Requesting a new forum for non-Formula 1 Motorsports

[Hun200kmh]

1. Interludes, recently appointed as Super Moderator, has decided that all discussions about what he calls "Le Mans" (in which he includes the ALMS Series, the Le Mans 2011 race discussion up to the month when it will happen, and - if logic applies - should also include the ELMS and the ILMC discusions), and made clear that his decision is not to be discussed in the Motorsports forum or else warnings and infractions will be issued.



2. I don't want to write anything that can taken out of context, so, here are the above mentioned Super Moderator's three posts regarding this matter, in their entirety:

Right, I've noticed that a fair few threads have been cropping up discussing various aspects of Le Mans, ALMS and LMPs in general. Instead of dedicating one thread to each invididual piece of news (we don't even do that for Formula 1), I'm going to create one thread for discussion and merge everything into it. I apologise in advance if some of the posts are out of sequence; the way this works is that posts are arranged accoring to timestamp rather that by the thread they were originally in. As of now, the following threads are going to be merged into this one:

• Audi R18 Launched[*]ALMS 2011 Discussion[*]Toyota supplies LMP1 engine to Rebellion Racing

So please discuss all your Le Mans-related things here. When the race comes around again next June, we'll have a dedicated thread for it, but everything else should go here.

Sorry, but I didn't see any point in keeping them around. When a Formula 1 team gets a new engine supplier, we don't go creating a news thread on it, and Formula 1 discussions get considerably more traffic than Le Mans and ALMS. I don't see why there should suddenly be dozens of threads for individual Le Mans news.

Also, ALMS stands for American Le Mans Series. It goes in with the other geernal Le Mans news.

It's not hate. It's a lack of enough following to justify having a dozen Le Mans threads. Looking at the Formula 1 threads, you'll see stuff on the Singapore crash controversy, Ferrari's use of team orders, the driver transfer market, proposed regulations, and the Lotus-Lotus situation. All of them are major events in the Formula 1 world. Toyota supplying engines to an LMP1 team pales by comparison.

This is not open to negotiation or any further discussion. Please continue discussing the topic at hand: general Le Mans news. Any further posts debating the value of having one thread or several for Le Mans will be considered off-topic and deleted. Warnings and infractions may be issued accoringly.

3. Complying with the last - and bolded - part of his third post, I didn't try to negotiate anything, and didn't post anything that could be regarded as "further discussion" there.




4. However, this is the "Site Feedback" forum, so unless my understanding of gtplanet's rules is failing on me, here I can direct to the site owner and site administrators suggestions and feedback regarding the forums, their structure and the policies about thread creation, thread prefixes, etc.




5. So, trying to stay clear and within the rules I know I'm supposed to follow, I come here to ask directly to Jordan that he considers the creation of a subforum for Sports Cars racing (as we had before thread prefixes were applied to that forum section), seeing that, apparently, the "Sports Cars" thread prefix is now made useless to "filter" the motorsports forum (everything should be discussed in one thread alone), and considering that ...

- LE MANS (the Race)

- PEUGEOT SPORT's 2011 Race Car (still to be officially launched)

- PESCAROLO SPORT's rebirth

- ASTON MARTIN's 2011 bid, now as LMP1 chassis builders

- AUDI SPORT's 2011 Race Car (R18, just unveiled)

- The GT2 Class (Chevrolet, Ferrari's new 458 Race Car , Porsche, BMW, etc)


- The ALMS, and its teams

- The (E)LMS, and its teams

- The ILMC​

... can't be discussed in one thread. In fact, shouldn't be discussed in one thread. And that's what'll happen in Sports Cars continue to be discussed within the Motorsports forum.


6. Alternatively, and considering that it is possible that in the future the same kind of ruling is enforeced regarding the WRC and IRC events, teams, drivers ... the Touring Cars championships, teams, events and drivers ... the Rally - Raid events, teams and drivers ... and so on, maybe the correct decision would be to separate the Formula 1 forum entirely from the motorsport forum to a new F1-only forum. And leave the motorsport forum (without F1) working based on thread prefixes, as it was before this "one thread only" ruling for Sports Cars.

Thank you.

 

[Ardius]

I don't think any of this is neccessary. What if we get a thread/topic which overlaps? (which is frequently) Where should it go?

The motorsports part of this forum doesn't appear to get that much traffic as it is and doesn't produce that many threads that this kind of moderation and seperation is required. I have never felt it was ever cluttered with too many threads, in fact I have found it more frustrating that people have continually tried to stick everything in one thread.....

Leave the motorsports forum as is and don't force people into one thread. There is plenty of room for both F1 and other motorsports to exist in seperate threads without it being cluttered. Its a complete non-issue that has only appeared to have annoyed one person.

We also already have thread tags for people to filter the forum....if people only want to view Formula 1 threads, they can simply click for those tags...otherwise whats the point in the tags in the first place? It also smells as if some people didn't realise this.

To clarify my opinion:
-I think having only one thread to encompass one entire sport is rediculous, as Hun has pointed out.
-I don't see why this is an issue in the first place, there was never a problem before.
-I don't want to see seperated forums (I'm pretty sure it used to be like this, but the "Other motorsports" forum didn't get used very much, so made more sense to be combined with Formula 1).

The very reason before we moved to have a general motorsports forum was because people were only making 1 or 2 threads for LMS, Rally, etc. This continues to be the case, but its not a rule as interludes appears to be enforcing, it was simply a circumstance. There are many seperate threads for Formula 1 topics and while, yes, it is a more popular sport, it doesn't really hurt the forum at all to "allow" more than 1 thread for LMS or whatever. Like I said....a complete non-issue brought about for reasons beyond me.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The motorsports part of this forum doesn't appear to get that much traffic as it is and doesn't produce that many threads that this kind of moderation and seperation is required. I have never felt it was ever cluttered with too many threads, in fact I have found it more frustrating that people have continually tried to stick everything in one thread.....

Leave the motorsports forum as is and don't force people into one thread. There is plenty of room for both F1 and other motorsports to exist in seperate threads without it being cluttered. Its a complete non-issue that has only appeared to have annoyed one person.

...

To clarify my opinion:
-I think having only one thread to encompass one entire sport is rediculous, as Hun has pointed out.
-I don't see why this is an issue in the first place, there was never a problem before.
-I don't want to see seperated forums (I'm pretty sure it used to be like this, but the "Other motorsports" forum didn't get used very much, so made more sense to be combined with Formula 1).

...

There are many seperate threads for Formula 1 topics and while, yes, it is a more popular sport, it doesn't really hurt the forum at all to "allow" more than 1 thread for LMS or whatever. Like I said....a complete non-issue brought about for reasons beyond me.

I agree 100%.

I don't see a reason why pretty major news like the revelation of the Audi R18 should have to be stuck into one general news thread. The ALMS being stuck into the Le Mans thread doesn't seem great either. There's just too much of a chance of overlapping conversations and disorganization.

This sort of "thread convergence" takes away from the organization of the forum and shouldn't be taken to this extreme.


Here's the general Le Mans thread for reference.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This is not open to negotiation or any further discussion. Please continue discussing the topic at hand: general Le Mans news. Any further posts debating the value of having one thread or several for Le Mans will be considered off-topic and deleted. Warnings and infractions may be issued accoringly.

The reason why I said this was not because I did not want to discuss the issue. I did not want to discuss the issue in the thread, because it would be off-topic - but there were still plenty of other options available to you; private and visitor messages for one. I would have been happy to discuss it outside the thread, but no, everyone thought it would be appropriate to discuss it there despite my telling you not to.

Surely you can understand my logic on this one. Yes, there are several very active Formula 1 threads. And they relate to major events in the Formula 1 world: the Singapore crash controversy, the new engine regulations for 2013, Ferrari's team orders stunt, the two Lotuses situation, the driver market and so on. All of them are major episodes. Each thread has a dozen pages to it. By comparison, the Le Mans threads that have been created are not major events. The launch of the Audi R18 might be, but by comparison, Rebellion Racing getting a Toyota engine deal is not. It will, at most, get a page or two of posts and then slide into oblivion. By merging everything into one thread, it has kept the discussion alive. It is working, despite some people posting off-topic about the need for it to be one thread (which is what should be done here). And if the (technical) thread-starter, arvin charles - who is one of the most dedicated Le Mans followers in the subforum - wishes to, he can edit the thread title to inclue themost current topic being discussed in the thread.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Sorry interludes but I would never find appropriate to take what I think about this to you in PM or even visitor message. I understand many people do this and just checked your public profile and indeed noticed you are getting lots of Visitor Messages because of you actions as Super Mod. I can only guess the PMs. I have nothing against it of course, but then again, I wouldn't personally do it.

In this case, I would never do it also because there is no personal issue here and in no way what happened in the motorsports forum had anything to do with me (or any particular user).

In fact, It wasn't "user-related", but instead a "board-affecting" decision, the one you took. Directly related to what one could call the "policy" for that particular board/forum. And for a "regular member" (like me), there's only one forum to voice opinions and give feedback about such issues. This one.

This cleared, onto the question: Should issues such as:

- The 2011 ALMS Season preview

- The new closed-top LMP Audi

- Toyota's return to Sports Car Racing as engine supplier for a LMP1 car

- And all possible others up until JUne, when the LM24H will take place

... be discussed in ONE thread?

You think they should, I respect your opinion. And won't argue it with you, you're the super moderator, not me.

But I disagree, of course. I think Sports Cars discussions should be organized by topics and not mixed up in one only. So, I had two options:

a) To ask the higher powers to review your decision.

b) To avoid such thing and just ask the higher powers to divide motorsports discussions in two forums. One for F1, where you have no problems with multiple threads, one per team launch, one per Grand Prix, and several others to discuss the polemics generated by F1's politics in general and by Ferrari in particular (judging by the forum's activity last season). And one other for all the other forms of motorsports.

I chose option b). The other posters in this thread, apparently, would prefer option a). Whatever ... I'll make it short and simple: all I want is to discuss Sports Cars in threads that obey to the same logic that is followed in every gtplanet forum.

 

[Akmuq]

If the Toyota one wasn't it should have been in it's Le Mans series thread(sorry I only really follow the actual race,LMS and the ALMS).I'm just going to think for a minute. Oh wait we don't have that thread.Someone should make a intercontinental Le Mans thread and an Asian Le Mans thread.
Tho is how the threads should be in my opinion
. Le Mans general discussion
. Le Mans series discussion
. American Le Mans series discussion
. Asian Le Mans series discussion
Seperate ones for Audi and Peugeots new cars, but not the Toyota engine deal.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I understand many people do this and just checked your public profile and indeed noticed you are getting lots of Visitor Messages because of you actions as Super Mod.

For the record, they've mostly come from people who have had their threads closed and have objected to it, and are seeking further clarification. Most of the private messages I get are quite friendly in nature.

 

[Akmuq]

I think that posting on a mod's wall to give out to a mod publicly should be an infraction. If they have a problem with you for example then they should PM you.

 

[boiltheocean]

I don't see the problem with creating different threads for different news (no matter how big or small). We have tags to filter different disciplines of motorsport so it's never going to get cluttered.

Nobody is going to make a thread unless they feel the topic is worth a discussion yet by placing everything in a general thread you end up jumping between separate news items and trying to follow separate discussions within the same thread. It isn't practical.

 

[Car-less]

Nobody is going to make a thread unless they feel the topic is worth a discussion yet by placing everything in a general thread you end up jumping between separate news items and trying to follow separate discussions within the same thread. It isn't practical.

This I believe is Jordans opinion on the matter - I'm sure I saw a post to this effect when discussing a "general questions" type thread somewhere on the boards a while ago. I just cannot find it right now.

EDIT: I've found the post I remembered here, but it was actually mentioned by Duke rather that Jordan directly.

 

[Ardius]

Surely you can understand my logic on this one. Yes, there are several very active Formula 1 threads. And they relate to major events in the Formula 1 world: the Singapore crash controversy, the new engine regulations for 2013, Ferrari's team orders stunt, the two Lotuses situation, the driver market and so on. All of them are major episodes. Each thread has a dozen pages to it. By comparison, the Le Mans threads that have been created are not major events. The launch of the Audi R18 might be, but by comparison, Rebellion Racing getting a Toyota engine deal is not. It will, at most, get a page or two of posts and then slide into oblivion. By merging everything into one thread, it has kept the discussion alive. It is working, despite some people posting off-topic about the need for it to be one thread (which is what should be done here). And if the (technical) thread-starter, arvin charles - who is one of the most dedicated Le Mans followers in the subforum - wishes to, he can edit the thread title to inclue themost current topic being discussed in the thread.

I think ludes you need to stop over-moderating, the issue you are trying to portray isn't a real issue at all and you are hence creating a completely different issue.

I don't know why you feel the discussion needs to be kept alive, Rebellion's engine deal would only have attracted a few posts regardless of whether it was in a big general thread or its own thread. So thats not a valid reason to decide it should be merged with news about ALMS..

I don't see why a thread has to have big news, sure it has to have discussional value but thats quite subjective. Clearly you think Formula 1 has more discussional value than anything else simply because of popularity, but popularity is not necessary for intelligent discussion.

Would it have been so hard to simply ask some older members what we thought before you did it? I accept that its not necessary for a mod to ask, but it would have been a nice gesture at least.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Ok, I think no-reply is a reply also. I got it and I'm ok with it, but I don't like to keep checking this thread only to understand that it is destined to a silent drowning to the bottom of this page, followed by its dissapearance into page 2 and beyond. Without, as English speakers say ... "Closure".

So, since I opened it, I'll use my recently acquired powers to give it such "closure". With my own farewell speech.

It was an honest try to ask the site owner, the administrators and all super mods and mods to correct what I feel is a wrong decision. I have stated this already, I have nothing, never had and don't think ever will have, against the super moderator that issued the questioned decision. Quite the contrary, him and me have both years of writing and sharing thoughts in the motorsports forum, without ever having the slightest issue when in disagreement over anything motorsports-related. I think my intention was therefore clearly about the policy and not about the one that created it. And won't insist on this point.

And I stand by what I wrote, if all motorsports disciplines BUT Formula 1 are to be - under normal conditions - discussed in one thread, I think it would be better to make a new forum. BUT if a new forum is out of the question, than it is wrong to keep things as they are and the above mentioned decision/policy should be revised.

In these last few days a number of interesting news surfaced concerning:

- The R18, why Audi switched to a closed top car (I noticed interviews with McNish and Dr. Ulrich), and their line-up of drivers for the 3 cars entering the Le Mans 24 Hours 2011 Edition.

- ALMS shaping up to what appears to be a promising year.

- (E)LMS calendar was published (apparently the portuguese event will switch from Portimão to Estoril, for reasons still unknown)

- Johnny O'Connell left Corvette Racing after 10 years of enormous success.




Now, these are not earth-shaking news, I know. But:

Neither is this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=144134
(title: Volkswagen Group /Replies: 1)

or this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=140566
(title: Luca Badoer leaves Ferrari test role / Replies: 13)

or this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=139066
(title: Mark Webber had broken shoulder for last 4 races of season / Replies: 20)

or this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134256
(title: Bernie Ecclestone attacked by muggers in London / Replies: 11)

or this:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=138971
(title: "Car to blame" - Schumacher / Replies: 7)


Just to mention the litle pieces of news about F1 that didn't fit in the "main" threads (Driver Market / Team Orders / Singapore-Renault-Briatore-Piquet / Lotus vs Lotus mess ... just to name a few) and nevertheless found a very justified way to their own threads, with few replies yes, but read by many more than the ones replying.

One could say "well, the fact that nobody bothered to write about Dr. Ulrich, McNish, O'Connell, Estoril, ALMS, etc ... just proves that nobody really cares much about it and therefore many useless threads were avoided"

I don't believe this. I think that the one thread policy acts against the will to post and share news. I know it did in my case. "Why bother, it'll get lost" I thought many times.

True, the motorsports forum is in life-supporting mode at the moment, off-season and all, so one could also say "ANY post, in ANY thread will be noticed these days" ... maybe, maybe ... in any case, it also happenes that it goes against the nature of a veteran gtplaneter (can I say this?) to post in the same thread successive different news, from O'Connell to Estoril, from Ulrich to the Porsche that'll be used in GTC ALMS category. It would become the offtopicness in all its glory ... and confusional mess.


I'm closing this, in the full knowledge that mods/admins/ owner may write in it or even reopen it to public posting. But that will be their decision, not mine. Because, as far as I am concerned, this thread can definitively go to rest now. It's out of my hands, I did what I could and what I thought I should do.


So, this is what I think. Tried to avoid repeating myself in these last words hereby written. And I rest my case now.