Real Guns

[a6m5]

@Obelisk I have Remington 870, but I envy their higher capacity(1 more) & better placement of safety. They might even be cheaper.

 

[Brett]

@Obelisk I have Remington 870, but I envy their higher capacity(1 more) & better placement of safety. They might even be cheaper.

I loaded the 590A1 up with nine shells at one point today. It is too bad I do not have a bayonet or I could have thrown that on there too!

 

[a6m5]

I loaded the 590A1 up with nine shells at one point today. It is too bad I do not have a bayonet or I could have thrown that on there too!

Yeah, 8+1, right? I think mine's 7+1.

 

[Brett]

Yeah, 8+1, right? I think mine's 7+1.

Yup, 8+1.

 

[Obelisk]

Only shotgun experience in my family is my dad's old shotgun. My grandfather still has the thing. It was called a Featherlight?

Edit: Has anyone even seen the SAS-12/LAW-12? I know they exist, but I can't find pictures.

 

[prousonhairy]

I got an ammo extension tube today, so I can hold 7 now in the M4. (8 if I ghost load). It's just a screw on one, you unscrew the plug and put this one on. I can get a solid titanium one made for $200, but if I did that I'd want to make it 922 legal, and have to put at least three American parts on it. (Which is the dumbest law ever, all that Bs just to carry 2 more shells). This option was $50, and I can just put it on went I want, then screw the plug back on if I'm taking it somewhere. Instead of $300-$400 in unneeded parts on a brand new gun.

I also have been reading about gun storage in hard cases, and the possibility of rust. I'm going to keep my gun good and oiled up, at least every couple weeks, so I would probably never have to worry about it. But I did read some horror stories about people hunting in wet weather, or getting their case wet, and not taking care of it properly before storage. They go to open the case up after a couple months, and a brand new gun is ruined with rust. The foam in my Pelican case is supposed to be anti water absorbant, but I got a silicone gun sock to put it in, then store it in the case just to be safe. I also got a bunch of 50 gram silica packets to keep in with it.

The M4 has an anti corrosive coating, and the bolt and inside of the barrel are chrome plated/lined, but it's better to be safe than sorry, even if it's overkill I guess. I also got a few different size chokes that came today, a choke case, and some Slip 2000 Exteme Weapons Lube.

How do you guys treat your guns? My old .22 LR I just always used Rem oil, but I've been reading a lot on gun care as I want to keep this one in great shape. I've been Using Ballistol to clean, protect and lube, and will continue to use it. I make sure there's a good coat on the outside and inside of the gun. But the receiver rails, bolt and springs I'm going to use this Slip 2000 EWL, it's supposed to be great stuff.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

What the heck? That was strange.

My cousin, that happens to live next door, just bought a Black Rain Spec15 AR15 last week. So I'm going up there with my Benelli tomorrow afternoon, and we are going to shoot a bunch.

I shot 50 shells of target load through my M4 today(didn't take very long at all), and that gun is so bad ass. I had 3 shells that didn't eject properly, but I just had to pull the bolt back and cycle manually. This won't happen once I've broken the gun in a little more. They were only target loads, but there was very little recoil.

I've been looking at accessories for it, and I don't think I want to change the appearance of it too drastically. I will get a extension tube eventually, but even that isn't a must have. I've seen some on the internet that are heavily modified, and they almost look cheesy.

See knew you'd love it, great gun and worth its price.

 

[a6m5]

@prousonhairy I feel like I'm talking to a BMW owner now or something like that.

j/k

I don't shoot in rain(just once), so I kinda casually care for mine. I do use lot of Rem Oil for quick cleaning & Break Free for thorough cleaning. For lubing, or wiping the firearms after cleaning, I use Rem Oil on the outer surface & Miltec metal conditioner thing inside. I've received feedback that these products aren't the best, but I only do casual shooting, so I'm not too worried about it.

After shooting, I try to clean/lube my guns right away. If they sit for long time, once a year or so, I try to take it apart & wipe it, lube it with Rem Oil & Militec.

Has anyone even seen the SAS-12/LAW-12? I know they exist, but I can't find pictures.

I had to google it. Is that the SPAS-12? That thing is awesome, but I've never seen one. I thought it was discontinued awhile back, or something like that. I think I also read that it was only available for police, but that doesn't make much sense.

Yup, 8+1.

Jearous.

 

[Obelisk]

I had to google it. Is that the SPAS-12? That thing is awesome, but I've never seen one. I thought it was discontinued awhile back, or something like that. I think I also read that it was only available for police, but that doesn't make much sense.

The SAS is a pump-only variant and the LAW is a semi-auto only variant of the SPAS. I have a shortened (airsoft) SAS 12 coming soon if you want me to post a pic.

 

[a6m5]

The SAS is a pump-only variant and the LAW is a semi-auto only variant of the SPAS. I have a shortened (airsoft) SAS 12 coming soon if you want me to post a pic.

Okay. I'll check it out. 👍

 

[prousonhairy]

Well since there's usually a 3-6 month wait, I went ahead and ordered a Titanium Ammo tube from Carriercomp. Should hold 7-2 3/4 inch shells. This is pretty much the go to place for M4 tubes, they used to make other M4 parts but got so swamped with orders for tubes, that's all they make any more.

http://shop.carriercomp.com/product.sc?productId=3&categoryId=4

I'm also pretty sure I'm getting a collapsible OEM C-stock for it too. I've been going back and forth between it, and a Mesa Tactical Urbino stock. The Mesa Tactical has a riser and limbsaver pad, but I'm still leaning towards the C-stock.

Benelli collapsible stock, or:

Mesa Tactical Urbino stock.

The C-stock is quite a bit more at around $250 compared to $180 for the Urbino. So many choices.

 

[a6m5]

I like the look of the original stock the best, but I do prefer the functionality of the collapsible/adjustable stocks. I think I prefer the look of the Mesa better of the two, but OEM stock looks more refined..... Good luck.

I also got on to hopefully get some feedback from you guys. I'm looking really hard at this.

I know that Burris is a quality brand, but they are famous for mounts & rings. Has anybody heard anything about AR-536(Kit w/red dot), or their optics in general? I've been seriously considering the Eotech XR308 for my AR-10, but their reputation isn't really 100%? This kit seems to be in the similar price range, but it's a 5X tactical scope with mini red-dot on top.

 

[prousonhairy]

I like the look of the original stock the best, but I do prefer the functionality of the collapsible/adjustable stocks. I think I prefer the look of the Mesa better of the two, but OEM stock looks more refined..... Good luck.

I also got on to hopefully get some feedback from you guys. I'm looking really hard at this.

I know that Burris is a quality brand, but they are famous for mounts & rings. Has anybody heard anything about AR-536(Kit w/red dot), or their optics in general? I've been seriously considering the Eotech XR308 for my AR-10, but their reputation isn't really 100%? This kit seems to be in the similar price range, but it's a 5X tactical scope with mini red-dot on top.

That's a pretty cool scope. I like the red dot on top. I'm just getting into optics, so I don' know a ton about them yet. As far as straight scopes with no red dot, Nikon makes some great ones for the AR line. This one here is at the top of a lot of "best AR scopes".

Nikon M-308 4-16x42mm Riflescope w/ BDC 800 Reticle,Black https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M85OUCY/?tag=gtplanet-20

I've been looking at Aimpoint optics, they make some really nice sights for AR's and shotguns. I like this one but it's pricey.

Aimpoint M4 2 Minute of Angle ACET CompM4 Sight https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0011NGAK4/?tag=gtplanet-20

 

[Michael88]

I like the look of the original stock the best, but I do prefer the functionality of the collapsible/adjustable stocks. I think I prefer the look of the Mesa better of the two, but OEM stock looks more refined..... Good luck.

I also got on to hopefully get some feedback from you guys. I'm looking really hard at this.

I know that Burris is a quality brand, but they are famous for mounts & rings. Has anybody heard anything about AR-536(Kit w/red dot), or their optics in general? I've been seriously considering the Eotech XR308 for my AR-10, but their reputation isn't really 100%? This kit seems to be in the similar price range, but it's a 5X tactical scope with mini red-dot on top.

I've never understood why anyone would want a fixed power scope on their rifle. Its like buying a car that is stuck in 3rd gear. Buying a car with 5 working forward gears does not cost extra and has no downsides so why the hell would I bother with the stuck gear car?

With scopes its the same, instead of buying a 5x scope I'd buy a scope that has a magnification range of 1-5 with an illuminated reticle. With 1 power and an illuminated reticle you basically have a red-dot, you can use magnification 2-5 for various distances and field of view. So you have more options AND you don't need a red dot sitting on your scope.

Win-win situation.
With the fixed power scope + red dot combo you're just limiting yourself for no reason at all.

 

[a6m5]

I've been looking at Aimpoint optics

I've read a lot of nice things about these guys. 👍

With the fixed power scope + red dot combo you're just limiting yourself for no reason at all.

Well, I've mentioned it in this thread more than once, but reason one: Call of Duty 4. Seriously though, when it comes to quick target acquisition, I feel like scopes have trouble competing with red dots due to the limited eye relief?

Second point is more of a question. How come military/tactical optics are often fixed magnification? I've read nothing on this, but my assumption is the logic it's one less thing to go wrong?

I have little to no experience with any of this, so if I sound like a total dummy......... well, just put up with me.

 

[prousonhairy]

I've read a lot of nice things about these guys. 👍

Well, I've mentioned it in this thread more than once, but reason one: Call of Duty 4. Seriously though, when it comes to quick target acquisition, I feel like scopes have trouble competing with red dots due to the limited eye relief?

Second point is more of a question. How come military/tactical optics are often fixed magnification? I've read nothing on this, but my assumption is the logic it's one less thing to go wrong?

I have little to no experience with any of this, so if I sound like a total dummy......... well, just put up with me.

Here's a really good explanation. There's several reasons. Scroll down a bit after the first part for a more in depth description by people commenting on the article.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-snipers-use-fixed-instead-of-variable-zoom-scopes

 

[a6m5]

Here's a really good explanation. There's several reasons. Scroll down a bit after the first part for a more in depth description by people commenting on the article.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-snipers-use-fixed-instead-of-variable-zoom-scopes

Nice find. Thank you. 👍 Way more give/take existed than expected!

 

[Michael88]

Here's a really good explanation. There's several reasons. Scroll down a bit after the first part for a more in depth description by people commenting on the article.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-snipers-use-fixed-instead-of-variable-zoom-scopes

I'm not aware of any real snipers using fixed power scopes. They all know their dope like the back of their hand at various magnifications. Thats snipers 1x1.

10x is NOT a good middle ground, the more magnification you have the less light the ocular gathers, in rainy days or dawn 10x is VERY dark. Next is field of view, at 100 meters field of view is terrible with 10x, target acquisition is slow and you are missing a lot. At 50 meters 10x scope is basically useless.

Yes, mechanically fixed scopes are theoretically more reliable, but that was an issue 75 years ago. Variable power scopes survive pretty much anything nowadays, to really make a fixed power scope a better choice you'd have to constantly an purposely beat the rifle around like an idiot. Basically all hunting rifles and sniper rifles of today have variable power scopes on them and there are no reliability complains.

I have used a bunch of scopes throughout my shooting career and never had any problems with them, nor do I know anyone who had.

Second point is more of a question. How come military/tactical optics are often fixed magnification? I've read nothing on this, but my assumption is the logic it's one less thing to go wrong?

If you are talking about fixed optical sights like the ACOG and similar battle sights, to say it bluntly, the average grunt is not expected to shoot at extended ranges, the're mainly for cover fire and maybe room clearing so they're giving them a solid simple and easy to use fixed power sight that is somewhat usable for ranges up to 150m.

Designated marksmen and snipers who received a lot of rifle training are the guys who are expected to shoot very accurately at extended ranges so its them who get all the sweet stuff.

 

[prousonhairy]

I'm not aware of any real snipers using fixed power scopes. They all know their dope like the back of their hand at various magnifications. Thats snipers 1x1.

10x is NOT a good middle ground, the more magnification you have the less light the ocular gathers, in rainy days or dawn 10x is VERY dark. Next is field of view, at 100 meters field of view is terrible with 10x, target acquisition is slow and you are missing a lot. At 50 meters 10x scope is basically useless.

Yes, mechanically fixed scopes are theoretically more reliable, but that was an issue 75 years ago. Variable power scopes survive pretty much anything nowadays, to really make a fixed power scope a better choice you'd have to constantly an purposely beat the rifle around like an idiot. Basically all hunting rifles and sniper rifles of today have variable power scopes on them and there are no reliability complains.

I have used a bunch of scopes throughout my shooting career and never had any problems with them, nor do I know anyone who had.


If you are talking about fixed optical sights like the ACOG and similar battle sights, to say it bluntly, the average grunt is not expected to shoot at extended ranges, the're mainly for cover fire and maybe room clearing so they're giving them a solid simple and easy to use fixed power sight that is somewhat usable for ranges up to 150m.

Designated marksmen and snipers who received a lot of rifle training are the guys who are expected to shoot very accurately at extended ranges so its them who get all the sweet stuff.

Yeah I really don't have any experience with it, there's a ton of forums on "fixed vs variable" scopes. You are a lot more educated than I on the subject.

I do know that who is widely considered the greatest sniper of all time(and it's not Chris Kyle), used iron sights, and thats not BS.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hayha.html

Im partial to Carlos Hathcock though as well, I read a book on him in HS and found Him to be such a bad ass. 👍

 

[Michael88]

Sniper craft was different back then, according to Sepp Allerberger, the second most successful sniper of the German Wehrmacht, 99% of the times engagement distances were inside 150 meters, even in the open terrain of Russia.

Only twice he shot at distances of 500-700 meters. (Once at a resting Russian hitting him in the belly, estimated range 600-700m meters, and the second time shooting the optical sight of an anti tank cannon, rendering it useless, estimated distance about 500 meters. And he did that with a 4 power scope)

To get back to the topic, he also had to switch to iron sights several times because his fixed 4 Zeiss scope had an impractical narrow field of view to repel assaults from 50 meters or less, with many fast moving targets.

Nowadays engagement distances vary greatly so for designated marksmen and snipers a good flexible scope is an absolute necessity.

Personally, as I have mentioned numerous times already, find a 2-7x32 power scope to be as perfect as it gets. Small, short, lightweight, 2 power is still useful at distances of 25 meters and with 7 power you can shoot 600 meters easily. Also, with 2x you have a light gathering capability that exceeds the human eye, which means, set to 2 power the scope can be used as light amplifier allowing you to see better in the near darkness than with your own eyes.
This also goes for clear nights with full or 3/4 moon, you can use such scope in those conditions while all other sights would be useless. (red dot, large (fixed) magnification scopes and especially iron sights)

There is many things to consider when buying a scope, I recommend thinking about its direct applications first and cool factor second.

 

[Obelisk]

Okay. I'll check it out. 👍

Here it is!

Each shell holds 30 BBs, and there's 14. I could go an entire night without running out of ammo.

 

[Swagger897]

Yup, engagements back then were less than 300m about all the time. It wasn't the scope that was the issue it was the ammo they used. Light grain bullets on hot loads were used in standard rifles and the sniper equivalent. Groupings of 4 inches at 200m were common off range.

Nowadays people just want a big ass scope to shoot as far as they can.

 

[a6m5]

I recommend thinking about its direct applications first and cool factor second.

Application - Plinking + highly unlikely, extremely remote possibility of self-defense.

I think that Burris will do the job. When I start getting into shooting 100+ yard range, I might look into something else. Thanks everybody!

Each shell holds 30 BBs, and there's 14. I could go an entire night without running out of ammo.

30 bb's. That would hurt.

 

[Obelisk]

30 bb's. That would hurt.

It shoots three at once, not 30 at once. The shells act as 30 round magazines. Speaking of, one of the shells was a dud. The feed spring went bad.

(Airsoft grenade launchers and grenades are known to shoot 100+ BBs at once, though.)

 

[Michael88]

Yup, engagements back then were less than 300m about all the time. It wasn't the scope that was the issue it was the ammo they used. Light grain bullets on hot loads were used in standard rifles and the sniper equivalent. Groupings of 4 inches at 200m were common off range.

Nowadays people just want a big ass scope to shoot as far as they can.

Sorry but thats not really true, Russian, British and German general issue rifle rounds were very heavy, even at todays standards. 8x57 Mauser was 196 grains, Russian 7.62x54r was 180 grains and .303 British was 176 grains.

Those are very heavy bullet weights, for example 180 grains is pretty much the max bullet weight for commercial .308. and for 7.62 NATO standard bullet weight is 147-150 grain.
Nowadays there is a trend favoring lighter bullets, back in WWII heavy bullets were favored. Heck, after WWI the Germans switched from their WWI 154 grain to the 196 grain projectile.

All those rounds had pretty dang good bullets and ballistics for shooting long ranges, the limited sniper engagement distances were simply caused by tactics used during that time. Rifles of that time, equipped with optics could have hit man sized targets out to nearly 1000yds under good weather conditions.

Application - Plinking + highly unlikely, extremely remote possibility of self-defense.

I think that Burris will do the job. When I start getting into shooting 100+ yard range, I might look into something else. Thanks everybody!

If you want it simply because you WANT it just say so! I completely understand that, I buy stuff all the time simply because I want it, not because it makes the most sense.

All I'm saying is, without wanting to sound disrespectful, there might be some options out there that make a little more sense.

 

[Swagger897]

Sorry but thats not really true, Russian, British and German general issue rifle rounds were very heavy, even at todays standards. 8x57 Mauser was 196 grains, Russian 7.62x54r was 180 grains and .303 British was 176 grains.

Those are very heavy bullet weights, for example 180 grains is pretty much the max bullet weight for commercial .308. and for 7.62 NATO standard bullet weight is 147-150 grain.
Nowadays there is a trend favoring lighter bullets, back in WWII heavy bullets were favored. Heck, after WWI the Germans switched from their WWI 154 grain to the 196 grain projectile.

There's a lot of sources out there as far as what the German's were using back then. From what I've read in a few aviation and infantry manuals was that the 198/6 Gr spitzer was used at the end of the first war for arial combat due to its flatter arcs, and only mass production for the 198/6gr for infantry purposes was used around the mid thirties (although only at use with MGs). At some point before the war, during build-up, the s patrone bullets were then finally equipped for infantry use. However, since all ammo was standardized, the loads that sniper shot were the same as regular infantry.

Even more confusing, was whenever the change over for the .318-.323 barrels took place for the larger bullet, when exactly did both respectively receive the new 198/6gr spitzer's? At one point in the early stages of the second war, both IS and JS 8mm rounds were still in use until a complete phase out of the IS rifles. I've never found this information before.

 

[prousonhairy]

Opinions needed. Do any of you have experience with the Trijicon RMR or Aimpoint T-2 optics? They are red dot sights, and I'm looking to get one or the other. A cool company called Scalarworks makes custom rails for what I need, and they have bundles with the rails/mounts and sights coming out, but they don't last long.

The Trijicon is smaller, and a bit cooler looking. They can be put on handguns too. I'm liking the Aimpoint t-2 a bit more though, but I'm going back and forth between them.

That's the Trijicon rmr, that's not on the new custom rails though, that's the old one.

That's the Aimpoint T2. It's waterproof up to 80 feet, and is a 2 MOA red dot.

That's both of them on the new rails, so that's the heighth I will be looking through on my gun. One of the reasons I'm leaning towards the T2, is the co-witnessing with the iron sights/ghost rings is much better than the Trijicon. Plus it has a battery life of 50k hours, which means I can leave it on constantly for 5 years without switching batteries. I don't think it looks to bulky on the gun, but I am wanting opinions, or personal experiences with either if anyone has had any. The only thing with the T-2, is it mounts from underneath the rail, so I would have to take the rail off to remove it.

https://scalarworks.com/optic-bundles/

That's the company that makes them, they have some really cool optical mounts. Both packages should be available any time, but they sell out really quick, like in a matter of hours sometimes.

 

[Blood Eagle]

I wouldn't spend money on optics for a scatter gun. It's utterly pointless.

 

[prousonhairy]

I wouldn't spend money on optics for a scatter gun. It's utterly pointless.

Well that's not helping me at all! I get what you're saying though, and I've thought about that too. They are pricey, that's a lot of shells I can get, however I still think I want one.

 

[Obelisk]

Well that's not helping me at all! I get what you're saying though, and I've thought about that too. They are pricey, that's a lot of shells I can get, however I still think I want one.

You better get some rifled slugs because those optics will be useless where they should actually benefit the user. I mean, buckshot and any other shotgun shell of that kind won't be effective past...50 yards?