Real Guns

[Michael88]

Sounds like there is about to be a bunch of boating accidents and lots of standard capacity magazine will be lost.

Its gonna be total chaos, lots of people will miss the changes in firearms laws (almost missed it myself) and will effectively become criminals without them even knowing, the officials don't have the faintest idea how to handle the changes on a bureaucratic and software level, nobody knows how the police should enforce the laws - yet the law will come into effect in less than a month. And that will burn a TON of taxpayers money I bet.
Also some states will handle the laws very differently because they interpret it differently.

Total insanity, one has to be really careful right now since the laws are so vague. But two things are for sure, way more semi auto rifles in the near future and high cap magazine restrictions.

 

[Brett]

 

[Michael88]

Shot this with my Glock 17 today, 25 meters (27yds), but with my own handloaded ammunition. Strangely my ammo shifts the point of impact to 8 o clock, but thats OK, I was just testing it. I think it groups really well with my ammunition, especially when considering I'm an absolute pistol novice and that I didn't shoot very slowly today.

Still not sure if I should adjust the sights, its sighted in for my go-to commercial ammunition, but my handloaded ammunition, -which I'd also use for self defense-, shoots to the left:

 

[Xavier2342]

Just picked this up yesterday for $60 (Black Friday Deal). Can't wait to use it.

@Michael88 as far as your sights go, what I'd leave them as they are. If you're able to nail so many targets in black at that distance you'll be just fine at closer distances.

 

[a6m5]

If anybody needs Magpul MBUS, Bushmaster website got them on Black Friday sale for 50% off. For me, it came to just under $60 after shipping.

Edit: Forget that: It’s under $50 with code MBUSSET here.

 

[Michael88]

Checked back with my firearms dealer, he just informed me that the laws have been finalized, we can really get most semi-auto rifles starting at mid December this year. He already accepts preorders, and he let me fondle his polish AK47 and Dragunov clones.

Only the 10 round mag capacity limit sucks, but as I said, you can keep mags bought before the deadline at mid December.

 

[Xavier2342]

Checked back with my firearms dealer, he just informed me that the laws have been finalized, we can really get most semi-auto rifles starting at mid December this year. He already accepts preorders, and he let me fondle his polish AK47 and Dragunov clones.

Only the 10 round mag capacity limit sucks, but as I said, you can keep mags bought before the deadline at mid December.

Question, even though you won't be able to purchase standard capacity magazines anymore. Will you still be able to use the ones that you own as long as you do not load more than 10-rounds?

The reason why I'm asking is because something like this recently happened in California. Standard capacity magazine have been banned for several years and a recent ruling made then legal. Sadly that ruling was short lived and they're now illegal for use or purchase in California. But oddly enough, those who purchased their standard capacity mags while they were legal can keep their mags but aren't allowed to legally use them.

On a more positive note check out my latest purchase...

Spoiler: Drum Roll

I really wanted the Gen 2 but at 1/2 the price of the Gen 2, I couldn't resist. More to come on the scope and its intended purpose.

 

[Michael88]

Question, even though you won't be able to purchase standard capacity magazines anymore. Will you still be able to use the ones that you own as long as you do not load more than 10-rounds?

The reason why I'm asking is because something like this recently happened in California. Standard capacity magazine have been banned for several years and a recent ruling made then legal. Sadly that ruling was short lived and they're now illegal for use or purchase in California. But oddly enough, those who purchased their standard capacity mags while they were legal can keep their mags but aren't allowed to legally use them.[/SPOILER]

The laws about the high-capacity magazines are really strange, we can keep the high capacity magazines but it will be illegal to put them into our firearms UNLESS its at an official shooting range authorized by the authorities. We wont have to download the magazines to 10 rounds.
We gonna have to register the magazines, we most likely are going to get some certificate that says we own X amount of high capacity magazines for firearm XYZ. Since most mags don't have serial numbers they are going be registered by the total amount, not individually.

What is still unclear is if we will be able to buy more magazines from the type we already own, say you have one single AK-47 magazine after the law has been put into effect, can you buy more mags of that exact same kind? Some people believe that this will be the case so they are buying all kind of magazines, but only one or two of the same kind. I kind of doubt that though, and the gun shops I know said that after the law has been passed they will export the magazines to the USA. So IF we can still by high cap mags after the law has come into effect availability will suck hard, and if we cant buy them, well, then we can't.
So that is why I am not betting on getting mags afterwards either way.

Also, we're going to have to store the magazines in a locked container, they are now treated like restricted items - like firearms. Remember, we have regular police checkups for proper firearms storage (once every fire years).

Also I'm sorry to hear that California changed the law back again, that totally slipped my attention, I thought they were still able to get high capacity magazines. That sucks.

 

[Omnis]

https://pof-usa.com/product/p19-gen-4-enhanced-glock-frame/

The best glock frame is baccckkkk

 

[phillgt2002]

Hmm, I guess I’m going to Goodwills in Florida now.

Snips from the article and a pic

A woman bought a gift at Goodwill. Instead of a baby bouncer, she says she found a loaded semi-automatic rifle inside

Rosas and her husband were eager to take the bouncer out of the box but were shocked when they found a Mossberg 715T semi-automatic rifle was inside, according to Alvarez-Rodriguez.

"All of our husbands are military, there were five soldiers around, so they knew what kind of gun it was right away," she said.

If no owner is found for the rifle, Schneider said Rosas and her husband may keep the weapon if they follow state laws to register it.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/12/04/us/rifle-found-baby-gift-trnd/index.html

 

[Xavier2342]

BallisticsArc GPS rangefinder says 992 yards, according to my calculations I'm estimating somewhere between 971 - 1,006 yards (29.5" target, 2.8-2.9 MOA tall at distance). Either way I'm looking forward to getting back out there with my newly acquired rangefinder to confirm distance.

 

[Michael88]

BallisticsArc GPS rangefinder says 992 yards, according to my calculations I'm estimating somewhere between 971 - 1,006 yards (29.5" target, 2.8-2.9 MOA tall at distance). Either way I'm looking forward to getting back out there with my newly acquired rangefinder to confirm distance.

Good shooting, looks like you had a ton of fun! 👍 What was the caliber, judging by the mag it must be around .308 length, 6.5 creedmoore or .308?


And I just reloaded some 7.5 Swiss cartridges. Behold my ole bag O'ammo
Power-wise the 7.5S is basically a 30-06, its just shorter but the case is fatter.

 

[Xavier2342]

Good eye Michael88 it's a Savage 110 Tactical .308 Win 24" barrel. A small part of me wishes I would have gotten this rifle chambered in .300 Win Mag but at the end of the day I am still very happy with this caliber.

Seeing that bag of ammo puts a smile on my face. How many rounds do you have in that bag? Also, I can't remember but do you own a K31?

 

[Michael88]

Good eye Michael88 it's a Savage 110 Tactical .308 Win 24" barrel. A small part of me wishes I would have gotten this rifle chambered in .300 Win Mag but at the end of the day I am still very happy with this caliber.

Seeing that bag of ammo puts a smile on my face. How many rounds do you have in that bag? Also, I can't remember but do you own a K31?

.300 Win Mag would be better at 1000+ for sure but on the other hand, its MAGNITUDES more expensive than .308 and with the .300 barrel life for this kind of application is limited to around 1200-1500 shots. 308 seemed to do the job just fine for you so I think it was the right choice.

If I had access to a 900+ range regularly and I would have to get me a rifle for that application I would go with a 338-06 cartridge. That's a Standard 30-06 opened up to accept the bigger .338 diameter projectiles. That round comes very close to the .338 Lapua Magnum but at much less cost in terms of brass and powder, and it does produce about 85-90% of the energy but with 2 times the barrel life. (less pressure).
Damn, now I want one.

As for my bag'o'ammo, its probably around 180 cartridges, but I loaded each on a single stage press, by hand. I'm using a 150 grain flat base FMJ @trucking along at moderate 2750 fps. But its for my K11, that's the 1911 precursor of the K31, the K31 was developed 20 years later.
IMO the K11 has a smoother action and is prettier than the K31, but that just me. I LOVE the straight pull action.

Hickok having fun with a K11:

 

[Xavier2342]

Michael88 you are absolutely right about .308 Win vs .300 Win Mag. I was doing some ballistics comparisons on Gundata.org and you were spot on. Also, thanks for sharing that Hickok45 video. Now I'm a little upset at myself for not purchasing a K11 or K31 when they were still inexpensive.

Question I have you and everybody else that might be able to answer. I'm currently using Hornady 168gr BTHP Match ammo and I'm very pleased with it. However, do you guys know of any factory loaded .308 Win ammo with a Ballistic Coefficient greater than .531 (G1) or .267 (G7)? Again I'm happy with what I currently shoot, the BC I listed is for the Hornady 178gr BTHP Match ammo and I'm just wondering if there is better factory ammo out there.

a6m5 you still around? Haven't seen you post in awhile, hope all is well on your end.

 

[Michael88]

Again I'm happy with what I currently shoot, the BC I listed is for the Hornady 178gr BTHP Match ammo and I'm just wondering if there is better factory ammo out there.

Berger offers a load with their 185 grain VLD that has a BC of .555 with a muzzle velocity of still 2600 fps, which is pretty phenomenal for the .308. I think that's the best commercial long range load I have ever seen. https://bergerbullets.com/product/308-winchester-185gr-juggernaut-otm-tactical/

Fun fact, back when I had my .300WM I loaded 240 grain .308 projectiles at 2700 fp/s, those bullets had a BC of freaking .711. That load was insane at long ranges, still supersonic at 1700 yds with a 240 grain bullet, 50bmg has pretty much the exact same range.
Unfortunately it was so hard on the barrel it was toast after only 1200 shots. That's the cost you have to pay for crazy ballistics.

 

[Xavier2342]

Berger offers a load with their 185 grain VLD that has a BC of .555 with a muzzle velocity of still 2600 fps, which is pretty phenomenal for the .308. I think that's the best commercial long range load I have ever seen. https://bergerbullets.com/product/308-winchester-185gr-juggernaut-otm-tactical/

Fun fact, back when I had my .300WM I loaded 240 grain .308 projectiles at 2700 fp/s, those bullets had a BC of freaking .711. That load was insane at long ranges, still supersonic at 1700 yds with a 240 grain bullet, 50bmg has pretty much the exact same range.
Unfortunately it was so hard on the barrel it was toast after only 1200 shots. That's the cost you have to pay for crazy ballistics.

.711 BC and supersonic past 1,700 yards . I just checked out that Berger ammo you posted a link of, will it be okay to shoot through a 1:10 barrel twist rate? I found a store nearby that sells that ammo and would like to try a box of that ammo if it is safe to shoot through my barrel. Also, in your opinion what grain bullet would you recommend for a 1:10 barrel twist .308 Win?

Edit: Please disregard my question about the Berger 185 gr ammo being safe to shoot through a 1:10 barrel twist. I just saw this video and I'm definitely going to give this ammo a try but not at 1760 yards...lol...



Besides, from my current 100 yard zero I only have 41 MOA left of mechanical adjustment and 38 MOA of reticle hold over.

 

[Michael88]

Besides, from my current 100 yard zero I only have 41 MOA left of mechanical adjustment and 38 MOA of reticle hold over.

View attachment 874119

You should totally get yourself a pre-angled scope mount or picatinny rail, they are angled so you get an extra 20 MOA adjustment out of your scope. That's an absolute must for long range shooting: https://warnescopemounts.com/20moa-explained/

When you try the 185 VLD don't forget to tell us how it went!

 

[Xavier2342]

You should totally get yourself a pre-angled scope mount or picatinny rail, they are angled so you get an extra 20 MOA adjustment out of your scope. That's an absolute must for long range shooting: https://warnescopemounts.com/20moa-explained/


When you try the 185 VLD don't forget to tell us how it went!

Fortunately my rifle already comes with a 20 MOA base from the factory. But in order to make that shot without using any holdovers/compensating, I would need either a scope with my elevation or a 40 MOA base. As for the 185 gr VLD ammo, I'll definitely let you guys know about my experience with that ammo.

Today my buddy Don and I have the day off and decided to go shooting. Normally when we go shooting the winds are less than 5 MPH. However, my Kestel registered winds as high as 13 MPH. We got our butts kicked but not necessarily in a bad way. I will never claim to be a pro at this but, we learned the importance of reading the wind. Our distance today was 1,021 yards. I don't recall offhand what our shot angle was but I'm guessing approximately +5 - 6 degree. I only took 10 shots today but here is how things went. From my 100 yard zero I increased my elevation 39.25 MOA and held 2 MOA left of the crosshair to compensate for wind (at that time). The wind was very inconsistent and it wasn't until my last shot that I finally made a confirmed hit. In the end my dial-in for this shot was +30.25 MOA (from 100 yard zero) and 10 MOA left for windage which I chose to holdover instead adjusting my windage dial.

To give you an idea of how far the shot was, here is a pic from the same location we previously shot at. Although this is a cellphone picture to some extent it puts into perspective just how far away we were from the target.

We purposely placed a Tactical moving blanket on a bush for faster target acquisition. All jokes aside it was a great point of reference while trying to locate the steel target.

Here is a picture of our hits. Mine is the one just right of the bolt and my buddy Don's hit is the 6 o'clock splatter.

A few side notes, if you don't have a rangefinder the GPS rangefinder feature in BallisticsArc app is very accurate. Secondly, based on what experienced today I think my ammo might be traveling faster than the advertised velocity. If this is true, I'm excited about that because it extends my potential range with this ammo. Not that I'm too concerned about shooting beyond 1,000 yards. But knowing that I have access to factory ammo that can shoot beyond that distance makes me happy. Lastly, using the Bushnell rangefinder in conjunction with the Kestrel was pretty cool. I still need to play around with it a bit more with this combo and true my muzzle velocity for better elevation/windage from the Kestrel.

 

[Michael88]

Secondly, based on what experienced today I think my ammo might be traveling faster than the advertised velocity. If this is true, I'm excited about that because it extends my potential range with this ammo. Not that I'm too concerned about shooting beyond 1,000 yards.

There could be a lot of factors resulting in faster velocities, for example putting the rounds in the bare sun where the powder gets heated up can and will result in higher velocities, same with shooting a lot of rounds heating up the chamber and letting the rounds sit chambered before shooting. And of course each barrel will produce individual results.

That is one reason why I got me a velocity chronograph, buy a cheap one that will only cost you a 100-120 bucks, and they are very accurate and are super useful.

As for my shooting shenanigans, I stumbled across the Meprolight RDS system and now I can get it out of my head. I have a Glock 17 GEN 3 and that system allows me to use a red dot without changing anything but the sights. You simply replace the rear sight with the Meprolight rear sight which is nothing more than a Glock night sight with a rail on it on which you can mount the light with a quick release mount.
Its 400 bucks read to go. WANT INTENSIFIES

 

[Xavier2342]

There could be a lot of factors resulting in faster velocities, for example putting the rounds in the bare sun where the powder gets heated up can and will result in higher velocities, same with shooting a lot of rounds heating up the chamber and letting the rounds sit chambered before shooting. And of course each barrel will produce individual results.

I'll have to keep all of this in mind the next time I go shooting at that distance. I just found it odd because according to my Kestrel my muzzle velocity went from 2700 FPS (advertised) to 2983 FPS. But I will definitely pay closer attention to all of these variables next time.

That is one reason why I got me a velocity chronograph, buy a cheap one that will only cost you a 100-120 bucks, and they are very accurate and are super useful.

To be honest with you, purchasing a Chronograph is something I considered in the past. Back then they were more expensive and I wasn't that concerned about verify ammo velocity. I'm going to try truing my muzzle velocity as illustrated in the first video below. I'll also try using the method illustrated in the second video below and see what happens. If all of this fails, I will start doing my research on Chronographs.

As for my shooting shenanigans, I stumbled across the Meprolight RDS system and now I can get it out of my head. I have a Glock 17 GEN 3 and that system allows me to use a red dot without changing anything but the sights. You simply replace the rear sight with the Meprolight rear sight which is nothing more than a Glock night sight with a rail on it on which you can mount the light with a quick release mount.



Its 400 bucks read to go. WANT INTENSIFIES

Man that Micro RDS looks like a very interesting setup. Let us know your thoughts and opinions about it once you've made the purchase.

 

[Obelisk]

I don't know what it is, but I keep having issues with Beretta CX4s...

Some vids from a shooting range visit in September with @terrordog1490.

CZ75 -


Ruger...something or other. I can never remember the name of these revolvers.


Glock -


Problematic CX4, plus some tool ignoring my cease-fire call.

 

[Michael88]

Man that Micro RDS looks like a very interesting setup. Let us know your thoughts and opinions about it once you've made the purchase.

I know!
Heck, even my dealer has one of those, just an half hours drive away! But I actually wanted to save money on an AK-47, even sold a rifle for that. Decisions decisions.

 

[Xavier2342]

@Obelisk nice shooting, how far were you shooting? You shot a really nice group with the CZ75. Ruger makes so many revolvers so I don't blame you for remembering the model...lol... What Gen Glock were you shooting? I don't have any personal experience with the Beretta CX4, but when I first watched the video I thought you probably having an issue with the ammo or the magazine. However, looking at a few pics of the gun I wonder if the issue may be inadvertently applying just enough pressure to unseat the magazine while gripping the gun with your dominant hand? Also, you guys get to call cease fire at an indoor range?

@Michael88 which AK47 variant are you saving up to purchase? Also, have you considered an AK74 variant?

 

[Obelisk]

how far were you shooting?

Not entirely sure, sir. Probably a solid 12-15 feet or so?

What Gen Glock were you shooting?

Range didn't say. I'm not entirely sure to tell, either. All I know is that I never liked Glocks, and I never liked .40 S&W. It was mildly unpleasant to shoot.

I don't have any personal experience with the Beretta CX4, but when I first watched the video I thought you probably having an issue with the ammo or the magazine. However, looking at a few pics of the gun I wonder if the issue may be inadvertently applying just enough pressure to unseat the magazine while gripping the gun with your dominant hand?

Ah, what was happening was repeated FTF's. It was cycling but for some reason, the rounds were getting jammed 90 degrees up between the bolt and chamber.

Also, you guys get to call cease fire at an indoor range?

It was stressed that we could do that in the safety videos they showed us, so I just decided it was better to call it to be safe.

 

[Michael88]

@Obelisk

@Michael88 which AK47 variant are you saving up to purchase? Also, have you considered an AK74 variant?

Not sure, suddenly there are so many AK variants my head spins, lol. The Saiga AK's look good and are true Russian productions but they are like 1850 bucks, that's just too much for an AK. The Polish WBP ones look very good as well , the have forged trunnions and nice wood furniture and all that for well under 1000 bucks. And then there is Zastava AK's from Serbia looking very good too.

I like 5.45x39 but that's SUPER exotic around here, even to reload for, I have to go with 7.62x39. But no biggie, nothing wrong with the original AK round.

 

[Xavier2342]

@Michael88 brother AK prices are outrageous, I would get a Zastava AK as well considering how expensive the Vepr and Saiga variants are. Do you guys have access to the CZ Bren 2 yet?

 

[Michael88]

@Michael88 brother AK prices are outrageous, I would get a Zastava AK as well considering how expensive the Vepr and Saiga variants are. Do you guys have access to the CZ Bren 2 yet?

Yes, saw them at a shop but I just didn't like they way the looked and felt, very cheap. I know that's how super modern guns are supposed to feel like, but....eh. Would have to shoot it and run it through its paces to really have an opinion about it.

In any case, I did a lot of research on the AK's and it seems that if you do not go with a Saiga you'll be in trouble........eventually. Meaning its quite amazing how hard most AK clones fail after only a couple thousand rounds simply because they weren't made all that well, cutting corners with cast parts and problems with soft receivers and troublesome rivets.
I'm actually thinking about not getting an AK anymore but going with a quality AR instead, AR's seem much less troublesome. And the Saiga costs as much as a very good AR, close to 2000 bucks.

Also I only have a license for two semi automatic guns, one is for my Glock 17, the other for a semi auto rifle. Maybe I should go AR if I can have only one for the foreseeable future.

 

[Xavier2342]

Having to choose only one would be kind of tough. Just throwing out some ideas, but have you checked out any of the following rifles listed below? Also, how much do they cost in comparison to a Saiga.

• FN SCAR (5.56 x 45 or 7.62x51)
• HK G3 or PTR-91
• PTR-32 or HK variant 7.62x39
• Sig Sauer MCX
• Springfield Armory M1A variant
• FAL variant
• IWI Tavor X95
• Galil variant

 

[Michael88]

Having to choose only one would be kind of tough. Just throwing out some ideas, but have you checked out any of the following rifles listed below? Also, how much do they cost in comparison to a Saiga.

• FN SCAR (5.56 x 45 or 7.62x51)
• HK G3 or PTR-91
• PTR-32 or HK variant 7.62x39
• Sig Sauer MCX
• Springfield Armory M1A variant
• FAL variant
• IWI Tavor X95
• Galil variant

The Saiga costs 1800, the rifles listed here are in the 1800-2400 range, except the Tavor, SCAR and the MCX, which are 3100 or so. (€ and $ are pretty much equal right now)
I'm definitely going with .223 or 7.62x39 so this rules out the big boys like the FAL, the G3, M1 and the SCAR heavy. Even though I totally love the M1 -I'll definitely get it at same later point.
The Tavor is nice, but I' not a huuuge fan of bullpups, its very pricey and there is so much plastics. I'm a big fan of the Galil - updated AK systems are great- but I have been unable to find even one around here, let alone any magazines for it at all.
If it weren't so darn expensive the Sig Sauer MCX would be a very big contact on my radar, but I cannot justify burning over 3 grand for a rifle.

But Speaking of Sig Sauer, my local gun shop has a Sig Sauer 516 patrol and it is nice. I especially like that it is a short stroke piston AR, I'm not a super big fan of the direct impingement of the standard AR that blows dirt into the action. I know its a proven system that works but I still don't like it.
And it costs like 2200.

What I have decided though is that if I go with an AR-style rifle I'll get one with a 14.5 inch barrel, IMO its the perfect compromise between mobility and velocity.