Restoring My Beliefs

[Danoff]

Do they really?

They don't act like robots... They can do what they want at any time. Their brains are primitive, so their choices are predictable, but they're capable of choosing to do just about anything.

 

[FoolKiller]

Every time I see a religioin debate I tell myself I will stay out of it, but...

Of course, I believe not... there is a dichotomy you must face if you choose to believe that God is responsible for our free will, which is what I was hinting at earlier... if He did give us free will and hence the ability to sin, then why were we also then subsequently punished for using it?

In other words, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't (have free will)... with it, we are able to sin and thus cast out of the image of 'perfection' as attained only by Jesus Christ.

You mention Jesus in all this free will leads to sin and thus we get punished for something God gave us, but you forgot one key to that. The point of Jesus was so that he would carry the burden and so that we could say, "Sorry about that. Please forgive me."

It isn't a case of being an automaton or going to Hell. Free will, just like in a free society, carries with it the ability to accept the responsibilitiy of your decisions.

My government has deemed me capable to drive a car, but if I choose to act on that privelage while intoxicated I will be punished. God has deemed me capable of making my own decisions but if I choose to make the wrong ones I will be punished, unless I choose to be repentant, then I am forgiven over and over again.

 

[TwinTurboJay]

Going back to something famine mentioned, with last names. I was under the impression that it was the Romans themselves had 2 or three names, but other regions went by a first name and city or origin only.

Jesus of Nazareth,
Joseph of Arimathea
Saul of Tarsus ( before he was re-named Paul ), and so on...

 

[Danoff]

It isn't a case of being an automaton or going to Hell.

I think he's talking about some of the worldly suffering we endure as a penalty for original sin.

 

[FoolKiller]

I think he's talking about some of the worldly suffering we endure as a penalty for original sin.

Well his initial statement was that we are no longer immortal.

Therefore it seems counter-intuitive to suggest that the human race should be cursed or punished with the bane of mortality for possessing abilities that God himself gave us...

Going from that, any Christian who paid attention in Sunday School like a good boy can tell you that it isn't a physical death that we are saved from, and neither are our rewards physical, but we are given a spiritual immortality.

Which of course if you don't believe in an afterlife, can sound like a load of bollocks. So I explain it the best that I understand and leave it at that.

It is hard to defend the story of Adam and Eve on any level when I personally don't take it literally.

 

[Famine]

Going back to something famine mentioned, with last names. I was under the impression that it was the Romans themselves had 2 or three names, but other regions went by a first name and city or origin only.

Jesus of Nazareth,
Joseph of Arimathea
Saul of Tarsus ( before he was re-named Paul ), and so on...

Yet Mary Magdalene and Judas Iscariot (amongst others - but they're most prominant amongst "peers") have definable surnames - and it appears that there's some debate over whether the Anglicised "Jesus of Nazareth" actually means "someone called Jesus from the town of Nazareth" in the original texts...

 

[a6m5]

Chris: I'm not going to touch on that "perfection" subject, because I don't think I can answer it any better(or even close to) than the FoolKiller's post.

If you believe that God gave Adam (and by extension, us) free will, then it must also have been God himself who gave us the ability and desire to sin in the first place...Therefore it seems counter-intuitive to suggest that the human race should be cursed or punished with the bane of mortality for possessing abilities that God himself gave us...

It seems very strange to me that people choose to believe in a vengeful, even spiteful God who would do this. I for one do not believe for one second that our mortality was ever something that was 'given' or 'taken away'... human immortality is something that firmly dwells in the realms of fantasy/fiction... even conceptually it just doesn't work or make any sense.

I don't think it's that complicated, at least the way I look at it. We all know from right and wrong. Depending on how you interpret the Bible, you might think that one little lie can send you to hell, but I don't see it that way. Who doesn't break a rule or two from the Bible? Does that mean all Christians go to hell? I don't think so. I also don't believe that people go to heaven(or wherever) by belonging to certain Church. If you are concerned about people who stole, killed, raped, etc. Who cares about them? They had a choice, just like the rest of us. And if you are really sincerely sorry for what you've done, you can always ask for forgiveness and startover(no cheapshots at this, please. ).

P.S. You know I'm not preaching to you. These are just my personal take on the subject.
***Jeez. I see FoolKiller already answered this one, like, million times better than me too. Why did I even show up.

Yet Mary Magdalene and Judas Iscariot (amongst others - but they're most prominant amongst "peers") have definable surnames - and it appears that there's some debate over whether the Anglicised "Jesus of Nazareth" actually means "someone called Jesus from the town of Nazareth" in the original texts...

This is interesting. It's definitely worth looking into......

 

[Touring Mars]

Well his initial statement was that we are no longer immortal.

Going from that, any Christian who paid attention in Sunday School like a good boy can tell you that it isn't a physical death that we are saved from, and neither are our rewards physical, but we are given a spiritual immortality.

Which of course if you don't believe in an afterlife, can sound like a load of bollocks. So I explain it the best that I understand and leave it at that.

Are you suggesting that I wasn't paying attention at Sunday school?? Wait, I didn't even go to Sunday school But seriously, that is a good answer... you hit the nail on the head about the 'belief in an afterlife' bit... I guess that's what it boils down to.

It is hard to defend the story of Adam and Eve on any level when I personally don't take it literally.

That sounds pretty sensible to me, which is what I was getting at before... taken literally, it's almost impossible to take it seriously or defend, but allegorically you could argue (as you do successfully) that it has some merit worthy of debate...

I don't think it's that complicated, at least the way I look at it. We all know from right and wrong. Depending on how you interpret the Bible, you might think that one little lie can send you to hell, but I don't see it that way. Who doesn't break a rule or two from the Bible? Does that mean all Christians go to hell? I don't think so. I also don't believe that people go to heaven(or wherever) by belonging to certain Church. If you are concerned about people who stole, killed, raped, etc. Who cares about them? They had a choice, just like the rest of us. And if you are really sincerely sorry for what you've done, you can always ask for forgiveness and startover(no cheapshots at this, please. ).

Both good answers (yours and FK's)... 👍

 

[TwinTurboJay]

Yet Mary Magdalene and Judas Iscariot (amongst others - but they're most prominant amongst "peers") have definable surnames - and it appears that there's some debate over whether the Anglicised "Jesus of Nazareth" actually means "someone called Jesus from the town of Nazareth" in the original texts...

Very interesting...good info !

 

[FoolKiller]

Yet Mary Magdalene and Judas Iscariot (amongst others - but they're most prominant amongst "peers") have definable surnames - and it appears that there's some debate over whether the Anglicised "Jesus of Nazareth" actually means "someone called Jesus from the town of Nazareth" in the original texts...

Well, I have heard Mary Magdalene also referred to as Mary the Magdalene, whatever the hell that refers to.


EDIT: Found it here.

MADELEINE form of Magdalene, which means "of Magdala". Magdalene was the title of one of the characters named Mary (not the mother of Jesus) in the New Testament. She was from a village called Magdala.

As for Judas Iscariot:

One of the two main possibilities for the meaning of Iscariot is that it refers to the Sicarii, a faction of the Zealots, and hence the name Judas Iscariot would be fairly similar to Judas the Zealot. In turn, Judas the Zealot does not have a clear identity, but is usually thought to be either Saint Jude, or Simon the Canaanite; beginning in 3rd century Syrian tradition, it has been thought by some that Saint Jude is the same individual as Judas Thomas Didymus. Consequently there exists a reasonable possibility that Judas plays a far more significant part in the narrative, but that his identity has been blurred by referring to him in subtly different ways

<snip> (It later discusses the etymology)

What Iscariot signifies is unclear, other than its Greek suffix -otes, like English "-ite" or "-ian". No territory "Iscaria" has ever existed. A birthplace is sometimes offered at the Karioth that is mentioned only once, in a long list of cities in the time of Joshua (Joshua 15:25), concerning which The Classical Gazeteer tactfully remarked "of uncertain position" [4]. Karioth is not mentioned in any text of the centuries before or after Judas Iscariot. (Compare Cana and Arimathea.)

There are two major theories on the meaning of this name, each of which must satisfy certain expectations in order to be credible:

The first of the two main etymologies, which is the one accepted by the majority, and credited to Jerome, derives Iscariot from Hebrew &#1488;&#1497;&#1513;&#1470;&#1511;&#1512;&#1497;&#1493;&#1514;, Κ–Qrîyôth,1 that is "man of Kerioth", the Judean town (or, more probably, collection of small towns) of Kerioth, not otherwise related to any person or event in the New Testament, nor mentioned in any document of the period, but referred to in the book of Jeremiah. In a similar vein, &#1511;&#1512;&#1497;&#1493;&#1514; may be simply the plural of &#1511;&#1512;&#1497;&#1492; "small city," in which case we have something like "of the suburbs", i.e. it may be the case that Judas Iscariot is nothing more specific than the Jew from the suburbs. As Aramaic was the main language of the time, and all other New Testament characters have Aramaic surnames and nicknames, this Hebrew Judaean name could have marked out Judas as different from the Galilean disciples.
In the second main etymology, "Iscariot" is considered to be a transformation of the Latin sicarius, or "dagger-man". The Sicarii were a cadre of assassins among Jewish rebels intent on driving the Romans out of Judea. It is possible then, that this Latin name might have been transformed by Aramaic into a form more closely resembling "Iscariot". But many historians maintain that the sicarii only arose in the 40's or 50's of the 1st century, so Judas could not have been a member. Brown, Raymond E. (1994). The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave: A Commentary on the Passion Narratives in the Four Gospels v.1 pp. 688-92. New York: Doubleday/The Anchor Bible Reference Library. ISBN 0-385-49448-3; Meier, John P. (2001). A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus v. 3 p. 210. New York: Doubleday/The Anchor Bible Reference Library. ISBN 0-385-46993-4 (v.3). While Judas may or may not have actually been a sicariote, the term may have been used for him pejoratively. Therefore, if Judas is largely synonymous with Judean and if Iscariot means Sicarius, then Judas Iscariot would mean Judean Assassin.
In more fringe etymologies theory suggests that "Iscariot" could also be derived from the Aramaic sheqarya' or shiqrai, indicating a person who is a fraud; "the false one" would usually be written as ishqaraya. It could also have been derived from the Hebrew sachar. It also has been theorised that Iscariot could mean deliverer, derived from the Hebrew sakar (Hebraist Joel M. Hoffman's table of Hebrew and Greek names is helpful for understanding this sort of etymology). One factor arguing against "Iscariot" deriving from Judas' betrayal of Jesus is the reference in John 6:71 to Judas as son of Simon the Iscariot. In light of this, Iscariot appears to be a family name, or at least something that could be applied also to his father, which would make these fringe theories unlikely.

Whatever it means it still appears to relate to his origin or his actions.

 

[87chevy]

as to the Original Post:

I can completely understand not liking christianity. There's plenty not to like.

But, I do believe that there is something greater than us out there. I have a very strong faith in god. But god and only god. Not Jesus or mohamad or 200 different 'saint's and especially not the Pope.

Sounds to me like you want to believe in something. So believe in what you feel is right. Believing in a higher power doesn't mean you have to belong to a group or church.