Purists racing in cockpit view vs exterior views
- Thread starter Paulzx
- 346 comments
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Scaff
Moderator
- 29,589
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
So the guy that drives the car doesn't know what he can see, but you do?I think it should be clear to anyone that he can see more than this!
He can’t even see the grass on the side of the track, let alone the track itself! Maybe he steers using the trees
The f1 video is much more sensible.
I think it should be clear to anyone that the driver of the car is somewhat qualified to say if its accurate or not.
Oh and in regard to the F1 video, which one, as the first has an almost identical view to the Tom Dillman one, NH has a slightly elevated view due to him being too big for most F1 cockpits!
As I mentioned (and illustrated) in my last post, all you need to do it look at the line of sight from the visor of a side view of an F1 car to see this.
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- 72
- United Kingdom
So it is not what he sees! If he’s looking down and tipping his helmet down by a few inches it’s too low and is misleading!
It just seems that everyone else here who has experience in racing cars says that it’s not even close to the real thing (single monitor cockpit view). I agree with that.
If you don’t then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree
- 860
- Longueuil
If they force us to use cockpit view, they better improve the frame rate in 4K/HDR...
It gets so bad (30-40FPS) at the start if the sun is low. I only use cockpit view offline with a limited # of cars or once I get the lead.
I don’t want to have to go back to 1080p because PD was too ambitious and poorly optimized their 4K mode.
It gets so bad (30-40FPS) at the start if the sun is low. I only use cockpit view offline with a limited # of cars or once I get the lead.
I don’t want to have to go back to 1080p because PD was too ambitious and poorly optimized their 4K mode.
Scaff
Moderator
- 29,589
- He/Him
- ScaffUK
Quote-mine and cherry pick much!!!
I don't recall you saying that you were fine with what is shown in cornering, or focusing on just parts of the straight line for being off!
So much for the hope of an honest discussion.
Indeed we will, but 'not even close' is something that I don't recall many saying at all.It just seems that everyone else here who has experience in racing cars says that it’s not even close to the real thing (single monitor cockpit view). I agree with that.
If you don’t then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree
The reality is that within the limits of a single screen its perfectly possible to get a view that is 1:1 accurate, what you lose is the periphery, a lot of which also gets lost when you have a helmet and HANS system on.
It also ignores that it still depends on the size of the screen and how far you are from it, would anyone like to say that this 'single monitor cockpit view' is not even close to the real thing?
http://baseperformance.net/single-seater-simulator.php
What makes GTS's cockpit view problematic isn't that its on a single screen, its that its a fixed FOV (not that its the most unrealistic part of GTS however).
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- 51,222
- Australia
- SpacedustDaddy
Aren't Gran Turismo "purists", any-view-racers that are not cockpit view? I mean, everyone that has played GT from the onset, has learned to drive in Gran Turismo, from views outside of the car. Those that continue to do so, would therefore, be the true purists. Just sayin(g).
- 21
- Charlotte
- AlpineAtum
I tried a little experiment yesterday. I don't have a PC but I do have Assetto Corsa, Project Cars 2 and GT Sport on PS4. I also have a PSVR. I usually prefer to drive in cockpit view, just to feel a little more immersed in the game, so I was very disappointed when AC and PC2 were launched on console without VR and GT Sport only has a limited implementation of it. Although, I do still love driving around in various cars and on various tracks in GT, just for the fun of it and the great sense of immersion it gives, compared to playing on the flat TV screen.
Anyway, I think someone mentioned it elsewhere, so I thought I'd try playing all three games, in cockpit view, using the PSVR in big screen cinematic mode. And it was a bit of a revelation!
Because I was sat closer to a much larger virtual screen, it was so much more immersive. Almost like VR 0.5! I even found myself tilting my head and looking out the 'side' window (at least the sort of 3/4 light bit that you can see in cockpit view) at the apex of corners. I even did all three online GT Sport Daily races last night in this mode and I didn't feel disadvantaged playing like this at all. If anything, I felt it gave my an advantage, because I felt like I was seeing the braking markers and corner apex's much better. Going back to playing on my TV screen afterwards felt like I was playing on a 5" phone screen!
I've not done any serious timed comparisons, vs playing on the TV, to see if I am really quicker or not playing this way, but it does feel a lot more fun and immersive, for me.
All three games felt great played in cinematic mode btw, but curiously, PC2 felt a little bit odd. Compared to AC and GT Sport, the tracks seemed somehow 'squished' and all the corners foreshortened. So I was braking too late and overshooting the apex. Maybe the FOV setting just needed tweaking. It was only a quick test, I didn't alter any standard FOV settings or anything.
Anyway, I think someone mentioned it elsewhere, so I thought I'd try playing all three games, in cockpit view, using the PSVR in big screen cinematic mode. And it was a bit of a revelation!
Because I was sat closer to a much larger virtual screen, it was so much more immersive. Almost like VR 0.5! I even found myself tilting my head and looking out the 'side' window (at least the sort of 3/4 light bit that you can see in cockpit view) at the apex of corners. I even did all three online GT Sport Daily races last night in this mode and I didn't feel disadvantaged playing like this at all. If anything, I felt it gave my an advantage, because I felt like I was seeing the braking markers and corner apex's much better. Going back to playing on my TV screen afterwards felt like I was playing on a 5" phone screen!
I've not done any serious timed comparisons, vs playing on the TV, to see if I am really quicker or not playing this way, but it does feel a lot more fun and immersive, for me.
All three games felt great played in cinematic mode btw, but curiously, PC2 felt a little bit odd. Compared to AC and GT Sport, the tracks seemed somehow 'squished' and all the corners foreshortened. So I was braking too late and overshooting the apex. Maybe the FOV setting just needed tweaking. It was only a quick test, I didn't alter any standard FOV settings or anything.
Scaff
Moderator
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- He/Him
- ScaffUK
- 21
- Charlotte
- AlpineAtum
Corsa
Premium
- 2,104
- United States
Here's the best tool I've found to help you fiddle, with the TV of course, not your VR.
http://andyf.me/fovcalc.html
- 884
- Space Coast
- Chevy_Heavy
Thanks for the cutaway illustration. I guess I really never thought about how they are positioned inside these cars. It's almost as if they are laying down and it's a wonder they can see anything at all. BTW, I use chase cam so I can see everything happening around me. Also as an old school gamer it's what I been used to since the Pole Position days. If they ever get VR working in multiplayer, I might consider giving cockpit view a go.
- 1,400
- Netherlands
I always thought when cockpit mode the visual screen is smaller, so there is less to calculate so the framerate should be a lot better than in other modes.
What am I missing here ? Is it the calculating graphics of the speedometer and steering wheel/hands ?
What am I missing here ? Is it the calculating graphics of the speedometer and steering wheel/hands ?
- 714
- New York
- GTP-DEADPOOL
Sorry but your photos are invalid in this comparison. For one you are comparing a photo of a car mid corner vs on the straight and trying to claim more peripheral vision. On top of which the camera used was most likely a gopro which has a much wider FOV vs the human eye. Apples to oranges.
Now I agree that you have less in GT than real life, the difference is not that dramatic. But relative to bumper cam, you have far MORE peripheral vision with cockpit view. I don't get what some of you guys are smoking claiming that bumper has more peripheral, you are literally hanging off the bumper and cant see anything on your side till it's too late which is why GT added the signals to let you know. With cockpit I can see cars along side me well before a bumper cam user, it's also why I rarely have any contact in races.
There's also the advantage regarding car control with cockpit vs bumper. Cockpit you have a better/earlier sense of oversteer vs bumper which acts more like a pendulum.
Chase cam is a joke. You are severely limiting your view of the car in front of view and are far more likely to make contact.
No it's not. Don't be ridiculous. The bumper view is inches off the ground and only a 180 view of everything in front of the bumper. You have ZERO side visibility. It is literally impossible for you to have more side view with bumper vs cockpit.
I don't disagree with the core concept here. But applying it to bumper cam doesn't work. In real life when you are mid corner, yes your brain is working off of prior intel from mental snapshots when it had a clearer view. BUT as soon as you get closer you are relying on snapshots from a different angle and your brain is compensating to piece it together, this is why so often people screw up mid corner and miss the apex. With bumper cam you are being fed LIVE information with a crystal clear unobstructed view of the apex. This is not comparable.
Is it a perfect representation of the real world? No. Neither are 3 screens, with VR being the best overall. But it's still much more realistic than the fantasy bumper cam so many use as a crux.
Your peripheral in bumper view is far worse than with cockpit. That's a fact.
Have you ever sat in a prototype? With a helmet on? If you had you would realize you have no clue what you are talking about. You are sitting increcibly low with a helmet on reducing vision even further. And for the record, I have. 917/962/908/NISSAN GTP etc.
Chase cam is a joke and should be banned outright. I'm fine with people using bumper cam, but I do agree with others on adding the ability to restrict a room to only include cockpit or bumper. Same for allowing a room to ban controllers.
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- 721
- United States
I just want PD to add the peripheral shadows to cockpit view. Because the radar is often overlaid over the cockpit or even the rear-view camera, it's not good enough to identify those around you. The shadows are a great help in bumper cam and that's all we really need. I'd drive on cockpit at least 75% of the time in Sport mode if I had the shadows available. How hard can it be?
TonyJZX
(Banned)
- 3,945
- Australia
These sorts of threads I feel have the potential to spiral out of control and be prime material for gatekeeping.
For GT I've 99% used cockpit mode, even if a bit inaccurate simply because that's how we do it in real life and we leverage our real life skills into the game when we do. I feel that I do not leverage any skill whatsoever in chase cam.
Some moments in GT5/6 I've used bumper cam for time trials but I consider that me cheating myself.
I feel that GT is pretty singular in that for me, it forces me to use the drivers seat as it were.
I have disdain for games that are better in chase cam because I feel that if your treatment of cockpit is poor and you're forced to use chase, then your game is actually... poor.
I have used chase in Horizon and in specific circumstances like drift events.
I think we are fighting reality in that we give up some feedback cues in cockpit mode and then are forced to use chase to compensate.
Gran Turismo really has never forced me to do that which I find says a lot.
Further to this, I've seen some youtubers w/ a full race steering wheel and pedals and they use chase cam. I mean... that's when I switch off but as always, its a free world, what you do with your sims is your business.
Strangely I am not hugely upset out GT5/6 having that low detail blacked out cockpit mode. As long as I can see the dials then I'm good but give me some kind of faux cockpit view so I can feel like I'm in a car.
For GT I've 99% used cockpit mode, even if a bit inaccurate simply because that's how we do it in real life and we leverage our real life skills into the game when we do. I feel that I do not leverage any skill whatsoever in chase cam.
Some moments in GT5/6 I've used bumper cam for time trials but I consider that me cheating myself.
I feel that GT is pretty singular in that for me, it forces me to use the drivers seat as it were.
I have disdain for games that are better in chase cam because I feel that if your treatment of cockpit is poor and you're forced to use chase, then your game is actually... poor.
I have used chase in Horizon and in specific circumstances like drift events.
I think we are fighting reality in that we give up some feedback cues in cockpit mode and then are forced to use chase to compensate.
Gran Turismo really has never forced me to do that which I find says a lot.
Further to this, I've seen some youtubers w/ a full race steering wheel and pedals and they use chase cam. I mean... that's when I switch off but as always, its a free world, what you do with your sims is your business.
Strangely I am not hugely upset out GT5/6 having that low detail blacked out cockpit mode. As long as I can see the dials then I'm good but give me some kind of faux cockpit view so I can feel like I'm in a car.
- 884
- Space Coast
- Chevy_Heavy
Different strokes for different folks. I feel people should use whatever view they are comfortable with for whatever reason they want. I use chase cam because I like to see what's happening on the track ahead of me and the cars around me, but that's just my opinion. To say something should be banned because you don't like it is a joke.
- 3,016
- Louisville Ky
- RlNSKY I is an L
I feel cockpit view is the only view to use but I would never go as far in saying the other views should be banned, that's crazy.
I do wish however we had the option to choose what view everyone could use when your hosting a lobby race. I feel a lot of people would join a cockpit view only lobby race. Plus it would also keep that S-FR Racing Concept 2016 (N400) from racing in every low N-Class race. Why PD decided not to give this car a cockpit when it's N-100 counterpart has one was a strange choice. But it needs to go into the Gr.X class with the rest of the non interior cars.
I do wish however we had the option to choose what view everyone could use when your hosting a lobby race. I feel a lot of people would join a cockpit view only lobby race. Plus it would also keep that S-FR Racing Concept 2016 (N400) from racing in every low N-Class race. Why PD decided not to give this car a cockpit when it's N-100 counterpart has one was a strange choice. But it needs to go into the Gr.X class with the rest of the non interior cars.
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GTS simply needs FOV settings. I don't get why the FOVs of the 919 and TS-050 are similar and those cars easy to use in cockpit view while those of the 908, R18 (2011) and TS-030 are dramatically different (yet similar to each other) and a lot harder to use. Have different people designed those in-game cars and just worked differently?
Pair that with the fact that there is no test drive option in GTS, so you spend 1,000,000 cr. on a car that is barely usable for you (I use 100% cockpit view and don't want to get used to anything else, I always found the view options the main drawback of the old GT games.)
Btw., the worst car for cockpit view driving is the Nissan GT-R Nismo LM (where's the apex? Here? Or here? Somewhere?!?
)
Pair that with the fact that there is no test drive option in GTS, so you spend 1,000,000 cr. on a car that is barely usable for you (I use 100% cockpit view and don't want to get used to anything else, I always found the view options the main drawback of the old GT games.)
Btw., the worst car for cockpit view driving is the Nissan GT-R Nismo LM (where's the apex? Here? Or here? Somewhere?!?
)
- 714
- New York
- GTP-DEADPOOL
Here's the problem. Chase cam doesn't give you a better view of whats happening ahead of you, not even remotely. You cannot properly judge the distance to the front car with chase cam, you are at a huge disadvantage. And it's usually the chase cam guys who have a problem following close, and they are more prone to bumping.
Chase cam is not realistic end of story. If you want chase cam play NFS. But if we want to take GT seriously then chase cam is a joke. It's also slower, you have deceived yourself into thinking you have a visual advantage but none of the top guys use chase cam and theres a reason for that.
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TonyJZX
(Banned)
- 3,945
- Australia
Chase cam can give you a longer view distance simply because of the fact the camera is like 10 foot off the ground.
It also gives you better side and rear quarter situational awareness. If you're in cockpit you rely on that GTS red blind spot meter or that huge radar overlay in Forza.
Chase cam helps immensely in drift since you can see what angle the car is, thankfully drift isnt a huge part of GTS.
Also look at it like this... if you're in a car on the race track, you're almost always in a full face helmet. Think about how much you may lose front peripheral vision in that case.
GTS could probably take a leaf from Forza in making some leagues cockpit only or chase only etc. to appease everyone.
- 1,743
- Aussie
- Tassie_tiger
Complete rubbish.
I know exactly where the front of my car is.
And the many people I follow at speed lap after lap within a few feet of their rear bumper would testify to that fact.
Couldn't care less if it's "slower".
Couldn't care less if it's "not realistic".
I'm under no illusion that I'm doing anything more than playing a game.
And I'll play the game, whatever the name of it is, the way I enjoy it.
- 1,743
- Aussie
- Tassie_tiger
Got inspired and jumped on GT for a quick burst.
Went for Gr.3 around Interlagos.
I know this isn't an earth shattering time, but did it in a 1:31.6.
Now I'm not sure what classifies as "slow", but that's probably quick enough to exclude me from that category.
Chase cam, of course.
And just to really upset the "purists", I decided to run it in the Beetle.
*Edit*
Whoops, robbed myself of 5 seconds there.
Corrected "1:36.6" to the proper lap time of 1:31.6
Went for Gr.3 around Interlagos.
I know this isn't an earth shattering time, but did it in a 1:31.6.
Now I'm not sure what classifies as "slow", but that's probably quick enough to exclude me from that category.
Chase cam, of course.
And just to really upset the "purists", I decided to run it in the Beetle.
*Edit*
Whoops, robbed myself of 5 seconds there.
Corrected "1:36.6" to the proper lap time of 1:31.6
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- 2,632
- United Kingdom
CSA Strong, TCS 2 as well I hopeGot inspired and jumped on GT for a quick burst.
Went for Gr.3 around Interlagos.
I know this isn't an earth shattering time, but did it in a 1:36.6.
Now I'm not sure what classifies as "slow", but that's probably quick enough to exclude me from that category.
Chase cam, of course.
And just to really upset the "purists", I decided to run it in the Beetle.
- 1,743
- Aussie
- Tassie_tiger
