Religion is contrived

[James2097]

No, if you actually read my post that you have quoted you will see there is a question in there, directed at you as it happens.

Oh, Ok. Then I agree that God hasn't helped anyone in any real way, nor has He harmed them. Considering God doesn't exist, I find this a reasonable deduction. Basically its an absurd debate, because you are arguing a premise that assumes you think God could have some kind of impact in the world at all (good or bad)!
I assume you're not religious of any persuasion here...

 

[JacktheHat]

Yeah, I already answered it. A while ago. Here

Guess you just went on by.

So, you going to get to my question now?

Look in the old testament. How many times did the hebrews fail God? Honestly, I lost count after the book of judges. They failed him, went into captivity, persecutition or your favorite word exploitation. When they came to there senses God brought them out. They did this over and over.

Were they still God's chosen people? Yep! but did they go through hard times like 400 years of slavery in Egypt? Yep!

So, to answer your question. People fail God in a multitude of ways. I know I've failed him before. As every believer has:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Everyone has failed God at some point. I can't tell you, "Well those people in Africa that are suffering failed God like this...." However, I can tell you that there are a lot of war torn nathions over there and one of the members of my church is from Liberia. That country recently came out of yet another civil war. But her family wasn't hurt or persecuited even though fighting was taking place right in their town. So the suffering can very likely be through no fault of their own.

So again, God doesn't fail people. People, like myself, fail God.

I don't quite see the answer there myself...

They were supposedly 'Godless' before and their standard of life was quite possibly better than it is now.
Now they have 'found God' it is arguable that their situation has deteriorated, they don't own their own land, they no longer have the means to provide for themselves, their governments are corrupted and their country is in hock to first world banks.

Why is this?

 

[JacktheHat]

Oh, Ok. Then I agree that God hasn't helped anyone in any real way, nor has He harmed them. Considering God doesn't exist, I find this a reasonable deduction. Basically its an absurd debate, because you are arguing a premise that assumes you think God could have some kind of impact in the world at all (good or bad)!
I assume you're not religious of any persuasion here...

No I'm not religious.

My point, though, is that those who do believe in God claim that he is a 'superior' being with 'immense' powers.

In fact this debate began when Swift claimed that God had helped him in his life and I asked what he was doing for the truly needy.

 

[Swift]

I don't quite see the answer there myself...

One, you didn't see Pako's excellent statement.

Two, how is

Everyone has failed God at some point. I can't tell you, "Well those people in Africa that are suffering failed God like this...." However, I can tell you that there are a lot of war torn nathions over there and one of the members of my church is from Liberia. That country recently came out of yet another civil war. But her family wasn't hurt or persecuited even though fighting was taking place right in their town. So the suffering can very likely be through no fault of their own.

Not answering your question?

 

[JacktheHat]

One, you didn't see Pako's excellent statement.

Two, how is



Not answering your question?

One, He makes an assumption that atheists must think that man is great because they don't believe in God. That's wrong, or at least in my case, and I blame the situation that these people find themselves in squarely at the feet of 'developed' nations.


Two, because it isn't an answer to my question. Simple. Have you addressed what I asked? No.

 

[Swift]

One, He makes an assumption that atheists must think that man is great because they don't believe in God. That's wrong, or at least in my case, and I blame the situation that these people find themselves in squarely at the feet of 'developed' nations.


Two, because it isn't an answer to my question. Simple. Have you addressed what I asked? No.

You said "how do people fail God?" I told you that it's not possible for me to know exactly how someone else fails God. But that we all do. I also stated that not all suffering comes from failure.

 

[Pako]

One, He makes an assumption that atheists must think that man is great because they don't believe in God. That's wrong, or at least in my case, and I blame the situation that these people find themselves in squarely at the feet of 'developed' nations.


Two, because it isn't an answer to my question. Simple. Have you addressed what I asked? No.

From EVERY atheist I have ever talked with, I have been told that they hold faith and trust in themselves and others around them. They place no faith or trust in a god. And atheists do think man is great, according to them, man is the most advanced life form that they know of. Why wouldn't they hold themselves in high esteem whereby lacking humility because it is SELF that they must rely on.

 

[sicbeing]

i hate hearing that from atheists.. "i believe in MYSELF"...

 

[James2097]

From EVERY atheist I have ever talked with, I have been told that they hold faith and trust in themselves and others around them. They place no faith or trust in a god. And atheists do think man is great, according to them, man is the most advanced life form that they know of. Why wouldn't they hold themselves in high esteem whereby lacking humility because it is SELF that they must rely on.

I don't believe in God, but also think its a gross arrogance of man to assume he's that special. The place man has in the universe is absolutely TINY and pretty insignificant. The common idea that life itself is actually rare isn't really known either, its probably really common among similar planets to Earth.. I said this in a previous post...

You're really putting all athiest's in the same boat there aren't you? You talk about athiesm as if its a faith and we all think the same way! Everyone has their own way of looking at things!
Lack humility? What the? Non-religious people are generally really nice, people are people. Maybe its just that you might come across as a bit condescending when talking to them, so they get a bit annoyed? HMM?

 

[Danoff]

Are you saying that some races of humans are less genetically evolved than others, and therefore are starving because of their genetic inferiority? Survival of the fittest? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying that Africans are less of an evolved race, and through natural selection, the genetically inferior genes will die out and not be passed along to future humans and our starvation problems will go away?

No. I clearly should have posted more explanation because I didn’t even come close to considering that what I said could be interpreted this way.

Natural select, and evolution has conditioned man to accumulate resources for survival and hold on to them. We have not been conditioned by nature to give away our food to help others – we have been taught to keep as much food as possible.

That isn’t to say that compassion doesn’t also serve a good purpose in nature – it does and people have it. But our first priority is always to ourselves. That’s natural, and that’s why people don’t go around giving their food to the starving masses.

I won't even comment on the "Fairness" reason

If I earn 10 bucks here in America and buy 2000 more calories with that 10 bucks than I need to survive, it is fair that I did so. No other person in any other country who is the victim of starvation has a right to my 2000 excess calories. It is fair that I keep the products of my labor and do with them as I wish. If I choose to have compassion and donate to the people of Ethiopia, so be it. If not, that’s still fair.

The unfair aspect of this is that nobody chooses what conditions they are born into. But that isn’t anyone’s fault and so doesn’t justify the theft of my food for the gain of others.


Bottom line – Men are greedy, and rightly so. Our primary concern is for our own sustenance… a trait born from natural selection and evolution. And it is fair that man keep the products of his efforts to do with as he chooses.

 

[Pako]

I don't believe in God, but also think its a gross arrogance of man to assume he's that special. The place man has in the universe is absolutely TINY and pretty insignificant. The common idea that life itself is actually rare isn't really known either, its probably really common among similar planets to Earth.. I said this in a previous post...

You're really putting all athiest's in the same boat there aren't you? You talk about athiesm as if its a faith and we all think the same way! Everyone has their own way of looking at things!
Lack humility? What the? Non-religious people are generally really nice, people are people. Maybe its just that you might come across as a bit condescending when talking to them, so they get a bit annoyed? HMM?

These are just examples from my own experiences. I try not to come across condescending or belittling of anyone (sometimes I slip or am misunderstood). I never said atheists are bad people. I know lots of good, morally sound, atheists who show compassion and Christ like values in many respects. Not sure when "Humility" was synonymous with "Nice". To be subservient to God, you have to humble yourself before the Him.

I'm putting all the atheists that I have spoke with in the same boat, yes. I might also add they have put strong emphasis on having faith or belief or whatever you want to call it, to science and/or the laws of the universe. A very common response I have heard is,

"I don't need a god to tell me...."
"I don't need a god to make me feel better......"
"I don't need a god to fix my problems....."
"because, I take care of all those things myself......"

You can't be self serving and humble to yourself.

Sorry if I am confusing the issue or not making my point clear enough. I hope this helps.

 

[Danoff]

You can't be self serving and humble to yourself.

Not true. But you can't be subservient and say the things you quoted above.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I try not to come across condescending or belittling of anyone (sometimes I slip or am misunderstood). I never said atheists are bad people. I know lots of good, morally sound, atheists who show compassion and Christ like values in many respects. Not sure when "Humility" was synonymous with "Nice". To be subservient to God, you have to humble yourself before the Him.

Your previous statement about atheist was about as accurate as me saying that all Christians are ignorant fools who do not accept the validity of any other religion and that they all believe in fairy tales.

"I don't need a god to tell me...." Yep
"I don't need a god to make me feel better......" You got that right
"I don't need a god to fix my problems....." That's right
"because, I take care of all those things myself......" Its called independence

You can't be self serving and humble to yourself.

err...it is being Humble towards others that actually counts Pako

 

[Pako]

Your previous statement about atheist was about as accurate as me saying that all Christians are ignorant fools who do not accept the validity of any other religion and that they all believe in fairy tales.

err...it is being Humble towards others that actually counts Pako

Sure does! And being greedy and fair results in +800 million people in the world to go hungry. Sure seems we got this "being Humble towards others" down. If we (as a race) would be more selfless and less selfish we could literally solve most of the world's problems. As long as we're looking out for #1, this will never happen. Don’t you agree?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Sure does! And being greedy and fair results in +800 million people in the world to go hungry. Sure seems we got this "being Humble towards others" down. If we (as a race) would be more selfless and less selfish we could literally solve most of the world's problems. As long as we're looking out for #1, this will never happen. Don’t you agree?

Well obviously I agree with that

I can have humilty and be humble without being religious, just as you can accept scientific hypothesis and still carry your faith

btw the hunger debate started because we wanted to know what it is that God actually does...he seems to just leave it to us, not very impressive for a supreme being...I don't want to flare it alll up again, but at the moment the hungry get UN helicopters and food packages, when it is rain that they need.

 

[Swift]

Well obviously I agree with that

I can have humilty and be humble without being religious, just as you can accept scientific hypothesis and still carry your faith

btw the hunger debate started because we wanted to know what it is that God actually does...he seems to just leave it to us, not very impressive for a supreme being...I don't want to flare it alll up again, but at the moment the hungry get UN helicopters and food packages, when it is rain that they need.

Well, ok. I don't really agree with that, but what about the people going hungry in the cities of America? There is plenty of food all around, but we're all to busy to give it to someone that needs it.

 

[Danoff]

If we (as a race) would be more selfless and less selfish we could literally solve most of the world's problems. As long as we're looking out for #1, this will never happen. Don’t you agree?

I don't agree that selflessness is the solution to the world's problems. Seflessness usually don't solve much at all - again due to human nature.

Looking out for #1 is fine as long as you're free. Too many people in the world are not free.

 

[Pako]

I don't agree that selflessness is the solution to the world's problems. Seflessness usually don't solve much at all - again due to human nature.

Looking out for #1 is fine as long as you're free. Too many people in the world are not free.

Human nature isn't an excuse, it's a choice. We're beyond primal instinct, we are self thinking individuals with freedom of choice. Selflessness would work if it was practiced by the individual on a global scale.

 

[Pako]

Well obviously I agree with that

I can have humilty and be humble without being religious, just as you can accept scientific hypothesis and still carry your faith

btw the hunger debate started because we wanted to know what it is that God actually does...he seems to just leave it to us, not very impressive for a supreme being...I don't want to flare it alll up again, but at the moment the hungry get UN helicopters and food packages, when it is rain that they need.

Well, if that's how you interpret it. I see God's hand at providing the food and we have to be good stewards and make sure everyone doesn't go hungry. You say God doesn't provide rain? See my prior posts, I'm starting to get dizzy running around in circles on this one. The food has been provided, we just have to distribute it but we continue to let +.8 billion people go hungry because of greed and selfishness. We are choosing to let these people go hungry plain and simple. I’m done with the hunger debate. It can't be explained any easier.

 

[Swift]

Well, if that's how you interpret it. I see God's hand at providing the food and we have to be good stewards and make sure everyone doesn't go hungry. You say God doesn't provide rain? See my prior posts, I'm starting to get dizzy running around in circles on this one. The food has been provided, we just have to distribute it but we continue to let +.8 billion people go hungry because of greed and selfishness. We are choosing to let these people go hungry plain and simple. I’m done with the hunger debate. It can't be explained any easier.

Very true. Nicely said and broken down Pako.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Well, if that's how you interpret it. I see God's hand at providing the food and we have to be good stewards and make sure everyone doesn't go hungry.

God didn't plant the seeds...man did.

You say God doesn't provide rain?

Not in Ethiopia or Mauritania.

Poor rains mean the famine in Southern Africa is likely to continue for at least another year, the UN says.

See my prior posts, I'm starting to get dizzy running around in circles on this one.

Me too

The food has been provided, we just have to distribute it but we continue to let +.8 billion people go hungry because of greed and selfishness. We are choosing to let these people go hungry plain and simple.

So once again...God does nothing...I thought so.

I’m done with the hunger debate. It can't be explained any easier.

Much easier to just let them grow the food themselves than to pollute the globe transporting it

Swift, you are beginning to sound like a sycophant.

 

[Danoff]

Human nature isn't an excuse, it's a choice. We're beyond primal instinct, we are self thinking individuals with freedom of choice. Selflessness would work if it was practiced by the individual on a global scale.

Nope. There is an inherent flaw in the nature of charity that causes its effectiveness to be limited. It is helpful in some instances but in most it does little to fix the problem.

Plus... human beings are not capable of being truly selfless on a "global" scale.

 

[Swift]

Swift, you are beginning to sound like a sycophant.

Nah, I just respect, agree and admire what Pako has said. I'm already a mod, so why would I be kissing up?

Besides, I'm not after glory for myself, but for God.

Oh, and that food that you say that God had nothing to do with...why is it that the rest of the world is able to produce enough food to feed the entire planet? Yeah, we just developed incredible means of cultivation and that's why we have so much food. Forget the fact that we need rain and good soil as much as the starving nations to produce food.

 

[skicrush]

God didn't plant the seeds...man did.

I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Who is it, exactly, that makes them grow?

And it's Gods fault that people insist on growing crops in areas that are OBVIOUSLY ill suited to the job? Why not grow where things grow well, and then spread the wealth?

 

[Famine]

Who is it, exactly, that makes them grow?

Does someone have to?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Who is it, exactly, that makes them grow?

Not who...but what makes them grow. The answer is photosynthesis, nutrients in the soil and of course water

And it's Gods fault that people insist on growing crops in areas that are OBVIOUSLY ill suited to the job? Why not grow where things grow well, and then spread the wealth?

I don't think this even deserves an answer.

 

[Danoff]

and then spread the wealth?

There's another phrase I hate. Just a nice way of saying I don't want to earn what I get.

 

[Swift]

There's another phrase I hate. Just a nice way of saying I don't want to earn what I get.

Right, we shouldn't give food to starving people because that would just be giving them what they didn't earn. I know that's not what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.

 

[Danoff]

Right, we shouldn't give food to starving people because that would just be giving them what they didn't earn. I know that's not what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.

It doesn't help to give them food as much as it would help if they moved the hell off of their infertile land, or if their government ended it's oppression.

We certainly shouldn't force people to give food to the starving - but charity is something that everyone has a right to participate in. It's just that charity's ability to do good is limited.

 

[Swift]

It doesn't help to give them food as much as it would help if they moved the hell off of their infertile land, or if their government ended it's oppression.

We certainly shouldn't force people to give food to the starving - but charity is something that everyone has a right to participate in. It's just that charity's ability to do good is limited.

That sounds just fine to me!