Real Guns

[Solid Lifters]

Great post, Zenith. Should be a stickey!

I'd included this:

 

[Zenith]

Thanks, I replaced one of early videos with that one.

This is great in-depth help to someone totally ignorant like me. 👍

My only suggestion, and it's to help a slower people like myself(lol), I could have used a red arrow or something on the gas rings picture, where it's noted how you could clearly see three on the left side. After looking it up on Bing, I see it now, but I couldn't find it on my own(I know, I know...).

Thank you so much for putting this together, Z-Man. It's so helpful with the detailed explanation + GIFs & other pictures. 👍

My pleasure!

I changed the gas ring picture with one that should be more clear

 

[Michael88]

Just found something interesting and wanted to share it with you guys: 12 gauge shotgun shells from birdshot up to 00 3'' magnum buck and shotgun slugs shot into gel.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

Conclusion: birdshot absolutely sucks for anything other than hunting birds, 00 buck rocks and slugs are impressive performers.

 

[Omnis]

Hey, Zenith, can you explain what it is that makes the bullets shoot out of the chamber when the BCG is blown back? Is it the spring(s) on the bolt (the two on those enhanced bolts) itself? When you get a stovepipe, does that mean your bolt spring sucks? How is it different from pistols?

 

[a6m5]

I'm glad that you are asking Zenith.

Hes going to be sooo happy. 👍

That is a deal. 👍 If she looks just like the one in the pic, he should be very happy. Personally, I'd have preferred something with a higher capacity magazine, but if that's what he wants.......

I changed the gas ring picture with one that should be more clear

I think the new pic works great. 👍 Again, great job Z-Man. 👍

Just found something interesting and wanted to share it with you guys: 12 gauge shotgun shells from birdshot up to 00 3'' magnum buck and shotgun slugs shot into gel.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

Conclusion: birdshot absolutely sucks for anything other than hunting birds, 00 buck rocks and slugs are impressive performers.

I've been under the impression that birdshot lack lethality, but many people I've discussed this with seems to think that birdshot is plenty for home defense.

For "tactical" purposes, I think I agree that birdshot is clearly not enough, but for home defense, if you just want to hurt the intruder, neutralize him, I do think birdshot would stop just about anybody. If it doesn't, well, you just pumped it again instantly, so go for the second shot.

I do see one advantage in using birdshot for home defense, and that is indeed the fact that it lacks penetration. While you'll likely just hurt the intruder with it, you also have much lower chance of hurting people in other rooms, neighbors, etc.

Thanks for the great link man. I'll be emailing it to my friends. 👍

Great post, Zenith. Should be a stickey!

I second that. 👍

 

[Zenith]

Hey, Zenith, can you explain what it is that makes the bullets shoot out of the chamber when the BCG is blown back? Is it the spring(s) on the bolt (the two on those enhanced bolts) itself? When you get a stovepipe, does that mean your bolt spring sucks? How is it different from pistols?

You mean the spent casings? Funny I was just wondering today if it would be a good idea to mention the extractor and ejector. I'll add this into the post.

We can see the extractor on the left side of the bolt face. As the cartridge is pushed into the chamber the extractor will hook over the case rim. The rear of the casing will be pushed against the circular bolt face. This also pushes the ejector, circle on the right side of the bolt face, inwards. To understand the forces being applied by each, here is an exploded view.

The extractor is the oddly shaped piece of metal at the bottom. It has the job of pulling the spent casing from the chamber. The ejector will assist it in pushing the casing out of the action out of the ejection port.

We can see that the extractor is on a pivot. The spring keeps the front "tooth" of the extractor pushing inwards towards the center of the bolt face. When the back of the casing that is being chambered is pressed against the inside of that tooth, the extractor pivots in a clockwise direction, compressing the spring. Once the case rim is over the tooth the spring force will snap the tooth into place. The cartridge rim will now be engaged on one side by the extractor.

This is an inside view of the extractor with the spring and insert in. You can see where the case rim will be engaged.

As the round is finally being seated into the chamber the ejector, basically a plunger with a spring, will be pushed into the bolt body, applying a forward (relative to the bore direction) force. This will be important when the system must extract the spent casing.

... (round is fired, things start to move backwards.)

As the bolt rotates and starts to move back, the extractor will pull backwards on the case rim, pulling the spent casing from the chamber. As the casing clears the chamber then receiver extension, the ejector pushes. Here's another shot of the bolt face.

The ejector (right) pushes, the extractor pulls (left). The causes the case to be flung out the right hand side of the gun. The extractor and ejector spring powers must be balanced correctly to allow for consistent removal from the chamber and the action. If one is too strong or too weak in comparison to the other, the casing might stay in the action.

... Discussing reciprocating mass weight...

Going to the issue of extraction, a slower moving operating system allows for the spent casing to cool and contract before the bolt tries to move itself and the casing out of battery. This means more consistent extraction.

Having the bolt unlock and attempt to extract with too much speed can have several adverse effects. More strength is required from the extractor spring to keep the extractor engaged to the case rim. Additionally the brass casing will be hotter and expanded further than a cooled casing, further increasing the difficultly to extract. In minor cases this can damage case rims for those who reload ammunition. In major cases the extractor is unable to pull the casing out. The ejector will be unable to "hold on" and casing will be stuck in the chamber. This is a failure to extract and takes very long to clear.

The French FAMAS exhibits this problem to the extreme. It features a delayed blow-back operating system that attempts to eject spent casings with such force and at such a high rate of fire that brass cased ammunition is ripped in two. This problem and the fact that they chose the wrong twist rate and rifling means that the French have had to replace their ammunition with steel cased ammo, completely nullifying the advantage of using NATO standard ammunition. Furthermore the French have stopped production of the steel cased ammo and have had to import it from China. Fun story.

 

[Michael88]

I'm glad that you are asking Zenith.

That is a deal. 👍 If she looks just like the one in the pic, he should be very happy. Personally, I'd have preferred something with a higher capacity magazine, but if that's what he wants.......

Pff, that things sends 540 grainers at 1200 fps downrange, it one-shot-kills anything that moves, no need for a second shot.
I've read that the 45-70 500+ grainers shoot completely through 2500lbs bison or buffalo from any angle.

This problem and the fact that they chose the wrong twist rate and rifling means that the French have had to replace their ammunition with steel cased ammo,

The updated version, the G2 has a 1-9 twist that can stabilize the SS109 and the M193.

 

[a6m5]

I've read that the 45-70 500+ grainers shoot completely through 2500lbs bison or buffalo from any angle.

Yi-yi-yi-yikes!

You mean the spent casings?

Doesn't take much to confuse me, and when he said "bullet", it did.

It features a delayed blow-back operating system that attempts to eject spent casings with such force and at such a high rate of fire that brass cased ammunition is ripped in two.

That is un-frigging-real. Also, too bad to hear that they depend on Chinese import for ammunition, which sounds bit crazy to me? I guess you could always buy from the Russians, too........

 

[Solid Lifters]

Pff, that things sends 540 grainers at 1200 fps downrange, it one-shot-kills anything that moves, no need for a second shot.
I've read that the 45-70 500+ grainers shoot completely through 2500lbs bison or buffalo from any angle.

Took my lever action .44 Mag out pig hunting many years ago loaded with 320 Hard Cast Lead bullets I loaded myself. One large sow wouldn't turn broadside. She stayed directly straight in front. Trying to reposition myself was pointless. She stayed directly in front. So, I decided to take her down with a head shot. The shot entered the forehead, past her brain, down just below the spine and made her a new asshole. I would've never believed it if it didn't happen to me.

 

[a6m5]

Gross. Amazing, but gross.

 

[Zenith]

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=hammer&cat=&page=1&search=&since=45&status=&title=

 

[Omnis]

Zenith, what do you think of monolithic rail/uppers? LMT offers one. Seems kind of silly though. Does it make it easier to float the barrel or something? Also, almost all of them seem to be forward rod operated-- any monolithic gas blowback systems?

 

[Omnis]

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=hammer&cat=&page=1&search=&since=45&status=&title=

To which my cousin says, "They need to ban tool-belts that are able to hold more than 10 hammers at a time."

 

[Lock2Lock]

To which my cousin says, "They need to ban tool-belts that are able to hold more than 10 hammers at a time."

I mean that's next hahaha.

It just seems that a lot of the people who say "bann this and bann that" Do not understand the meaning of the 2nd amendment

 

[Michael88]

Took my lever action .44 Mag out pig hunting many years ago loaded with 320 Hard Cast Lead bullets I loaded myself. The shot entered the forehead, past her brain, down just below the spine and made her a new asshole. I would've never believed it if it didn't happen to me.

Yeah, heavy lead bullets with high sectional density at moderate speeds are hard to beat when it comes to penetration, even high powered rifle cartridges often can't match the penetration of a heavy lead 45-70, .44mag or 45colt.
However, if you push those lead bullets to higher speeds like 1600fp/s+ they suddenly start to suck at penetration because the additional velocity makes the bullet deform too quickly. Its simply too much velocity for the bullet design.
Hunters often make that mistake, they think if they can push those heavy lead slug to apocalyptic speeds with max loads their killing power increases dramatically, but the opposite happens.

 

[Zenith]

Zenith, what do you think of monolithic rail/uppers? LMT offers one. Seems kind of silly though. Does it make it easier to float the barrel or something? Also, almost all of them seem to be forward rod operated-- any monolithic gas blowback systems?

Most rails/forearms are mounted to the barrel nut. Some require an anti-rotation feature so that torque on the hand guard does not unscrew the barrel but. Monolithic uppers eliminate this possibility and the need for an anti-rotation feature.

Monolithic uppers are designed to allow a barrel change without having to disassemble the entire front end. If you change barrels often this could be an advantage.

They are also theoretically stiffer than the standard configuration, which should make the front sight shift less when force is applied to the fore-end. The top rail is also uninterrupted. It makes mounting an optic above the barrel a possibility where the normal location is somewhere on the upper receiver. For people who run long night vision setups, this is a big plus. For us that don't, we can put an optic basically anywhere we want with the right mount.

As far as your free float question, theoretically yes. Since the force applied to the hand guard is going to the receiver instead of the barrel nut, there's less force on the barrel. That force might as well be nothing though.

The disadvantage is that they tend to be slightly heavier. LMT has recently put a lot of focus on their 308's, where the weight difference is less important, I'm guessing that they liked the design and brought it over. I've shot an LMT MRP, it felt slightly heavier than I'm used to. No big deal though.

I'm one of those guys that really likes light-weight stuff, so I don't see how the tiny advantages they offer are worth the weight. I'd consider one on a .308 though, especially since LMT's .308's kick so much ass.

 

[Crash]

Excellent post, Zenith. Thank you for taking the time to write them! 👍

--

I was on CZ's website looking at rifles. They look very nice, but man, they get expensive quickly...

There's a new CZ 452 rifle for sale at a local shop. Does anyone have much knowledge about that rifle?

Also, does anyone have any experience with Sig's DAK? I've never shot one and I'm curious about what it's like compared to regular single action/double action.

 

[Michael88]

I don't own a 452 but a lot of friends do, they say its shoots great but they still prefer the 452 with the heavy barrel which is -according to them- one of the most accurate commercially available rimfire rifles.

If I wanted to buy a 22 though I'd get an Izmash Sobol, thats an accurate russian rimfire rifle, the neat thing is it has a straight-pull action that can be operated with the thumb like those biathlon rifles.

There is also a military version with a silencer, pretty much the coolest 22 ever.

 

[Zenith]

*accidental post*

 

[arora]

someone mention big bores so I figured I'd share this one. I usually lob 405 grains around 1400 I guess, stock rem loads work well enough for elk up to 300 yds.

I have the two guns all Alaskan rangers used to have issued, the 45/70 and a ruger 44 super red hawk. I like to fly fish up north and feel safe.

 

[Michael88]

someone mention big bores so I figured I'd share this one. I usually lob 405 grains around 1400 I guess, stock rem loads work well enough for elk up to 300 yds.

I have the two guns all Alaskan rangers used to have issued, the 45/70 and a ruger 44 super red hawk. I like to fly fish up north and feel safe.

Nice gun, I love levers! Is it a Marlin?
405 @ 1400 is pretty much the original military load, I get that much fps with ~65 2FG black powder and a LRN 405 with zero compression. TONS of fun, easy on the shoulder but everything it hits gets totally knocked on its ass.
Do you know if your lever would stabilize the big 500 grainers?

 

[Michael88]

Ops, double post.

 

[a6m5]

Alaska's different country altogether. I know, because I've seen Survivorman show on Discovery.

Thanks for sharing. Badass rifle. 👍

Edit: Michael, you hit the wrong button for 'edit'.

 

[arora]

It's a marlin 1895 👍

I've shot modern hot loads out of it, not sure if I've gone over 500 in grain though. It does what it wants for me plain jane tbh, I don't use it often but I always take it when I'm in Wyoming or Montana.

I prefer using my 30/30 and bagging small mulies

Thanks for sharing. Badass rifle

👍

 

[Michael88]

Buffalo bore makes a 500 grain @ 1600 fp/s 45-70 if I remember correctly, sounds like a cartridge that kills on both ends.

Whats the scope? Looks like 40mm a but I cant tell the manufacturer...

Edit: Michael, you hit the wrong button for 'edit'.

I just got confused, so many buttons....

 

[arora]

aha, that is a load I have fired through it yeah, bruzer lol.

that is just a bushnell, nothing special but it handles the shock well enough.

 

[Michael88]

Bushnells aren't bad, had a 3-9x50 on a 308 and it was so clear I could see pretty well at night if there was a full moon. Also POI never changed.
But now the Redfields are the best budget scopes hands down. And the accu point reticle just rocks. 👍

aha, that is a load I have fired through it yeah, bruzer lol.

Awesome! 👍 Must have kicked like a 3'' magnum slug.

 

[a6m5]

If I fired one when I have a headache or something, I bet I'd throw up. I had to read up a bit on the rifle & the caliber. So many different types of firearms out there!(and ballistics!)

I forgot to mention I looked around for some ammunition while shopping over the weekend. .22LR's still completely out, found some .308, AK rounds at Walmart, etc. I can see that they are at least getting some in, but they are basically flying off the shelves.

I just bought some 12-Gauge slugs at Walmart for $11.27(15 shells). Probably cost a bit more in Austria.

 

[Michael88]

I just bought some 12-Gauge slugs at Walmart for $11.27(15 shells). Probably cost a bit more in Austria.

Hey! Not THAT much more actually, I think I'm paying something around .90 / Brenneke slug, thats just 2 bucks more for 15. The high quality target slugs run for 1.20 per slug I think.

What kind of slugs did you buy? I'm a slug-a-holic!

Talking about prices overseas, I wish the US was around the corner, I'm still waiting for my parcel that contains my target sights. The wait is killing me....

 

[Solid Lifters]

Marlin makes great lever actions. If I were looking for a new one, I'd get the Model 1895SBL.