criticize yet to be released PS3 games. Or even hold XB360 games to the same standard that you apply to PS3 games when you jump at the chance to express your disappointment in them, or on news about them. :)
 
Uh.. aren't you the one that doesn't care much about getting the most out of every pixel, and doesn't plan on upgrading their 27" analog TV for another five years? Why the outrage, especially when you seem so content on the lower native resolution and 30fps games on your XB360? ;)

It would be nice for a change to see you criticize XB360 games for the same reasons you like to criticize yet to be released PS3 games. Or even hold XB360 games to the same standard that you apply to PS3 games when you jump at the chance to express your disappointment in them, or on news about them. :)

30FPS is more or less the standard. When a game is confirmed to display at 30FPS, I don't bat an eye. When a game (OK, action games and racing games other than Ridge Racer) is supposedly confirmed to have 60FPS, that's something I really like, especially when there's great graphics to begin with. Now, when there's a big framerate drop like that, you just can't help but be disappointed.

As for not criticizing 360 games, you really don't see anyone supposedly confirming a game to run at 60FPS, then see it downgraded to 30FPS at a later date for no good reason. And if a similar scenario happened to, say, Mass Effect or Star Wars Force Unleashed, you'd see me raising hell. But since nothing has happened on the other side of the fence...
 
Nothing has happened on the other side of the fence... ;)

So you have no problem that a game is in 30fps, you just don't like it when early rumors do not come true. So, are you saying no XB360 game was rumored to have specs or features prior to release that changed, downgraded, or removed for the actual game - or do you only like to focus on PS3 games?

The day MS game developers deliver on everything they promise is the day the Flying Pigs win the Stanley Cup hosted by Satan himself. ;)

BTW: I'm curious, can you share with me the source from Factor 5 saying they were definitely making this game at 60 fps.


Come on Duck... at least be consistent with your criticism for all games, regardless of the console they happen to be released on.

That said, personally, I try not to allow expectations ruin otherwise great books, movies, and I suppose games as well.
 
Duċk;2631684
30FPS is more or less the standard. When a game is confirmed to display at 30FPS, I don't bat an eye. When a game (OK, action games and racing games other than Ridge Racer) is supposedly confirmed to have 60FPS, that's something I really like, especially when there's great graphics to begin with. Now, when there's a big framerate drop like that, you just can't help but be disappointed.

As for not criticizing 360 games, you really don't see anyone supposedly confirming a game to run at 60FPS, then see it downgraded to 30FPS at a later date for no good reason. And if a similar scenario happened to, say, Mass Effect or Star Wars Force Unleashed, you'd see me raising hell. But since nothing has happened on the other side of the fence...

I'm sorry, maybe you missed when Halo 3 was said to be 60fps, or when CoD2 was supposed to be 60fps, or when Gears of War was "aimed for 60fps". None of those games reached their milestone, and some are even disappointing. With the scale of things going on in Lair, you should probably keep quiet. The game has been 30fps since it's inception, and never 60fps, or even targeted.

It would just be better for you to keep your mouth shut, considering none of the 30fps games on 360 even match the visual quality or scale of Lair.

Even Gears of War doesn't have scale, it's a few enemies in enclosed spaces, intentionally, because the engine CANNOT handle anything more. The ONLY reason there are no frame drops frequently in Gears is because they limit the on screen enemies. Resistance does 4 times the amount of on screen characters, and an infinately larger number of effects and actions, yet NEVER drops in frame rate.

Seriously, it's pathetic, just stop posting, at one point or another, because we're tired of seeing you nit pick your PS3, especially when you don't even HAVE an HDTV.
 
So you have no problem that a game is in 30fps, you just don't like it when early rumors do not come true. So, are you saying no XB360 game was rumored to have specs or features prior to release that changed, downgraded, or removed for the actual game - or do you only like to focus on PS3 games?
I'm talking about framerate here, not changes in general. All developers on all platforms have an idea of everything they want in a game, and they may not always fulfill every bit of that.

BTW: I'm curious, can you share with me the source from Factor 5 saying they were definitely making this game at 60 fps.
http://www.gamespot.com/pages/video_player/popup.php?pid=928393&sid=6163833

CES Keynote, the actual part is somewhere in the middle.

There were also screenshots released of the game supposedly running at 60fps:

http://www.psu.com/node/1645

Come on Duck... at least be consistent with your criticism for all games, regardless of the console they happen to be released on.
Lair is more or less one of my top games of '07... not to mention it practically made me buy a PS3. And really, this has been the only time I criticized this. If Lair was at best a bargain bin game, I wouldn't care at all that the framerate dropped.

As for being consistent, just because a game is on the PS3 doesn't mean I automatically bash it.
That said, personally, I try not to allow expectations ruin otherwise great books, movies, and I suppose games as well.
Oh, it's not going to ruin it for me, I'll still buy it on the release date. I'm just a little disappointed.
 
You know, we still dont have the ability to change our backgrounds on our ps3's, but I was just messing around the other day, and if you press the PS button, while viewing a photo, it allows you to use the XMB, while the image is in the background, so essentially, we do have the ability to set backgrounds, but it only stays there until you play a game, or reset your system...still, I found that somewhat interesting.
 
You know, we still dont have the ability to change our backgrounds on our ps3's, but I was just messing around the other day, and if you press the PS button, while viewing a photo, it allows you to use the XMB, while the image is in the background, so essentially, we do have the ability to set backgrounds, but it only stays there until you play a game, or reset your system...still, I found that somewhat interesting.

You can also do that with music and videos.
 
You know, we still dont have the ability to change our backgrounds on our ps3's, but I was just messing around the other day, and if you press the PS button, while viewing a photo, it allows you to use the XMB, while the image is in the background, so essentially, we do have the ability to set backgrounds, but it only stays there until you play a game, or reset your system...still, I found that somewhat interesting.
Nice find! 👍

Duċk;2632037
You can also do that with music and videos.
👍








Duċk;2631989
I'm talking about framerate here, not changes in general. All developers on all platforms have an idea of everything they want in a game, and they may not always fulfill every bit of that.
Yes, and the same 60fps hype was heard from the XB360 camp. However, what has me even more curious is why would someone who is already self-described as not really caring much about image quality as much as gameplay would now express criticism over a change in frame rate, but not share the same or even greater criticism when XB360 developers change or remove actual gameplay elements?


http://www.gamespot.com/pages/video_player/popup.php?pid=928393&sid=6163833

CES Keynote, the actual part is somewhere in the middle.

There were also screenshots released of the game supposedly running at 60fps:

http://www.psu.com/node/1645
Neither of those are sources from anyone at Factor 5 stating that Lair was definitely coming out at 60fps. It's the same early development hype from sales reps that you see all the time on both sides of the fence... which is the point that I was making. If it bothers you enough to make critical posts on a PS3 game, then you should have been doing the same for XB360 games.

I'm not saying you are wrong in being disappointed that the early hype and rumors often do not materialize in the final product, but your insinuation that it is just coming from Sony is dead wrong. If anything, I have found the PR & hype machine coming out of Microsoft is much more prevalent than that from Sony... but both are guilty, and fanboys of both consoles are even more guilty of spreading hyped up rumors for which both Sony and MS end up getting largely blamed for.

As for being consistent, just because a game is on the PS3 doesn't mean I automatically bash it.
The point is, the same things you criticize many PS3 games for not only exist in XB360 games, but in many ways are even worse, and yet you express little to no criticism of those XB360 games. All I'm saying is if you want your opinion to be credible, it would help if you held XB360 and its games to the same critical standard you have set for the PS3.








It would just be better for you to keep your mouth shut, considering none of the 30fps games on 360 even match the visual quality or scale of Lair.

.....

Seriously, it's pathetic, just stop posting, at one point or another, because we're tired of seeing you nit pick your PS3, especially when you don't even HAVE an HDTV.
JR, honestly I think that's uncalled for. To be fair to Duck, he doesn't hype the XB360, certainly not in the way some have hyped the PS3. My beef with Duck is that he doesn't apply the same critical standards to the XB360 and its games as he does to the PS3 and its games.

However, I have suspected for some time that this may largely be an effort on his part to counter the hype he hears from others on the PS3. Sort of a Devil's advocate if you might.

I certainly would be disappointed if Duck stopped posting as I appreciate his participation, even when I do not agree with his opinions. I am especially impressed with his ability to research and uncover useful information. He may not realize it, but I really do respect Duck's opinions and he has shown a willingness to listen to others and change his opinion when given new information that contradicts what he original thought was true. That is a rare trait seen on message boards, and should be applauded, not condemned.


That said, I do wish Duck didn't feel the need to play the role of Devil's advocate as much as he does. I think it may unfairly paint Duck as an XB360 fanboy, which I really do not think he is. I strongly suspect Duck is just trying to offset some of the unreasonable amount of hype he hears from others on the PS3. Maybe if there was less hype, he might display more of an equal opportunity advocate... instead of the devilish kind. :)
 
Yes, and the same 60fps hype was heard from the XB360 camp. However, what has me even more curious is why would someone who is already self-described as not really caring much about image quality as much as gameplay would now express criticism over a change in frame rate, but not share the same or even greater criticism when XB360 developers change or remove actual gameplay elements?
Well, I feel framerate belongs more in the gameplay department – you can always see the benefit of it even on the crappiest of TVs. You don't need a $3000 60" 1080p Plasma to enjoy the benefit of it. And it just smoothens the gameplay out as well. It gives you a finishing touch, and I'll throw out examples later.

However, could you give me some examples of 360 devs removing gameplay elements?


Neither of those are sources from anyone at Factor 5 stating that Lair was definitely coming out at 60fps. It's the same early development hype from sales reps that you see all the time on both sides of the fence... which is the point that I was making. If it bothers you enough to make critical posts on a PS3 game, then you should have been doing the same for XB360 games.

I'm not saying you are wrong in being disappointed that the early hype and rumors often do not materialize in the final product, but your insinuation that it is just coming from Sony is dead wrong. If anything, I have found the PR & hype machine coming out of Microsoft is much more prevalent than that from Sony... but both are guilty, and fanboys of both consoles are even more guilty of spreading hyped up rumors for which both Sony and MS end up getting largely blamed for.

Yeah... well, in the end, I guess a 30fps game from a 3rd person perspective isn't so bad. :indiff:

The point is, the same things you criticize many PS3 games for not only exist in XB360 games, but in many ways are even worse, and yet you express little to no criticism of those XB360 games. All I'm saying is if you want your opinion to be credible, it would help if you held XB360 and its games to the same critical standard you have set for the PS3.

OK.

However, I have suspected for some time that this may largely be an effort on his part to counter the hype he hears from others on the PS3. Sort of a Devil's advocate if you might.

I certainly would be disappointed if Duck stopped posting as I appreciate his participation, even when I do not agree with his opinions. I am especially impressed with his ability to research and uncover useful information. He may not realize it, but I really do respect Duck's opinions and he has shown a willingness to listen to others and change his opinion when given new information that contradicts what he original thought was true. That is a rare trait seen on message boards, and should be applauded, not condemned.

That said, I do wish Duck didn't feel the need to play the role of Devil's advocate as much as he does. I think it may unfairly paint Duck as an XB360 fanboy, which I really do not think he is. I strongly suspect Duck is just trying to offset some of the unreasonable amount of hype he hears from others on the PS3. Maybe if there was less hype, he might display more of an equal opportunity advocate... instead of the devilish kind. :)

:)

I'll be honest, I prefer the 360. But I also like the PS3 a lot, and when some minor things get tweaked (DualShock 3, XMB in-game for example), I'll be on the other side of the fence so to speak. And when I think about it, there's more games on the PS3 than the 360 I'm looking forward to... like Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank, Heavenly Sword, MGS4, GT5, among others.

I also found some pretty cool pics of the enormity of Lair, but I'll have to post those later since I need to get out the door.
 
Oh come on, you have a 360 and ps3 as well.(Although I'm not sure if you ever did buy a new one after you sold your 20gig) You need no love. Get Ebiggs to share some of his parents' love.

What? I bought all of my stuff, buddy. :)

(except the PS2 and 360, as I didn't have my job yet)
 
Seriously, it's pathetic, just stop posting, at one point or another, because we're tired of seeing you nit pick your PS3, especially when you don't even HAVE an HDTV.
Oy. Do you ever stop?
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that we are tired of you going ballistic on people when they don't fulfill your PS3 ideals. He's reporting news (oh god!) and giving a bipartisan opinion on it (Oh no!).
For the record, I have niether a PS3 nor an HDTV that my parents will let me play games on, but I sure as hell can tell when a game isn't played at 60fps and it does annoy me. So take your best shot. I'm sure I'll hear "Nintendo Fanboy" and something along the lines of "You don't own a PS3, so you don't matter."
Digital-Nitrate
Neither of those are sources from anyone at Factor 5 stating that Lair was definitely coming out at 60fps. It's the same early development hype from sales reps that you see all the time on both sides of the fence... which is the point that I was making.
That is a very good point, but its also a rather common mistake. I have fallen for marketing hype before, and if anything I would find that it can be very difficult to wade through marketing shlock to find what will actually be contained in the final build for sure. In either case, the fact that it is known for sure now that it will be like that will hopefully prevent anyone else from getting confused over it.
 
Just to get back to the David Jaffe coment about BD support on the PS3, here's what he actually said.
And how is this different from the first time you brought this up? It isn't... it's the same exact quote... thus we have already responded with our opinions on why we think Jaffe made such a comment, and if Toronado is right, and he did it just to draw attention to himself... it appears he has succeeded. :)

Beyond that, it did get sensationalized and it was taken out of context.

He clearly said... "This will bite me in the arse in four years, because it was probably a smart decision, but I probably would have taken the Blu-ray out and sold it for less."

Seems pretty clear to me that he does recognize the importance of the Blu-ray drive, only that from a standpoint of him wanting to sell more games today (not future sales), obviously he would have liked for Sony to sell more PS3. By releasing it without the Blu-ray drive, Sony could have released it earlier, and for less money. as an added bonus to game developers, they wouldn't have to work as hard to fill a DVD than a BD. :)

As for the comment itself, I think enough evidence and opinions have already been expressed that show that clearly the PS3 and frankly even the XB360 need high capacity optical drives if they want to keep up with the growth of games.
 
Beyond that, it did get sensationalized and it was taken out of context.
Exactly. Taking the first part off of the sentence changes the context of what he said. He said he would do it differently, but that "it was probably a smart decision".
 
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