Real Guns

[Xavier2342]

@Michael88 it's crazy to hear just how expensive some of those firearms are out there. €3,000 is a lot of money especially for a firearm that is usually sold elsewhere for less. But I understand that we're talking about the market in Austria, not the US. Can I add another rifle to the list? What about the Beretta ARX? Also, is the Steyr AUG ridiculously expensive?

Earlier today I was at the range and decided to check the zero on my Savage at 100 yards. When I first sighted-in my rifle, I did not have my muzzle brake installed yet. Long story short, I did not realize that installing the muzzle brake would shift my point of impact as much as it did. In the pic below you'll see a few head shots, those were my warm-up shots with different ammo. The first few shots I took to verify zero landed in the 8 ring. The next few shots were to correct my zero.

Overall I had good time at the range. Once I got the rifle sighted-in, the recommended adjustments I got from my Kestrel to shoot target 302 yards away were very accurate.

 

[Michael88]

@Michael88 it's crazy to hear just how expensive some of those firearms are out there. €3,000 is a lot of money especially for a firearm that is usually sold elsewhere for less. But I understand that we're talking about the market in Austria, not the US. Can I add another rifle to the list? What about the Beretta ARX? Also, is the Steyr AUG ridiculously expensive?

Uh, haven't seen the ARX, but I overhead the shopkeeper talking to a customer saying it would arrive soon.

The Steyr AUG is a no go for me, it was my service rifle when I did my mandatory time there and while it was a very good rifle bullpups just aren't my thing. Its a personal thing, they work fine but I don't like how they feel.

Earlier today I was at the range and decided to check the zero on my Savage at 100 yards. When I first sighted-in my rifle, I did not have my muzzle brake installed yet.

Oh yes, the muzzle brake changes the harmonics a lot, even the thickest barrel will shift POI when you mess with the barrel harmonics. You can do the same by shooting with the barrel resting on something hard, that will also change the point of impact a lot.
Small problem with the brake is, if you take it off to clean it and the muzzle you'll have to put it back onto the rifle in the exact same way it was when you sighted it in, or you will have a shift in POI. It cant be canted even a little bit and it must be screwed on as tightly as well.
Back when I had a rife with a brake I made markings on the barrel and brake to make sure I put it back on correctly.



My gun stuff: does anybody remember my 1911 that had problems with last round hold open? Well, it developed many more problems, and now after 6 visits to the place where I bought it I finally got it returned and got my money back. The gunsmith and I worked very hard to get it running, we swapped half a dozen parts and tried it a dozen times to no avail. He didn't want the gun back saying it was ''running well enough'' but I insisted vigorously.-
Man, that was hard but in the end it payed off.

 

[Xavier2342]

Michael88, I'm glad to hear that you were able to get a full refund. It just sucks the gun gave you so many problems. Are you thinking about getting another 1911 in the future? Springfield, Kimber, Sig Sauer, Ruger, etc.? On a more positive not, now you have more money to put towards a battle rifle on you choice.

I didn't expect the muzzle brake to shift the point of aim that much, but lesson well learned. When I got home I removed the muzzle brake and put a few drops of threadlock on the barrel thread. I also installed a different alignment washer for the muzzle brake for proper alignment. I guess it's a good thing that my nephew and I are going to the range this week.

Edit: I don't know what the parts availability is like in Austria. But have you considered putting together a gas-piston AR?

 

[Michael88]

Michael88, I'm glad to hear that you were able to get a full refund. It just sucks the gun gave you so many problems. Are you thinking about getting another 1911 in the future? Springfield, Kimber, Sig Sauer, Ruger, etc.? On a more positive not, now you have more money to put towards a battle rifle on you choice.

Yeah, that's exactly what I am going to do. I am sure the 1911 is an excellent pistol once it runs but oh boy, when something is going wrong its SUPER hard to find out what it is and you are in for weeks upon weeks trying parts to fix it. Also one problem is that in theory all 1911 parts are interchangeable, but in reality its not even remotely true, they are all different and you only figure it out when you try them out by trial and error.
That's a big headache.
No thanks, I have a Glock 17 and I am so happy with it. 500 rounds through it not a single hiccup, even with some of my odder reloads. That thing is everything I wish for in a pistol. Its lightweight, recoils very little, its accurate, fast to shoot, its got good sights, its SUPER reliable/tough and has 19 rounds in the tank. Why would I need another pistol really?

Edit: I don't know what the parts availability is like in Austria. But have you considered putting together a gas-piston AR?

I considered it, but I just browsed the AR's my shop has and they're all really nice complete packages, at most I'd maybe change a trigger or add a different front stock but that about it. Also building an AR isn't really that much cheaper around here, if at all.

I think most likely I'll end up with a 14.5 or 16'5'' '' standard AR with a good red dot, maybe a magnifier.💡 I like the AK platform for sure but I think a trouble free solution, a plug and play gun, the AR is it. As a second semi-auto rifle to compliment the AR the AK would be perfect though.

 

[Obelisk]

No thanks, I have a Glock 17 and I am so happy with it. 500 rounds through it not a single hiccup, even with some of my odder reloads. That thing is everything I wish for in a pistol. Its lightweight, recoils very little, its accurate, fast to shoot, its got good sights, its SUPER reliable/tough and has 19 rounds in the tank. Why would I need another pistol?

Honestly, am I the only one who isn't a Glock fan? They're great guns from what I've heard but they just feel awkward to me and their recoil is a bit snappier than I'd like. Personally, I liked the full-size 1911 in .45 ACP better.

 

[Michael88]

Honestly, am I the only one who isn't a Glock fan? They're great guns from what I've heard but they just feel awkward to me and their recoil is a bit snappier than I'd like. Personally, I liked the full-size 1911 in .45 ACP better.

Yes.

Kidding, nah, I know a lot of people who don't like the ergonomics of Glocks. I think its either a hit or miss, for me the ergonomics are very good.
Then again, I also like the ergonomics of the 1911 too so maybe I am just super adaptable. I can shoot both very well.

As for the recoil, I find the .45ACP in a 1911 kicks harder if its a 230 grain ball at 850fps+, way more than a 124 or 115 grain in a Glock. Especially even the fastest 115 grainers kick so little the Glock barely moves in my hand, the 1911 raises much more.

40S&W really sucks though.

 

[Obelisk]

Might be a mix of experience and preference. I still haven't really experienced enough variety in firearms to say if I have a particular one I'd like, but I'm kind of biased towards lower caliber revolvers (.38 spl, for example) or things like the CZ75.

 

[Michael88]

Might be a mix of experience and preference. I still haven't really experienced enough variety in firearms to say if I have a particular one I'd like, but I'm kind of biased towards lower caliber revolvers (.38 spl, for example) or things like the CZ75.

Yeah everyone has firearms he or she gravitates to, I too have shot guns that were just simply ''meant'' for me for some unknown reasons. Shot them really well right from the very start and loved them instantly while other guns I shot, which should have been excellent to shoot in theory, were vast disappointments for again unknown reasons. And it was not just ergonomics by a long shot, its just weird.

That's why you have to try out guns before you by them! Theory and logics do not guarantee good shooting.

 

[Michael88]

Oh and by the way, today I got me my .44 1860 Colt Army percussion revolver. Its a replica of one of the most iconic firearms used in the US civil war.
I think its super beautiful. Can't wait to shoot it!

 

[John Wells]

Oh and by the way, today I got me my .44 1860 Colt Army percussion revolver. Its a replica of one of the most iconic firearms used in the US civil war.

Lovely pistol, is true that they used cartridges after war.

 

[Michael88]

Lovely pistol, is true that they used cartridges after war.

Depends on the definition of cartridge, during the civil war they were already using cartridges for this revolver, but it was powder and bullet paper-wrapped that was loaded into the chamber, a so called paper cartridge. Later many of those revolvers got conversion cylinders, meaning they got cylinders for real brass cartridges as we know them today. It can be done by a simple cylinder swap.

 

[John Wells]

Depends on the definition of cartridge, during the civil war they were already using cartridges for this revolver, but it was powder and bullet paper-wrapped that was loaded into the chamber, a so called paper cartridge. Later many of those revolvers got conversion cylinders, meaning they got cylinders for real brass cartridges as we know them today. It can be done by a simple cylinder swap.

That's interesting about the cylinder swap, guy in our gun club, had one, trouble with the hand loading. Balls would bounce back, off the rubber bottom range, so had stop using, inside.

 

[Michael88]

That's interesting about the cylinder swap, guy in our gun club, had one, trouble with the hand loading. Balls would bounce back, off the rubber bottom range, so had stop using, inside.

Yeah that can happen if you don't use enough powder or too course powder in the revolver, the bullets are so slow they bounce back from soft materials like rubber. However, with the standard service load of 30 grains of 3FG blackpowder the 1860 shoots a 140 grain round ball at 950 fp/s, or a 230 grain conical at 800 fp/s, that's definitely not coming back.

 

[Michael88]

Oh man, today I made a mistake at the gun shop, I was just buying some components and while I was waiting for the clerk I handled a Fabarm Sat 8 semi-auto shotgun. 8+1 rounds, pistol grip telescopic stock, awesome night sights, picatinny rail on the receiver, 3'' chamber- and the best thing ,- I cycled the action and it was a glass on butter sliding feeling. It was oozing quality, and it IS one of the top end quality shotguns out there.

I actually wanted to buy an AK or an AR but now I am not so sure anymore. Come to think of it, my semi-auto long gun purchase would be fore self defense anyway, and a 12 gauge semi shotgun is pretty much the most powerful tool you can wield.

Man, I cannot decide!

Thats ''her'':

 

[Xavier2342]

A Shotgun is very versatile and I especially love semi-auto Shotguns. Everything I know about guns in Austria is from info you've shared with us. With that being said,are semi-auto Shotguns easy to find in Austria? How much does this particular shotgun cost in comparison to the AR or AK you're currently setting money aside for? In my opinion unless the local armory has a Steyr AUG waiting for you in case **** hits the fan, I think you should consider purchase your semi-auto rifle first before purchasing this Shotgun.

 

[Michael88]

With that being said,are semi-auto Shotguns easy to find in Austria? How much does this particular shotgun cost in comparison to the AR or AK you're currently setting money aside for? In my opinion unless the local armory has a Steyr AUG waiting for you in case **** hits the fan, I think you should consider purchase your semi-auto rifle first before purchasing this Shotgun.

Semi-auto shotguns are very common around here thanks to one of our weirdest laws that forbids the ownership of pump-action shotguns. Many decades ago there was a violent burglary-spree with a guy armed with a pump action shotgun, so it was immediately banned. Semi-Auto shotguns are readily available and totally free to own, lol. IMO its one of the best examples of how dumb most gun control laws are.

Anyway, it costs around 1190 bucks, that's 500 less than the cheapest AR's around here, but 300 bucks more expensive than the typical AK-47.

I'm gonna take a hard, close look at one of the AK-47s first before considering purchasing the Fabarms shotgun. Pretty sure either one would make me a happy camper though.

 

[Xavier2342]

So does this mean you'll be purchasing a Serbian AK in the near future ?

 

[Michael88]

So does this mean you'll be purchasing a Serbian AK in the near future ?

Who knows, we have got so many different AK's now, Polish, Czech, Bulgarian, Chinese and Russian of course - have not seen a Serbian yet though.

Interestingly enough, many suggested to really consider the Chinese ones, they are the closest to the Russian specs and they are supposedly really well made. Which would not surprise me anymore, I have come to the realization that the Chinese have stepped up from making crude and and inexpensive crap, a lot of Chinese products I have seen lately -not just guns- has been really damn good with no hooks attached. So I definitely don't rule them out.

Would love to go with a Russian Saiga though, they are undoubtedly the best, which is also reflected in the price. They cost about 2.5 times as much as any of the other AK's, almost 2 grand. I simply cannot afford those.

 

[Xavier2342]

Michael88 checkout this video. If you have access to Arsenal AKs and if they aren't as expensive as the Russian variants this is the way to go.

 

[Michael88]

Well, I went to the shop, handled and inspected some stuff and suddenly I was exchanging funny little paper sheets with faces and old buildings on them for a complicated piece of lumber and sheet metal. And it felt good.

 

[Xavier2342]

@Michael88 dude that is awesome, congrats on the purchase . Tell us more about it, what AK47 variant is it? What made you decide to jump on this gun so quickly? Future plans for the gun?

 

[Michael88]

@Michael88 dude that is awesome, congrats on the purchase . Tell us more about it, what AK47 variant is it? What made you decide to jump on this gun so quickly? Future plans for the gun?

Thanks man!

Its a Chinese SDM Ak47-S. In the shop I handled it, I did a field strip and I just liked what I saw. It was the last one the shop had, and it was the last one in the whole state, all other shops sold them in a week. There was a version with an underfolder but I did not like it very much.

The barrel was pressed nice and straight in the trunion, the front sight post is not canted, the rivets look really good - not loose nor pressed too hard into the receiver-, bolt travel is smoooooooth, the magazines lock in very nice and tightly -there is absolutely no wobble but they are easy to get in and out, its just perfect-, even the wood is more than decent, its proper hardwood and not any of that soft super bright IKEA crap wood.
I cycled the action with a dummy cartridge, ejection and feeding was good and unproblematic.

And heck, most surprisingly it has a VERY nice trigger that totally beats a milspec AR-15 trigger! Its a nice crisp (guess) 4lbs trigger with no creep or spongy feeling to it. Now that's something I did not expect!

Cons so far:
* I do not think the barrel and chamber are chrome-lined - but I could be mistaken.
* The front sling loop is way too small - intentional for the use of a carabiner?
* It did not come with a muzzle brake, but it is threaded for an AK brake. Gonna have to buy one.
* It does not have a side rail for optic mounts - but I have an aftermarket rail adapter that can be screwed onto the receiver so no biggie -

I have not shot it yet though so I really cannot give it a proper rating.

As far as my plans are concerned, I am thinking about giving it a plum color plastic stock even though the wood is kinda nice, I will install the side rail for a picatinny side mount for my Holosun red dot. Also I will add a muzzle brake. That's about it!

 

[Xavier2342]

Congrats again on the purchase, it sounds like you hit the lotto with this one. The buttstock you're planning on purchasing, is it collapsible or a plastic version of a traditional AK stock? How do you plan on addressing the sling loop issue? Any pics of the muzzle brake you're planning on using?

 

[Brett]

I ordered a Special Vickers One Lightweight Sling today since they were on sale. I figured I could use another sling.

 

[Xavier2342]

I ordered a Special Vickers One Lightweight Sling today since they were on sale. I figured I could use another sling.

I just looked up that sling, that's actually a pretty cool sling. I'm just trying to figure out how it securely hooks up to the buttstock though.

 

[Michael88]

Congrats again on the purchase, it sounds like you hit the lotto with this one. The buttstock you're planning on purchasing, is it collapsible or a plastic version of a traditional AK stock? How do you plan on addressing the sling loop issue? Any pics of the muzzle brake you're planning on using?

Thank you, but before breaking out the celebrations I will wait and see how the AK is performing after a couple visits to the shooting range.

I am still undecided about the rear buttstock, I like the simple plastic buttstock version of the traditional stock, but I also like the V-shaped wire folder.
As far as the sling loop goes, I just crammed my leather sling through the loop and while it was a little too tight it works just fine now. Applying some gentle violence fixes most thinks.
And the muzzle brake is going to be the one-chamber traditional one that you see on most Russian AK's.

 

[Swagger897]

The front hand guard looks nice but the stock is a bit off putting with it not matching.

Keeping the grip or have you looked for alternatives?

 

[Michael88]

The front hand guard looks nice but the stock is a bit off putting with it not matching.

Keeping the grip or have you looked for alternatives?

The stock is actually matching perfectly, its just my sucky indoor lighting that makes the rear end of the gun appear much brighter, lol. Also I have to correct myself, today while disassembling and cleaning the gun completely I took a quick look at the chamber and its definitely a chrome-lined barrel.

As for the grip, not sure yet. I cannot decide between a modern slightly bigger grip without finger grooves and those with finger grooves. I think a grip with finger grooves would stand out like a sore thumb because the gun got the classic look. On the other hand it sure is more comfortable.

 

[Xavier2342]

@Michael88 I think a Hogue grip what you're looking for. This picture is a several months old but I really like my Hogue grips. The grip itself is very comfortable and I like the texture. I don't necessarily dislike the finger grooves, but I wouldn't miss them if they weren't there. The only gripe I have about the Hogue grip itself is the open bottom. I wish they came with some sort of plug, but the structural integrity is just fine without one.

 

[Brett]

I just looked up that sling, that's actually a pretty cool sling. I'm just trying to figure out how it securely hooks up to the buttstock though.

I am pretty sure it is just through tension between the buttstock and a folded over tab at the end of strap. The webbing is on the stiffer on Vickers slings.