Reverse Game Confirmed or highly probably in GT5 (or maybe not)!

[Strittan]

Those people are not qualified to give their opinion. Neither are the people that say the feature should be in GT. The only person qualified to give his opinion about the feature is Kazunori Yamauchi. He knows what should and what shouldn't be in GT, since he made the game.

I was going to give you crap about this post after the first sentence. But after reading the rest, I totally agree. 👍

+1

 

[alfy13]

The same except that I do provide examples and logical arguments to back it up.

I don't just say "Rewind roxors, GT needs it!"

That's just an opinion. Now if I back that up with examples and logical statemetns then it becomes an valid argument.



Yes and this is something I didn't touch on because if you can't show someone how broadening your market demographic can increase sales, then this is definitely too much to go into.

And you have a point, there are very likely some people who will be so mad at rewind they will boycott GT5.

But even without market research... I can confidently say that number is insignificantly small. I would think at most it would delay the purchase for many... kind of a strike if you will... but eventulaly most GT fans will break down and buy it especially since it's just an optional feature and not a change to the fundamental gameplay.

In this particular case, we know a lot of people find GT5 unapproachably frustrating or difficult. That is a large market to tap. It would take some pretty strong resistance from fans to offset gains from opening that market with angry GT fans who boycott the game.



Again you are isolating an issue and arguing it through with one point of view as if that covers all the bases.

What caused the player to be frustrated? Probably the same thing that gives the hardcore fans such enjoyment... the sheer difficulty of the experience.

So what makes it frustrating? For everyone I know who has tried GT and didn't like it, what was frustrating was the fact that for a learning driver, it's almost impossible to finish a race in anything but WAY last place (which is often a frustarting and degrading experience to watch the rest of the cars speed off into the distance with basically no chance to catch them) and this is almost always due to going off a corner or not being able to handle the car in a challenging situation. I have watched many a time when a friend is bogged down in a sandtrap watching the cpus speed off and a frustrated look plastered on his face and he just doesn't want to restart to meet the same fate again..

How would rewind help that?

Rather than basically having the race be over after going off a corner, you could try a few more times until you get it right, learn a bit in the process and continue on.

This makes the game accessible to lesser drivers becuase it is no longer a case of one mistake being enough to pretty much end your race.

.

Dude, why do you keep trying to convince me that this games needs rewind, when i told you, it doesnt bother me if the game has it.

You posted, that rewind would help marketshare for PD. Which you still have not posted, how you came up with that conclusion. This is why I am debating your logic. It really makes no sense at all.

But ONce again, you still have not shown any one here, how not having rewind would affect sales for PD.


All i hear from you is, how rewind is going to save the casual gamer world. Dude I get it, you love rewind.

 

[arvin charles]

Dude, why do you keep trying to convince me that this games needs rewind, when i told you, it doesnt bother me if the game has it.

You posted, that rewind would help marketshare for PD. Which you still have not posted, how you came up with that conclusion. This is why I am debating your logic. It really makes no sense at all.

But ONce again, you still have not shown any one here, how not having rewind would affect sales for PD.

You do realize he's not trying to convince you that the game needs rewind, in fact, he's explaining why rewind would be added to Gran Turismo.

As far as helping the market share for PD, I agree with him. If you have ever had to produce a product, you have to look at your target audience. So far, PD has done a great job at satisfying that core audience. So what's next? expanding it.

By looking at the demographics of people who buy video games, you can clearly see that the number supporting hard-core sim racing games pales in comparison to the rest of the gaming community.

So, the next logical step would be to appeal to the more casual gamers. Features like "auto brake" & "rewind" are just a part of that.

There are no actual numbers to support rewind's effect on sales, because it hasn't been implemented yet until very recently. The only numbers that could possibly show this are what industry researchers inside T10, PD & EA believe will be the projected sales.

For the record, I'm not exactly pro-rewind. But as a producer, I understand why developers are implementing it.

 

[cicohipe]

I just played Forza 3 today, and now i am unsure about the idea again :S.

I was all for it after playing Dirt 2, it worked really well in that game. But i don't think it works for Forza 3, i think it helps make the game feel arcadey. It also takes away from the intensity of a race as you know you can just fly into the corner without any regard for damage or flying off the track and then just replay it.

Again this worked perfect in Dirt2 but does not seem to work for Forza 3. I also hated how you are able to use it as many times as you like in Forza 3, and it takes you back in 5 second increments. Dirt's way that you can go back at any increment in proper rewind fashion is a much better way of implementing this feature.

To conclude, i was strongly for this feature before playing FM3 today.. and now i actually think that it could potentially damage the feeling of simulation in GT5..... i think this is one that PD may have to test abit and take some time to decide on.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

I just played Forza 3 today, and now i am unsure about the idea again :S.

I was all for it after playing Dirt 2, it worked really well in that game. But i don't think it works for Forza 3, i think it helps make the game feel arcadey. It also takes away from the intensity of a race as you know you can just fly into the corner without any regard for damage or flying off the track and then just replay it.

Again this worked perfect in Dirt2 but does not seem to work for Forza 3. I also hated how you are able to use it as many times as you like in Forza 3, and it takes you back in 5 second increments. Dirt's way that you can go back at any increment in proper rewind fashion is a much better way of implementing this feature.

To conclude, i was strongly for this feature before playing FM3 today.. and now i actually think that it could potentially damage the feeling of simulation in GT5..... i think this is one that PD may have to test abit and take some time to decide on.

^^ That's why I keep saying they should make it like in Dirt 2.

 

[FLASH48]

I'm just amazed how people played racing games before rewind! Gran Turismo Series has standard mode with all the assist you could want for causal players. I'm just not seeing how rewind is helping the causal player. And the causal player isn't going to practices with rewind! I don't know about anybody else, but when i practice i run the whole course!

 

[Exorcet]

And the causal player isn't going to practices with rewind!

...

I don't know about anybody else

Well, there you go.

 

[Devedander]

Dude, why do you keep trying to convince me that this games needs rewind, when i told you, it doesnt bother me if the game has it.

You posted, that rewind would help marketshare for PD. Which you still have not posted, how you came up with that conclusion. This is why I am debating your logic. It really makes no sense at all.

But ONce again, you still have not shown any one here, how not having rewind would affect sales for PD.


All i hear from you is, how rewind is going to save the casual gamer world. Dude I get it, you love rewind.

I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to explain to you why PD would make such a decision from a business standpoint. Arvin seems to understand what I am doing...

And I haven't explained to you how it will help sales? I have posted a small novela on why it would help sales... I keep trying to make it simpler and give you more examples and somehow you have totally missed them?

Let me try one more time... simpler yet again:

There are people who do not play (and thus do not buy) GT because the gameplay as it stands frustrates them.

These are people who are NOT buying GT, but if they WERE buying GT would be EXTRA sales which any business wants.

One of the major frustrating parts of GT is that the learning curve is very steep.

Rewind lets you take some of the bite out of that steep learning curve by letting you practice a corner until you get good enough to do it right without having to watch the computer completely dust you over and over in the process.

Removing this frustrating barrier for less skilled people might earn their business, thus increasing sales.

I really don't know how to explain it any more simply than that...

Well, there you go.

Exactly... you can't just go saying others won't do it that way because you wouldn't do it that way... as Exorcet pointed out "you don't know about others" pretty much sums up why you cant' make generalized statements about others behaviors.

People aren't going to reduce their gas mileage just to run AC on hot days!

I don't know about others but I wouldn't trade 3mpg just to be cool in my car in the summer!

See how that doesn't work?

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Genuinely interested, where is the evidence that GT is too hard as standard and it frustrates people? Lot's of statements in this thread without any evidence.

GT has sold a hell of a lot of , approx 40 million i believe, copies of a game thats too hard as standard?
Taking a look at game sales for Sony, Gran Turismo and Final Fantasy are both game that topped the sales charts. I have never been interested in playing Final Fantasy, i doubt i ever will. Is Final Fantasy a hard game as standard?

Unless they are making it easier for the American audience they are targeting.
Although, i'm still to be convinced rewind, as implemented in Forza 3, is actually going to make the learning curve any less 'steep'. The driving and braking line seems to do a good job already, although as others have pointed out, this 'line' can actually be detremental in the long run.

And as for pushing sales, how does Need For Speed Shift fit into this equation? Shift dropped rewind. Are we concluding that EA deliberately dropped rewind to damage sales, or was it because the genre of game Shift is aiming for should not include an arcade like feature such as rewind?

Just to confirm: (in case someone in PD is actually noting all our ramblings)

GT5 has never confirmed the inclusion of Rewind and the hardcore GT fans, and hardcore sim fans have voted in polls to make it clear that it is an unwanted feature within GT Mode.

Also, it is possible for a Hardcore GT Fan to not be a Hardcore sim fan. Some posts seem to find it difficult to comprehend that many fans love GT but dislike many of the 'Hardcore Sims' that it is compared to.

 

[Exorcet]

Genuinely interested, where is the evidence that GT is too hard as standard and it frustrates people? Lot's of statements in this thread without any evidence.

Well, I can't provide charts and graphs giving the general ideas of a population, but people I know have straight up told me that "games like GT are hard". I've seen people playing the GTHD demo in stores, and they just flounder around for a few laps running all over the place because they don't know how to drive. Driving like a drunk ape gives them a few laughs while they are there, but it doesn't convince them to buy the game.

Probably the biggest form of evidence though is stnd physics. There is absolutely no reason for it to exist other than to generate sales. It's a terrible learning device. It teaches you next to nothing about driving, especially where the pro option is right there. Stnd is only there to A) attract arcade racers and B) attract people who don't have the patience, desire, etc to learn how to drive.

 

[I-Runner]

Well, I can't provide charts and graphs giving the general ideas of a population, but people I know have straight up told me that "games like GT are hard". I've seen people playing the GTHD demo in stores, and they just flounder around for a few laps running all over the place because they don't know how to drive. Driving like a drunk ape gives them a few laughs while they are there, but it doesn't convince them to buy the game.

Since 1997 i've seen this situation .. but GT's increased its popuplarity too 👍

Probably the biggest form of evidence though is stnd physics. There is absolutely no reason for it to exist other than to generate sales. It's a terrible learning device. It teaches you next to nothing about driving, especially where the pro option is right there. Stnd is only there to A) attract arcade racers and B) attract people who don't have the patience, desire, etc to learn how to drive.

for many years i've read that GT is not simulative , is too easy ..
and many comparasions with other games (rfactor .. GTR and other)
etc etc

and NOW .. GT is so difficult to put this childish option ???

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Simply beginners will use rewind feature ,pro driver like I won"t use it so relax people!!! It"s good for beginners that could help them to learn to drive GT5... I newer use this feature in Race Driver GRID.

 

[arvin charles]

Since 1997 i've seen this situation .. but GT's increased its popuplarity too 👍

for many years i've read that GT is not simulative , is too easy ..
and many comparasions with other games (rfactor .. GTR and other)
etc etc

and NOW .. GT is so difficult to put this childish option ???

You're right, to experienced gamers, Gran Turismo has always been easy. I never thought it was particularly difficult. However, even though it's not the hardest sim, the fact is there are always people who will think GT's learning curve is pretty steep.

GT has never been as easy to jump in and play when compared to NFS or Mario Kart. I know many friends who won't buy GT because if you mess up on one corner, you can ruin your (multi-lap) race. That's especially frustrating if you're playing in a social situation against more experienced players.

And that learning curve only gets steeper with the introduction of damage...

Simply beginners will use rewind feature ,pro driver like I won"t use it so relax people!!! It"s good for beginners that could help them to learn to drive GT5... I newer use this feature in Race Driver GRID.

I agree with you. However, I think it's been a civil debate thus far...

 

[tibiquera]

I don't run gallop polls but from my perosnal experience and what I have read in terms of reviews and feedback from people who have used rewind, it's generally well accepted and liked exactly because it takes out some of the frustration that casual gamers experience.

It could be well accepted, but I wonder if it would be a deal breaker. I'm no Pachter, so I won't go any further.

Well no you don't expect double sales becusae many people own both consoles and wouldn't likely buy two copies.

But I see what you are saying. But there is a reason many games go multiplatform... it costs more for licensing, there is more work involved... so obviously cost is higher... and the result is most of the time return is worth it in terms of increased sales.

Rewind in GT is not really similar though and I will hve to say this analogy is a poor one to choose just because there are too many differences to make it effective at highlighting the similarities.

I wasn't necessarily talking about rewind, but the dangers of spending time and money in order to expand your audience. In some cases it worked, but in some it didn't. I think the main thing is to keep the same vibe, of feeling. If the game is able to keep that vibe while expanding, it usually does well. I'm just afraid that making GT easier for the masses could take that vibe away. So the solution is using new things (like auto-braking) that maintain the core of the game. In my opinion rewind would change the core of the experience, and that's why I'm not happy about it.

I loved Driver!

But I disagree with your reasoning as to why it failed.

I think it failed because while it was a king of one thing, a jack of all trades came along that happened to be darn near kingly in most trades. Driver tried to follow suite (as it had to becuase the competition was offering other features - notice a parallel here) and didn't impliment these features well.

Basically Driver eventually failed because the competition offered more, bigger and better and Driver tried to match the competition step for step and just couldn't. GT is in actually very similar to Driver in that it's done it's one thing really well, but suddenly the market is introducing competition that does that thing well as well as lot of other things well and appeals to a broader audience at the samme time. Like Driver I think GT needs to step up to match the competition lest it meet a similar fate to Driver. The difference being I have a lot of confidence PD won't go screwing up the features they impliment. I think very much like Driver they will match the competition almost step for step, but unlike driver they will find a way to do each thing at least almost as well if not better than the competition.

But you also have to remember if you don't embrace change and keep with the times, you become dated and stagnate.

I can see how that could happen. But I have to disagree that it takes it away... like I said I play a lot of games with God mode or unlimted ammo codes and what have you... and to use one would remove the challenge and thus the satisfaction of overcoming that challenge. The result? Even in the hariest of times, when I am about to die at the very end of a long difficult corrider of hard enemies... I don't use the codes. They are right there to use and I don't becuase I know what they represent and I don't want that.

You're right about Driver (great that you liked it. I feel good just thinking about how much fun I had). But I keep thinking to myself: if the game kept the same core experience as opposed to try to be a GTA rip off, wouldn't it have done better? That relates to what I said about the "vibe" of the game (I know it's a bad term, but I can't think of anything better). It's true the game has to go forward, but in the Driver case, wouldn't it be better to expand on other things, but keep the same core gameplay?

As for GT, I do agree the series can't stop in time. But I don't agree that it must implement rewind in order to go forward. I think it's doing a great job in that regards by hopefully implementing day/night cycles and weather, and implementing WRC and Nascar, GTTV, online, 16 cars per race, etc. And by adding auto-brake, driving line, and easier tracks for beginners, it's also making sure beginners can enjoy the game without too much pain. And ultimately, I too was a noob (as all of us once were), but the licenses have helped me greatly at improving my virtual driving skills. And the challenges and some of the licenses with its ghost helped me learning the tracks and how to nail each corner.

So I feel that if you are worried about succoming to something that will ruin the game for you, the problem isn't the game, it's your willpower and true inner desire.

I think it's wrong to think that if rewind takes away the tension of the race then it's my fault. I really wished I had a rewind button in real life, but unfortunately I don't. It's up to the game to create that feeling, and if it fails, it's the game's fault, not mine. For example, I always try to drive the game properly, but sometimes in GT4 if I was losing I would cheat (like cutting chicanes). I'd really wish the game punished me for doing that, because that's what would happen in real life. It's not that I have low will-power, it's the case my desire to win is even greater. It's part of racing to try to cheat all the time (I'm sure a few f1 drivers come to mind), but it's also part of racing to impede drivers from cheating.

 

[alfy13]

I am not trying to convince you, I am trying to explain to you why PD would make such a decision from a business standpoint. Arvin seems to understand what I am doing...

And I haven't explained to you how it will help sales? I have posted a small novela on why it would help sales... I keep trying to make it simpler and give you more examples and somehow you have totally missed them?

Let me try one more time... simpler yet again:

There are people who do not play (and thus do not buy) GT because the gameplay as it stands frustrates them.
These are people who are NOT buying GT, but if they WERE buying GT would be EXTRA sales which any business wants.

One of the major frustrating parts of GT is that the learning curve is very steep.

Rewind lets you take some of the bite out of that steep learning curve by letting you practice a corner until you get good enough to do it right without having to watch the computer completely dust you over and over in the process.
?

So bascially your saying, Rewind will let causal player feel better, because they can rewind 1000 of times, until they get that corner right?

But you still havent explained to me, how Rewind changes the driving phyics. It only corrects the mistakes, but the driving phyics is still their, which causes the person to be frustrated in the first place. If they havent learned how to adapt to the driving phyics in this game, they will always be frustrated .

You keep telling me, that I am isolating just to driving phyics, but order to use rewind, you must of been driving right? Unless rewind is some mini game, that I didnt know about.

I Just dont see how a person would be less frustrated with the game, with or with out that option. Because once again, let me explain it, that a 4 year old would understand, Rewind only corrects mistakes, doesnt change how the game plays.


Just like TUrn 10 said, this rewind option is for you to use, but it doesnt change how the game plays. If the person didnt like how the game plays in the first place, rewinding until they do, will never change their mind. I didnt buy forza 3 because it had rewind, I didnt buy it because I didnt like the demo, and felt like forza 2 a game that I own.


I understand that you are a casual player, who wants GT5 to fit your needs "the casual market" . But what I dont undestand is, unless you have STocks with PD, why are you worrying if they are going to lose sales? I highly doubt that PD is worried about that. They will sale millions, regardless if rewind is in the game.

But to be honest I really dont care any more. Reason is, I am debating with ppl who actually think One Option called Rewind (which doesnt change the gameplay )is going to determine if a person is going to buy this game or not.

If you ask a person why didnt they buy GT5, I bet they wouldnt say, oh because it didnt have rewind option. Most likely they will say , just wasnt my type of game for what ever reason.

And if their is a person didnt buy this game just because it didnt have rewind. Then they must didnt look to see what this game has to offer. Because if a person is buying a racing game, just for rewind option (which I dont see any one buying a game just for this option) then its good that they didnt buy it. Because its pretty evident, they are buying racing games for the wrong reasons.

So PD probably lost that 1% of ppl (that you keep thinking exist) who only buys games just for the rewind option, which I dont see them worrying about. Because they make more money on the 99% of the gamers who buy racing games to race. Devander, I admire you for trying to save the world for the casuals. But unless your a casuals your self, I just dont see why you feel you need to be their hero. They will buy this game on their own choice.

 

[I-Runner]

You're right, to experienced gamers, Gran Turismo has always been easy. I never thought it was particularly difficult. However, even though it's not the hardest sim, the fact is there are always people who will think GT's learning curve is pretty steep.

it's a merely question of "will" ..only , i remember my first contact with GT ..
i spent one hour to obtain a bronze in a GT2 licence test.. i didn't give up ...

That's especially frustrating if you're playing in a social situation against more experienced players.

I think that racing against experienced players could be the motivation
that push me to do better .. improving myself for the next time ..

But i'm not frustrated .. absolutely not .. I'm not a child .. at the end !

I-R

 

[irnbrutwinturbo]

Alfy13, I too am against rewind in GT5, but you really need to read over and think before you post. Devedander is logical and quite clear in what he is saying, his opinion wether I agree or not, is clear. Your argument gave me a headache, if English is your second language I apologise, but your post isn't very clear.

Maybe read over what Devedander has written again, then think carefully before you reply. Devedander will have a field day disecting your last post. I'm sure you have a good point to make.

 

[NBH]

This is the problem with games that have several versions spanning years. People get very good at them. In the past the game was played purely off the disc so the game had to be balanced to cater for everyone from beginners up to experts. I think GT5 is adding features to help beginners and the people who want a really tough challenge will play online against suitable opponents. Just like people who are very good at COD don't play through the single player again and again, they play online against other people with similar skills. The online part of GT5 hopefully means that everyone will be able to find a race that challenges them and when playing online, rewind won't be an option.

 

[Devedander]

Genuinely interested, where is the evidence that GT is too hard as standard and it frustrates people? Lot's of statements in this thread without any evidence.

Well am tempted to say it's too common sense to need graphs or polls to prove (kind of like saying "please show me some data that many people find driving an indy race car competitively too difficult).

But if you even look around these forums, there is no shortness of the elitest attitude that GT is the very challenging and it runs to the point that many members would point friends towards other games with the knowledge that GT would be out of their league.

Personal experience shows me that there are plenty of people who find GT to have too steep a learning curve... Just in my circle of friends I know quite a few people who don't play GT because it's just a frustrating experience.

If you really don't believe GT is challenging enough that there are people who don't buy it simply because of it's difficulty... well I don't know what to say... I honestly thought it was kind of a given.

for many years i've read that GT is not simulative , is too easy ..
and many comparasions with other games (rfactor .. GTR and other)
etc etc

and NOW .. GT is so difficult to put this childish option ???

It is entirely possible to be too difficult for many and also too easy for many at the same time. Especially if you are crossing platform boudaries and marketing demographics (PC gamers vs Console gamers have a lot of overlap, but their niche markets tend have a lot of differences).

In fact it is exactly the fact that there are people who find GT too hard and GT too easy that shows that GT has potential market untapped. By putting in things that give what either party wants, GT could gain those markets. Even better offer something for both markets (ie options to help lesser skilled drivers like auto brake and rewind as well as options to make the game more challenging like a professional physics option and damage).

It could be well accepted, but I wonder if it would be a deal breaker. I'm no Pachter, so I won't go any further.

That's not a question that can be answered yes or no. For some it could well be a deal breaker, for some it might not matter at all, for some it could be a put off. It's like asking "If we put brussel sprouts on the menu will people like it?". Some will, some won't, some won't care.

I wasn't necessarily talking about rewind, but the dangers of spending time and money in order to expand your audience.

Yes and as I said it's definitely something to address. I think it's pretty safe to say there is a large casual gamer market out there that is untapped by GT so far, and also safe to say that the majority of GT fans will not abandon GT regardless of options aimed towards lesser drivers as long as the ability to play the challenging game they are used to is also included. ie rewind won't chase them away as long as professional physics and the ability to turn off/not use driving aids is available.

But I keep thinking to myself: if the game kept the same core experience as opposed to try to be a GTA rip off, wouldn't it have done better? That relates to what I said about the "vibe" of the game (I know it's a bad term, but I can't think of anything better). It's true the game has to go forward, but in the Driver case, wouldn't it be better to expand on other things, but keep the same core gameplay?

Anythings possible but I think driver was in a lose lose situation. Being a one trick pony with an awesome trick is a double edged sword and that's where driver was. Eventually no matter how great, people will have gotten all they want of your trick and it will be time to turn to a new interest. I don't think driver could really have taken the core gameplay of driver much farther (at least in a manner that allowed to keep releasing good games often enough to stay in businness).

I think they were in a bad position where people were looking for more tricks than they had and the competition was doing more tricks really well. They had to try expanding becuase their one trick just wasn't gonig to cut it anymore, and to put it frankly as you know, they didn't do a very good job of it.

As for GT, I do agree the series can't stop in time. But I don't agree that it must implement rewind in order to go forward.

At this point I don't think you can say it must get rewind to move forward. Just like it doesn't NEED WRC or NEED NACAR to move forward. There are plenty of options to move forward and no one of them is really necessary as long as GT does SOMETHING to move forward and does it well.

But that said, you have to remember GT doesn't exist in a vacum and relative progress is as important as abosolute progress. What I mean is that if GT was the only game in town, any improvement would be noteable. But with competition showing other improvements, not having those improvements could easily be considered a failure and damaging.

I think it's wrong to think that if rewind takes away the tension of the race then it's my fault. ... It's not that I have low will-power, it's the case my desire to win is even greater.

It is acually quite literally your fault and not the games fault. As you see above, you find the problem isn't the game, it's your desire to win. What stands between you and what you want is a fault in your own control of desires.

I think we have become accustomed to GT taking care of this for us, now that it may no longer take care of keeping your desires in check for you, it's easy to blame the game, but really, it's always been you that was the problem, before the solution just came from outside.

As I said, I don't use God codes despite my desire to win.. I have learned to keep that desire in check and thus have rectified that fault.

It's important to remember what "it's my fault" really means... a fault is a failure in something and if you fail to keep your desires in check, the fault is in you. It has a very negative intonation, but it can very much just be an obvservation.

So bascially your saying, Rewind will let causal player feel better, because they can rewind 1000 of times, until they get that corner right?

But you still havent explained to me, how Rewind changes the driving phyics. It only corrects the mistakes, but the driving phyics is still their, which causes the person to be frustrated in the first place. If they havent learned how to adapt to the driving phyics in this game, they will always be frustrated .

You should really listen to turbo's advice...

But I will try again...

How will rewind change the game physics?

It won't.

Does that mean people are doomed to be forever frustrated because the gamme never gets easier?

Well... are you now better at GT than when you first played? I would think the answer is yes?

Is that a result of GT's physics getting easier? I would think no.

So how come you are better? I will bet it's large part practice isn't it?

What does rewind do? It lets you practice efficiently and easily while alleviating the frustration of being completely dusted for making a mistake.

I Just dont see how a person would be less frustrated with the game, with or with out that option. Because once again, let me explain it, that a 4 year old would understand, Rewind only corrects mistakes, doesnt change how the game plays.

Unfortunately your kind gesture of simplifying the explanation is wasted because... you're wrong.

Rewind doesn't correct anything.

The player changing how they play corrects things.

Remember, rewind lets you do it again, but in the end you still have to do it right.

Does practicing the piano make pianos work in a different way? No... it makes you better at it and thus less frustrating and difficult. And just like racing, practicing only the part of a song that is giving you problems is probably going to be more efficient and less unpleasant than being forced to go through the whole thing just to try that one part agian.

I highly doubt that PD is worried about that. They will sale millions, regardless if rewind is in the game.

If you don't think Sony and PD are constantly considering sales, you are sadly mistaken. They are a business, they have invested at least an estimated $60 million dollars in this product (I would actually have guessed more) their is no way they aren't concerened about capturing sales.

If you ask a person why didnt they buy GT5, I bet they wouldnt say, oh because it didnt have rewind option. Most likely they will say , just wasnt my type of game for what ever reason.

Because if a person is buying a racing game, just for rewind option (which I dont see any one buying a game just for this option) then its good that they didnt buy it.

You keep saying that... people woudln't buy a game just because it has rewind... I didn't say they will buy it for rewind (as in "I am going to the store today and will buy a game with rewind!) I said that if they have been shying away from the difficulty and frustartion of playing GT before, options that help remove those frustrations (like rewind) may help them stop avoiding GT for fear of a frustratinng and not fun experience.

Mulligans do it for golf, taking back a move does it for chess... rewind can do it for a racing game.

You make these long chains of assumptions as if each is fact to get yourself to your desired destination... (ie a person would do this, then they would do that, the reason they would do that is this) and at best those assumptions may be true of some people, but can't be made to represent all people as you use them to in your arguments.

If you really want to debate, you will need to open your mind to consider what the other person says before disputing it...

 

[Lain]

Ok, I used to be a casual supporter of rewind being added to GT5... but today, after letting a younger friend play Forza 3 on my Xbox... I now strongly think rewind should be added.

If it weren't for rewind, he would've put the game down after a race or two. But rewind allowed him to play the game and enjoy it even though he hasn't fully gotten the driving thing down pat.

 

[mr_VOLCANO]

Cant understand why this thread is still popular. If you dont like rewind, dont use it Just because gt is a sim doesnt mean casual players dont enjoy some driving aids.

 

[IsmokeGT]

...

This mug will die defending rewind! (sweet quote Deve)

Im with mrVolcano, who cares? Personally, I cant wait to do a 45min lap around the 'ring' rewinding every corner to get it just right, just to forget everything I 'learned' after the immense amount of time I spent trying to perfect every turn.

 

[Lucas]

This mug will die defending rewind! (sweet quote Deve)

Correction: you will die bashing rewind (with no logical reason, if I may add).

Oh, well. At least we two may get it, and we will be happy. Along with thousands of other players.

 

[IsmokeGT]

Correction: you will die bashing rewind (with no logical reason, if I may add).

Liar, Liar, pants on fire...
I never bashed Rewind.
Talk about illogical- Trolling, looking for my post, then saying I "bashed" something when it never happened.

A huge to Codename L

 

[turbomp301]

But if you even look around these forums, there is no shortness of the elitest attitude that GT is the very challenging and it runs to the point that many members would point friends towards other games with the knowledge that GT would be out of their league.

Personal experience shows me that there are plenty of people who find GT to have too steep a learning curve... Just in my circle of friends I know quite a few people who don't play GT because it's just a frustrating experience.

In response to the first sentence: please back that up, and if your referencing the "my dear friend" post I made on this thread then the point I was making went right over your head. But you could be talking about something else so please fill me in.

In response to your second sentence: If your friends find it fustrating, try telling them to SLOW DOWN and learn to drive slow and in control. Then, they can gradually increase their speed. A noobie GT'r usually needs "slow in, fast out" drilled into their brain.

When I sit someone down to play GT for the first time I always tell them to drive it like a real car and pay attention to their MPH.

 

[IsmokeGT]

I was going to McDonalds, and I didnt like the way I went from 39th street on to Grand Central... so I put my car in reverse and did it again!

Rearding GT being to difficult- I think a lot of people have trouble playing a video game and not being able to hold the throttle wide open. My 5 year old car do a lap staying on the track (if I do the gas and brake for him) Now when his foot hits the gas pedal, that is a different story.

 

[Seismica]

Once you learn the basics, GT isn't that hard, especially on standard physics. Ease the steering wheel round a corner, don't use full lock (D-pad users, you're in for a hard time). Ease the throttle on and off. Don't jam for foot/finger on the throttle until you are in a straight line out of a corner, at least until you are used to modulating the throttle properly. Don't keep the throttle down when changing gear, it causes your wheels to spin, you have to lift off for a split second. If you are using pedals, practice the heel toe technique, it not only makes you faster, but it makes your turn in easier too.

Sure some of those things are advanced/only really make a difference with pro physics, but once you learn all of these techniques you can focus on perfecting your lines with a variety of different cars on each track.

The licenses as a learning tool in themselves, are very limited. As a learning tool, rewind is also very limited.

The line on the track however, i think is extremely useful for beginners. Rewind is no help if they don't know how to get around the corner in the first place, it just means they will fail time and time again. The line tells you when to turn in, when to brake, when to start getting back on the throttle etc. Its just more useful in general.

But thats my opinion.

 

[tibiquera]

I think it's pretty safe to say there is a large casual gamer market out there that is untapped by GT so far, and also safe to say that the majority of GT fans will not abandon GT regardless of options aimed towards lesser drivers as long as the ability to play the challenging game they are used to is also included. ie rewind won't chase them away as long as professional physics and the ability to turn off/not use driving aids is available.

Well, considering GT's sales over the years I'd be comfortable saying they have done a superb job at reaching casual gamers. With an average of ~ 10 million units per iteration, it's quite obvious they can't all be hardcore. But I get your point and what you're trying to say.

But that said, you have to remember GT doesn't exist in a vacum and relative progress is as important as abosolute progress. What I mean is that if GT was the only game in town, any improvement would be noteable. But with competition showing other improvements, not having those improvements could easily be considered a failure and damaging.

I agree with you on it, but I have just one small problem with it: I don't think rewind would necessarily be one of those "improvements" you mentioned. And for the most part, when talking about improvements, GT has usually been the game that sets the bar. So considering the new features I mentioned before, I don't think it's getting stagnate.

It is acually quite literally your fault and not the games fault. As you see above, you find the problem isn't the game, it's your desire to win. What stands between you and what you want is a fault in your own control of desires.

I think we have become accustomed to GT taking care of this for us, now that it may no longer take care of keeping your desires in check for you, it's easy to blame the game, but really, it's always been you that was the problem, before the solution just came from outside.

As I said, I don't use God codes despite my desire to win.. I have learned to keep that desire in check and thus have rectified that fault.

It's important to remember what "it's my fault" really means... a fault is a failure in something and if you fail to keep your desires in check, the fault is in you. It has a very negative intonation, but it can very much just be an obvservation.

What I'm saying is: imagine a type of race championship where there was no rules against cutting chicanes. Do you think the drivers would avoid cutting the chicane, even if if meant being slower, because that's how you're supposed to drive? No, they'll go ahead and cut the chicanes, and it's not their fault, but the organizers of the event that allowed a loophole in the rules. Drivers are there to win, and will do anything within the rules (and sometimes even outside the rules) to win. It's not that they have low willpower, but they simply are there to win.

That's the same case as me. I'll do anything I can to win. It's up to the game to prevent me from using dirty tactics. If the game allows me to ride along the walls, hit leading cars at great speed, cut chicanes, crash at high speeds without consequences (all things that happened in previous GT games), then it's the game's fault. That's the main criticism GT had for not having damage before, the problem that it allowed you to be reckless with no consequences. It's not my fault that I race on Nurburgring not worrying that I could crash, if the game has no damage. And that's not my fault if I race not worrying that I could crash because I have the option to rewind.

 

[Devedander]

Well, considering GT's sales over the years I'd be comfortable saying they have done a superb job at reaching casual gamers. With an average of ~ 10 million units per iteration, it's quite obvious they can't all be hardcore. But I get your point and what you're trying to say.

Certainly PD has done a good job capturing a sales and the numbers back it, but I don't think there aren't MORE sales to be made and more potential buyers to attract.

I agree with you on it, but I have just one small problem with it: I don't think rewind would necessarily be one of those "improvements" you mentioned.

It's not the kind in terms of being the same part of the game (ie more race classes is not the same kind as driving assists) both are improvements that move the game forward but definitely in different manners or areas. There is not just one thing that improve any game.

What I'm saying is: imagine a type of race championship where there was no rules against cutting chicanes. Do you think the drivers would avoid cutting the chicane, even if if meant being slower, because that's how you're supposed to drive? No, they'll go ahead and cut the chicanes, and it's not their fault, but the organizers of the event that allowed a loophole in the rules. Drivers are there to win, and will do anything within the rules (and sometimes even outside the rules) to win. It's not that they have low willpower, but they simply are there to win.

Well now we get complicated with this analogy because as close as it is, it's actually different in a suttle but complex way...

In one you talk about the damage of the race by virtue of lack of a rule, in another you are talking about damage to your experience due to an action you choose to take or not.

The difficulty in disecting and explaining this on a forum is such that I will hope that my next part helps you understand specifically the part that pertains to you so I don't have to delve into the detail of comparing the two..

That's the same case as me. I'll do anything I can to win. It's up to the game to prevent me from using dirty tactics. If the game allows me to ride along the walls, hit leading cars at great speed, cut chicanes, crash at high speeds without consequences (all things that happened in previous GT games), then it's the game's fault. That's the main criticism GT had for not having damage before, the problem that it allowed you to be reckless with no consequences. It's not my fault that I race on Nurburgring not worrying that I could crash, if the game has no damage. And that's not my fault if I race not worrying that I could crash because I have the option to rewind.

Here we have a complex situation, you have two desires:

Win

Not use rewind

Now we must look at who's fault it is if one of your desires overcomes the other.

Well... you are in full control of the situation, no one is forcing you in any direction and it's entirely your choosing. So which ever thing happens (rewind or not rewind) the choice was entirely yours.

If you make the choice, the fault cannot be somewhere else.

Now I understand how you would feel it's someone elses fault because they didn't prevent you from doing something... but think about that logic for a second and see if it really rings true...

No one stopped me from doing this, thus the fact that I did it of my own free will and choice in a moment of weakness is someone elses fault.

Does that really make sense?

As I said, we are in a society (pretty much worldwide) where we get comfortable assigning fault to others for not watching out for us. Basically if YOU don't protect me from me, it's your fault for my actions!

That feels good and is an easy flaw in logic to make, but really, unless someone forces you to do soething it's your fault for doing it. And no one forces you to use rewind if you don't want to.

Think of it like this, let's say you don't like eating fatty foods and candy because it makes you feel bad and bloated (analogos to rewind making you feel guilty or bad for using it) and as your roommate, every time I see candy or fatty food around the house, I throw it away for you.

But one day I stop doing that. I leave the candy or fatty food out as an option to whoever comes by. I don't force someone to eat it, I don't push it on anyone, it's just there if you choose to take some.

Now you see it and NOMNOMNOM it's all eaten... crap you say!! I didn't want to eat that but my desire to eat sweats overpowered my desire to be healthy!!! This is your fault for not protecting me from myself!

You see as I said, we have become accustomed to blaming others for not protecting us from ourselves. When the choice is yours to make and you succumb for whatever reason, it's not someone elses fault for not stopping you, it's your own fault for doing it.

Now a quick touch on the racing chicane thing above, that's more complicated because you are dealing with rules set in place and decisions on how to abide by those rules. By definition a fault is an error in something, and if you are abiding by the rules when you cut a chicane, there is nothing wrong being done, thus there is no fault. It can't be someones fault becuase there is no fault, everything is happenign as it's supposed to.

The difference between the two situations (and again this is very complicated and subtle so hard to explain) is that in one case you are talking about an action being at fault, and in the other you are talking about how you feel about an action and the fault behind that.

When youd don't break any rules in a race, there is no fault so no one is at fault in respesct to damaging the race.

When you do something you don't want to do, regardless of whether someone could have put a rule in place to stop you from doing it or not, then the fault that you feel bad comes from your choice to do it, not the lack of a rule that prevents you from doing it and this fault is entirely in respect to how you feel about doing something.

I really think there must be a better way to illustrate the difference there, but at the moment I can't really think of a way to do it so hopefully ou see what I am saying?

I know you will say "but how can he win if he doesn't do what he doesn't want to do?" The answer... he probably can't... but there in again lies the source of the fault, the desire to win vs the desire to do it how you want.

Let's replace racing with having premarital sex... if there is no rule against it (we will ignore the church for a moment) but you will feel bad if you don't wait till your wedding night, how can you enjoy having sex now without ruining your virginity for your wedding night? The answer is you can't.

So if you then choose to have sex, who's fault is it? Is it the governemnt or the police for not stopping you? No it's your fault for choosing to do so.

Same with the racer and cutting the chicanes... it's no ones fault but his that he feels bad about his actions, despite the fact that someone COULD have put a rule in place about it.

So I hope you can see where I am going here... in the end using rewind is your choice, just because someone else isn't stopping you from doing it doesn't make it any less your choice and thus any problems that arise from it, are no ones fault but your own for making that choice.

It feels good to blame others for not protecting us from ourselves, but if you are really honest with yourself, you will see that the choice really is yours and if you fail to stop yourself, that's your fault, not someone elses.

Ironically the expectation and need for us to have others protect us from our own decisions and desires is a fault fairly common in humans and again, I don't say it in a negative blaming way, I say it in an observtory way.

 

[Lucas]

I never bashed Rewind.
Talk about illogical- Trolling, looking for my post, then saying I "bashed" something when it never happened.

A huge to Codename L

Oh, yeah?

Personally, I cant wait to do a 45min lap around the 'ring' rewinding every corner to get it just right, just to forget everything I 'learned' after the immense amount of time I spent trying to perfect every turn.

I was going to McDonalds, and I didnt like the way I went from 39th street on to Grand Central... so I put my car in reverse and did it again!

Then what do you call this? To me, it sounds like you are bashing the feature with no reason whatsoever. And I am the troll? What planet do you come from, mate? It seems that everyone who disagrees with you on this forum is a troll. Oh, and regarding that bit of your son playing GT: it seems a lot of people have trouble not pressing a button in a video game.



A huge to IsmokeGT. I can play that game too. For the sake of my "reputation" (if I have any) here, I'd rather not continue playing it.