RIDOX Replica Garage-In Memory of TurnLeft-GT40,300ZX,F430,TVR,AEM S2000,Cizeta,TransAm Doug Nash

[Thorin Cain]

Lamborghini Aventador SV replica has been updated, added Lamborghini Drove Mode Suite, complete with torque split/Haldex IV system + damper + ESP mode using GT6 aids. Please read the added update notes.

Hey there. I see you've been doing a spot of updating . And I must say...I never thought I'd see the day when a Ridox Replica had instructions to use TC and ABS .
The level of attention to detail, however, doesn't surprise me in the slightest .

 

[OdeFinn]

Hey there. I see you've been doing a spot of updating . And I must say...I never thought I'd see the day when a Ridox Replica had instructions to use TC and ABS .
The level of attention to detail, however, doesn't surprise me in the slightest .

But true driver do everything to get all aids off, in game and in real-life.. I just pray for easy solution to get off my work car ESP, lightening it is not enough, pulling ABS fuse won't give good results as it fails haldex5 on that point, and haldex refuses to lock center.. Have to be happy for 50:50 continuous ratio and once a while cuffing annoying lightened ESP trying to ruin my slides (gladly at I'm "smooth" driver, ESP doesn't recognise slide if it's done proper smooth way )

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Hey there. I see you've been doing a spot of updating . And I must say...I never thought I'd see the day when a Ridox Replica had instructions to use TC and ABS .
The level of attention to detail, however, doesn't surprise me in the slightest .

The ESP idea came after I read old articles that I have when building the SV, how even Corsa mode still have intrusive ESP, although not as early as Sport mode, and the torque split % intrigues me. I also saw posts about Aventador SV vs real in Assetto Corsa thread here, interesting to see that the SV did some drifts, which likely from using STRADA or SPORT mode with ESP. I doubt someone would let the SV driven with ESP OFF, unless the insurance is ready to take the claim

The torque split % data is obtained from Lambo owners in forum discussing the Drive mode, the CORSA uses 40/60 to help the car exit low speed corners quicker/efficiently, SPORT has 10/90 for better turn in/less understeer on the street while ESP is more aggressive as safety net.

Please test the ESP (TC/ABS), I hope I didn't set them too aggressively for their intended purpose in each drive mode.

I used higher ABS number to simulate how EBD works in the SV, aiding in corner entry braking force distribution, hence CORSA still use ABS 3. While TC at 3 allows late intervention of TC, but the window of operation still can be easily felt.

But true driver do everything to get all aids off, in game and in real-life.. I just pray for easy solution to get off my work car ESP, lightening it is not enough, pulling ABS fuse won't give good results as it fails haldex5 on that point, and haldex refuses to lock center.. Have to be happy for 50:50 continuous ratio and once a while cuffing annoying lightened ESP trying to ruin my slides (gladly at I'm "smooth" driver, ESP doesn't recognise slide if it's done proper smooth way )

There usually a special command to disable ESP completely like in most sports car

 

[ALB123]

Here is the video Ridox spoke of. It's a real Lamborghini Aventador SV driving around Modena. The screen is split to also show the virtual Lamborghini Aventador SV running in Assetto Corsa, also on Modena. Keep in mind Modena is a work-in-progress mod track for AC. It's not an official Kunos created track.



EDIT: Just to let you know, the person driving the real car is an employee at Kunos named Aris. He is the main man when it comes to the physics and setup of cars that eventually make it into the game as "official" cars. He did a pretty good job of trying to match his real lap with his virtual lap on the PC.

 

[OdeFinn]

There usually a special command to disable ESP completely like in most sports car

Yes, my work pony isn't a sports car.. But I'm hoping to crack that someway to bypass ESP.
Older models had "secret" button combo for total disarm, gotta try something.. "Cracked" already gearbox controller to allow quick reset of memory, just checked what company controller was and defaults worked no YouTube videos or even owner clubs have a clue, workshop guys (oem) didn't know either that..

 

[Thorin Cain]

But true driver do everything to get all aids off, in game and in real-life.. I just pray for easy solution to get off my work car ESP, lightening it is not enough, pulling ABS fuse won't give good results as it fails haldex5 on that point, and haldex refuses to lock center.. Have to be happy for 50:50 continuous ratio and once a while cuffing annoying lightened ESP trying to ruin my slides (gladly at I'm "smooth" driver, ESP doesn't recognise slide if it's done proper smooth way )

Too true, no point of being able to kick 740 horses in the tail (well, bulls really ) and not being at least a little scared of them kicking back now is there .

The ESP idea came after I read old articles that I have when building the SV, how even Corsa mode still have intrusive ESP, although not as early as Sport mode, and the torque split % intrigues me. I also saw posts about Aventador SV vs real in Assetto Corsa thread here, interesting to see that the SV did some drifts, which likely from using STRADA or SPORT mode with ESP. I doubt someone would let the SV driven with ESP OFF, unless the insurance is ready to take the claim

The torque split % data is obtained from Lambo owners in forum discussing the Drive mode, the CORSA uses 40/60 to help the car exit low speed corners quicker/efficiently, SPORT has 10/90 for better turn in/less understeer on the street while ESP is more aggressive as safety net.

Please test the ESP (TC/ABS), I hope I didn't set them too aggressively for their intended purpose in each drive mode.

I used higher ABS number to simulate how EBD works in the SV, aiding in corner entry braking force distribution, hence CORSA still use ABS 3. While TC at 3 allows late intervention of TC, but the window of operation still can be easily felt.

It's a very interesting idea. You know I'll try all versions

 

[LeGeNd-1]

The CM/CS tire on R32 is to get closer behavior of ATTESA/ETS, CS/CS works fine, but is too tight on low speed situation, where it should be more RWD like, so rear CM installed to make it more eager to rotate. The R32 ATTESA in GT6 is not accurate in terms of how quick it react and how effective it sends torque to the front axle, it should be late in response, allowing low speed oversteer

Try both CS/CS and CM/CS and see the difference, I think you will like CM/CS more.

Ah, that makes sense. I've heard that the stock LSD for cars with complex systems like the GT-R is automatically modelled after the real system, so if you want the closest handling, leaving LSD stock is the way to go. Installing a fully customizable LSD is actually detrimental to the handling, because then the values are fixed and not dynamic like the real thing. Maybe that's worth a try if you haven't already.

Btw, does ramp angle correspond to LSD Initial in GT6? Lower ramp angle = faster lock = higher Initial?

Also, do you take tuning requests by any chance? For example, I'm interested how you would tame a fully tuned R8 LMS on Racing Hards (no stagger tyres) with its demonic low speed snap oversteer. This won't be a realistic car though so I'd understand if you decline

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Ah, that makes sense. I've heard that the stock LSD for cars with complex systems like the GT-R is automatically modelled after the real system, so if you want the closest handling, leaving LSD stock is the way to go. Installing a fully customizable LSD is actually detrimental to the handling, because then the values are fixed and not dynamic like the real thing. Maybe that's worth a try if you haven't already.

Btw, does ramp angle correspond to LSD Initial in GT6? Lower ramp angle = faster lock = higher Initial?

Also, do you take tuning requests by any chance? For example, I'm interested how you would tame a fully tuned R8 LMS on Racing Hards (no stagger tyres) with its demonic low speed snap oversteer. This won't be a realistic car though so I'd understand if you decline

R32 GTR rear LSD is simple mechanical type ( not dynamic ), similar to NISMO GT line of LSD ( direct replacement for GTR ). It's how ATTESA ( Torque distributing center diff ) in GT6 that do not accurately perform like the real R32 GTR, sending torque to the front wheel too early.

Ramp angle is on drive/coast parameter, initial is preload, different thing. Ramp usually used on european cars ( a term ), while Japanese tend to use cam angle. This Pcars video explain well about Initial/preload and accel/braking in LSD, similar in operation to GT6 :



For R8 LMS, I have 2 made already, but they were old, from pre 1.09 and post 1.09, I'm doing another fresh build recently, with specific aim to pinpoint the cause of the low speed erratic handling ( it's part damper, LSD and spring issue )

AUDI R8 LMS Ultra (Audi Sport Team Phoenix) '12 489HP to 552HP BLANCPAIN version
Tuned to replicate Audi R8 LMS Ultra Blancpain
Sports Soft to Racing Hard​

View attachment 140099 ​

CAR : Audi R8 LMS Ultra ( Audi Sports Team Phoenix ) '12
Tire : Sports Soft to Racing Hard

Specs
Blancpain Max Power 412kW
Horsepower: 552 HP at 8000 RPM
Torque: 417.6 ft-lb at 6500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 99.6%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 0 kg
Ballast Position : 0
Weight Distribution : 45 / 55 as stock
Performance Points: 607

Blancpain power based on 2.5 Kg/Hp or 500HP
Horsepower: 500 HP at 6400 RPM
Torque: 417.0 ft-lb at 6300 RPM
Power Limiter at : 90.4%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 0 kg
Ballast Position : 0
Weight Distribution : 45 / 55 as stock
Performance Points: 594

Blancpain power based on maximum restrictor 365kW
Horsepower: 489 HP at 6400 RPM
Torque: 416.4 ft-lb at 6100 RPM
Power Limiter at : 88.2%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 0 kg
Ballast Position : 0
Weight Distribution : 45 / 55 as stock
Performance Points: 591


GT AUTO
OIL CHANGE
Improve Body Rigidity ( optional - not installed in this build )
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Stock

View attachment 140097​

Tuning Parts Installed :
Racing Exhaust
Suspension Fully Customizable Kit
Adjustable LSD
Racing Brakes Kit



AERO :
FRONT : 230
REAR : 680 ( Alternative setup is to use stock value or whatever values that suits the track or preferences - I recommend no more than 300 front aero and 730 rear aero, too high will lower acceleration and top speed)



LSD - 2 way high preload
Initial Torque : 28
Acceleration Sensitivity: 38
Braking Sensitivity: 38

Alternate LSD ( loose )
Initial Torque : 34
Acceleration Sensitivity: 34
Braking Sensitivity: 34


Suspension - EIBACH ERS Coil Springs with Bilstein Damper
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 75 75
Spring Rate: 21.43 16.87
Dampers (Compression): 6 7
Dampers (Extension): 5 4
Anti-Roll Bars: 5 4
Camber Angle: 0.2 0.2 ( use zero camber for max grip )
Toe Angle: -0.07 0.07 - increase rear toe in if want more stability in low speed, I recommend no more than 0.21 as it makes the rear harder to rotate.



Alternative Setup ( Suspension/LSD/Aero ) for 1.09 :

Ride Height: 75 75
Spring Rate: 21.43 19.39 (lowest possible)
Dampers (Compression): 6 7
Dampers (Extension): 5 5
Anti-Roll Bars: 4 3
Camber Angle: 2.2 3.2
Toe Angle: -0.08 0.08

Alternate Aero :
FRONT : 280
REAR : 680

Alternate LSD ( loose )
Initial Torque : 51
Acceleration Sensitivity: 51
Braking Sensitivity: 51



Transmission - Sequential 6 Speed Adapted Homologated Ratio
Install all power parts
Set Default
Set Final to 5.000
Set Auto Max Speed at 250kmh / 155mph
Adjust each gear :
1st 3.032
2nd 2.235
3rd 1.765
4th 1.474
5th 1.238
6th 1.037
Set Final : 3.889


Brake Balance
5/4 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 5/4, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/4 brake balance as starting point.

View attachment 140098​

Notes :
This is a replica of Audi R8 LMS Ultra Blancpain version, the power figures depend on the restrictor usage, so I have provided 3 different power levels.

The suspension has been overhauled from my older tune, incorporating new spring rate, damper, ARB, toe and camber. With the new setup, I can use same camber front and back, unlike in the older version
Overall the car is easier to drive, safer, and more consistent.

For LSD, I have used the same 2 way setup, with similar setup like in 458 GT3, while gearing also adapted from 458 GT3 homologated ratios, and it worked so well with the R8 LMS.

I have tuned and tested the car at Tsukuba, Brands Hatch GP, Bathurst, Silverstone GP, Nurburgring 24H and Spa

With stock gearing and 528HP, it manages 52.5xxs at Tsukuba, 1:23.3xxs at Brands Hatch GP, 2:04s at Bathurst and 2:01s at Silverstone GP, all on 1st lap

To replicate 2014 Audi R8 LMS, I would suggest to run at 500HP

Please leave feedback about the replica, I always consider this car as a work in progress

View attachment 140100 ​

UPDATE : Added new alternate suspension and aero set, the alternate setup offers better low speed stability and lighter steering at medium and higher speed, LSD remains the same. The new alternate setup is capable of 1:59s at Silverstone GP with 552HP.

UPDATE for 1.09 : Added alternate suspension/LSD/aero to suit with the camber that now works, thanks to @danbojte for the test.

Another older build with aero test :

AUDI R8 LMS Ultra (Audi Sport Team Phoenix) '12 RIDOX ver. 528HP 1250kg - NEW UPDATE Ver 1.04
Tuned on Racing Hard​

View attachment 97943 ​

CAR : Audi R8 LMS Ultra ( Audi Sports Team Phoenix ) '12
Tire : Racing Hard

Specs
Horsepower: 528 HP at 8000 RPM
Torque: 397.8 ft-lb at 6500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 100%
Weight: 1250 kg
Ballast : 0 kg
Ballast Position : 0
Weight Distribution : 45 / 55 as stock
Performance Points: 599


GT AUTO
No oil change yet - feel free to do so.
Improve Body Rigidity ( optional - not installed in this build ) - there's no bad side effect of this, highly recommended.
Wheels : Stock
Car Paint : Stock

View attachment 98394​

Tuning Parts Installed :
Racing Exhaust
Suspension Fully Customizable Kit
Adjustable LSD
Racing Brakes Kit



AERO :
Downforce Front / Rear : 350 / 730 ( STOCK - please adjust according to track ) - try to maintain 250-500 gap value between front and rear or adjust to suit your style ( less gap will make the car looser in high speed + slight top speed increase less rear used )



LSD - 2 way high preload - improved
Initial Torque : 30
Acceleration Sensitivity: 22
Braking Sensitivity: 46
Higher braking to reduce rear chatter when coasting and trail braking, reduced acceleration to reduce understeer and sudden changes in traction when under extreme load, initial torque optimized for balance between stability and response.


Suspension - improved
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 75 85
Spring Rate: 14.45 20.50 ( medium setup )
Dampers (Compression): 5 4
Dampers (Extension): 4 10
Anti-Roll Bars: 6 3
Camber Angle: 0.2 0.0 ( alters the balance of grip between front and rear - higher camber up front reduce the front sensitivity to steering to make it less twitchy ) I recommend between 0.2 to 1.2 - adjust to style and track.
Toe Angle: -0.10 0.10 - increase rear toe in if want more stability, I recommended no more than 0.24

For Spring Rate F/R- alternative soft setup : 11.24 / 15.97 or hard setup : 17.94 / 25.47 or super hard : 19.64 / 27.88 -TESTED

Transmission

Stock gearing, only alter final to suit track.

Brake Balance
9/5 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 3/2, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.

Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 5/4 brake balance as starting point.

View attachment 98396​

Notes :
This tune is made to help drivers tame the car, as the stock base setup is not very friendly and has too much front grip bias.

The camber quirk of zero value giving more instantaneous grip is used to alter the balance of the car when coasting and in mid corner to exit ( sustained grip during cornering seems to be fine and works as it should with camber changes ).
Brake balance set to rear bias helped the car under braking instability, the 2 way LSD also helped giving better traction both on and off throttle. All it takes some minor adjustment and the car becomes much better to drive, stable, and quick.

Tuned and tested at Brands Hatch GP, Bathurst, Silverstone Stowe, Apricot Hill, Nordschleife and Silverstone Full Track.

The R8 LMS Ultra Team Phoenix ver 1.03 able to lap Brands Hatch GP at 1:23s easily ( PB 1:22.2xx stock gearing, stock aero with the above tune ) and Mt Panorama Bathurst at consistent 2:05s ( PB 2:04s ) using stock aero + gearing - same tune above ( LSD and suspension ). All on Racing Hard, stock power no oil change.

The tune has also been tested with max power setup at over 900HP, works great, adjust gearing, aero and spring rate according to the track, enjoy

A video of the car when tested during tuning session ( 2:07 at Mt Panorama ) ver. 1.02 tune :


UPDATE : Suspension has been revised, better stability and more responsive steering

UPDATE ver 1.03 : Suspension and LSD has been overhauled, now it's several seconds faster around Brand Hatch GP and Bathurst on 599PP. Stability improved mid corner and exit, entry also improved a bit. Understeer has also been reduced.

NEW UPDATE 1.04 : Improved front damper setup to allow better weight transfer and better compliance on bumpy track.

Added Note for top speed run ride height and spring rate :

Hey Ridox have you noticed the R8 LMS Ultra having a tendency to sway at high speed with stock downforce?
I went to do a top speed run and brought the downforce all the way to minimum but at around 220-230 mph it sinks to the front and the sways uncontrollably. So I brought it back to stock and it did the same.
So on a hunch I minimized the front completely but brought the rear up to 500 and it disappeared until you get to the banked turn where you have to reduce speed to around 220 mph or you will lose control. Anyway to sort this out or am I right on the money?
This is on Route X by the way.

Easy fix : increase ride height to max, you see, when running at very high speed, the low clearance causes the suspension to bottom out as the downforce pushes the car downward Try this : set lowest downforce front and back, keep all else the same as my tune above, except max ride height. Drive to top speed at SSRX with full power 900+HP, you will notice the car gets harder to steer as it reach top speed, and no more nasty spins ( try lowest ride height for giggles ) -- BEWARE with highest ride height, meaning highest drag - lower top speed and heavy steering
ALTERNATIVELY : Set hardest spring rate set on my tune : 19.64kg/mm front and 27.88kg/mm rear, with min downforce ( allow highest top speed ), set ride height to 80 front and 80 rear, with this setup I can top 400kmh and maintain 390+kmh at the banked turn with great maneuverability If want to experiment, lower ride height both front and rear by 1mm until you find the sweet spot
EDIT : Testing 70mm front and rear ATM, with min DF and hardest spring set as on tune post
-- result : 407kmh top speed, stable on straight, weaved and changed lanes without drama , but unstable on the banked turn when moving up and down the lane -have to be extra careful when moving from top to bottom lane I would increase to 72mm to be safe.
Testing 60mm front and rear :
-- result : stable on the straight, but a bit nervous in quick lane change. 414kmh top speed - not bad. BAD news, spins immediately when entering the banked turn at full speed, highly unstable there.
I would recommend ride height of 70mm as minimum, with extra care when changing lanes on banked turn, 72 or 75 would be my best bet.
This is good experiment, looks like the aero works great in 1.03
BTW, this is all done on the tune posted above ( with max power ) and Racing Hard tire.

[/B][/B]

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Ramp angle is on drive/coast parameter, initial is preload, different thing. Ramp usually used on european cars ( a term ), while Japanese tend to use cam angle. This Pcars video explain well about Initial/preload and accel/braking in LSD, similar in operation to GT6 :

Is it really? That means I got it confused. The reason why I'm asking is because I've been reading a tuning guide for Grand Prix Legends (excellent sim despite being released at the same time as GT1, I highly suggest you give it a try). Their LSD tuning is split into ramp angle and number of clutches.

Ramp angle in that game has 2 values, one for power and one for coast. This affects how abruptly the clutch pack is engaged. Lower number = faster engagement.

Number of clutches determines how tightly the rear wheels are locked together. It's only one value for both power and coast. Lower number = more loose.

From this I gather ramp angle works the same as Initial in GT (only you can set both Initial Accel and Initial Decel separately). Clutch number is the same as Accel and Decel setting in GT, only you can't adjust each separately.

I'm gonna watch the PCARS vid later. 20 mins for explaining LSD, I don't think that's a concise explanation lol.

For R8 LMS, I have 2 made already, but they were old, from pre 1.09 and post 1.09, I'm doing another fresh build recently, with specific aim to pinpoint the cause of the low speed erratic handling ( it's part damper, LSD and spring issue )



Another older build with aero test :

Yeah I've taken a look at those. With maximum power (all power upgrades installed) it's a different beast though and it's much more difficult. I'm just wondering what suspension/LSD tricks you will use to tame it in that case.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Is it really? That means I got it confused. The reason why I'm asking is because I've been reading a tuning guide for Grand Prix Legends (excellent sim despite being released at the same time as GT1, I highly suggest you give it a try). Their LSD tuning is split into ramp angle and number of clutches.

Ramp angle in that game has 2 values, one for power and one for coast. This affects how abruptly the clutch pack is engaged. Lower number = faster engagement.

Number of clutches determines how tightly the rear wheels are locked together. It's only one value for both power and coast. Lower number = more loose.

From this I gather ramp angle works the same as Initial in GT (only you can set both Initial Accel and Initial Decel separately). Clutch number is the same as Accel and Decel setting in GT, only you can't adjust each separately.

I'm gonna watch the PCARS vid later. 20 mins for explaining LSD, I don't think that's a concise explanation lol.



Yeah I've taken a look at those. With maximum power (all power upgrades installed) it's a different beast though and it's much more difficult. I'm just wondering what suspension/LSD tricks you will use to tame it in that case.

GPL have more intricate LSD simulation, GT6 is simplifeid. Initial in GT is similar to preload in Pcars and LFS, let's not confused it with GPL use of terms - if you know real life LSD, most european cars uses ramp angle ( ZF clutch LSD ), it's different to cam angle used by most Japanese LSD. The lower the ramp, the more/quicker it locks, the lower the cam, the slower/less it locks, opposite in concept, but both works in either drive or coast, while initial torque/preload is always there/on, until the breakaway torque reached ( up until that torque limit, the diff stay locked/resisting speed difference )

Real life LSD is complicated, if you read my past posts on LSD few pages back, I wrote detailed explanation on types of LSD.

Try drive the oldest R8 LMS tune, one I quoted last, I drove that with max power as well, not sure if the tune still works. The R8 LMS is unique car, different drivers needs different tune, as some can't adapt to the low speed behavior. I have a baseline tune made now, but it only works for me, so I may post it as WIP here, and encourage others to try it and see what issue they find that I may not have.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

GPL have more intricate LSD simulation, GT6 is simplifeid. Initial in GT is similar to preload in Pcars and LFS, let's not confused it with GPL use of terms - if you know real life LSD, most european cars uses ramp angle ( ZF clutch LSD ), it's different to cam angle used by most Japanese LSD. The lower the ramp, the more/quicker it locks, the lower the cam, the slower/less it locks, opposite in concept, but both works in either drive or coast, while initial torque/preload is always there/on, until the breakaway torque reached ( up until that torque limit, the diff stay locked/resisting speed difference )

Real life LSD is complicated, if you read my past posts on LSD few pages back, I wrote detailed explanation on types of LSD.

Try drive the oldest R8 LMS tune, one I quoted last, I drove that with max power as well, not sure if the tune still works. The R8 LMS is unique car, different drivers needs different tune, as some can't adapt to the low speed behavior. I have a baseline tune made now, but it only works for me, so I may post it as WIP here, and encourage others to try it and see what issue they find that I may not have.

Right, so basically GPL settings cannot be transferred to GT because they are modelling completely different LSD systems?

Ramp is equivalent to cam, only the numbers are opposite.

Ramp/cam is not the same as preload, which is the system used in GT (what system is this in real life?).

I've been reading your posts on page 143 (the one with graphs). I get the gist of it, but I'm still wondering if there is a way to convert values from one system to another (probably not). Interesting how GT deals with cars that have a different system in real life. Do you just estimate what the values are and what feels similar in your tunes?

 

[Pete05]

GPL have more intricate LSD simulation, GT6 is simplifeid. Initial in GT is similar to preload in Pcars and LFS, let's not confused it with GPL use of terms - if you know real life LSD, most european cars uses ramp angle ( ZF clutch LSD ), it's different to cam angle used by most Japanese LSD. The lower the ramp, the more/quicker it locks, the lower the cam, the slower/less it locks, opposite in concept, but both works in either drive or coast, while initial torque/preload is always there/on, until the breakaway torque reached ( up until that torque limit, the diff stay locked/resisting speed difference )

Real life LSD is complicated, if you read my past posts on LSD few pages back, I wrote detailed explanation on types of LSD.

Try drive the oldest R8 LMS tune, one I quoted last, I drove that with max power as well, not sure if the tune still works. The R8 LMS is unique car, different drivers needs different tune, as some can't adapt to the low speed behavior. I have a baseline tune made now, but it only works for me, so I may post it as WIP here, and encourage others to try it and see what issue they find that I may not have.

I can remember trying your tune of
the Bilstien R8 GT3 a while back now & how you advised to always have part throttle in the slow corners. Something I was never able to get comfortable with on the DS3.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I can remember trying your tune of
the Bilstien R8 GT3 a while back now & how you advised to always have part throttle in the slow corners. Something I was never able to get comfortable with on the DS3.

There's something about how the R8 LMS loses balance when using engine braking at corner entry, lifting off completely right until the end of turn, there's abrupt change of rear diff behavior, giving the loose treatment. I found the point at which this reaction can be lessened, initial torque/preload at around 12, but this also requires some locking in braking at 10 and full lock on accel at 60 , with 60 accel, a slight throttle is enough to stabilize the car, but steering input still needs to be minimal.

There are many ways to tame the R8, from ballast, ride height trick, camber/toe, and aero, but the build I'm on now has several key point being intentionally fixed, like aero, I locked at max front and min rear, equal ride height at 75, zero toe, LSD accel at 60. These are chains to make the car not very friendly, then I try to make it more friendly by using spring/damper/ARB. Applying rear toe in can cure some of it's low speed issue, but not completely, I'm trying to find the most effective way to minimize it.

PD have been tweaking the R8 LMS several time during updates, changing stock weight distribution, spring rate range of values/stock value as well.

I rolled over the R8 ( full power ) at Red Bull Ring 2nd turn/hairpin up hill

 

[Pete05]

There's something about how the R8 LMS loses balance when using engine braking at corner entry, lifting off completely right until the end of turn, there's abrupt change of rear diff behavior, giving the loose treatment. I found the point at which this reaction can be lessened, initial torque/preload at around 12, but this also requires some locking in braking at 10 and full lock on accel at 60 , with 60 accel, a slight throttle is enough to stabilize the car, but steering input still needs to be minimal.

There are many ways to tame the R8, from ballast, ride height trick, camber/toe, and aero, but the build I'm on now has several key point being intentionally fixed, like aero, I locked at max front and min rear, equal ride height at 75, zero toe, LSD accel at 60. These are chains to make the car not very friendly, then I try to make it more friendly by using spring/damper/ARB. Applying rear toe in can cure some of it's low speed issue, but not completely, I'm trying to find the most effective way to minimize it.

PD have been tweaking the R8 LMS several time during updates, changing stock weight distribution, spring rate range of values/stock value as well.

I rolled over the R8 ( full power ) at Red Bull Ring 2nd turn/hairpin up hill

Lol. Yeah I can remember having a red hot go in it at Bathurst and always losing out at Turn 4/The Cutting I was never able to complete a lap there without an involuntary wish to pioneer a new racing line

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Right, so basically GPL settings cannot be transferred to GT because they are modelling completely different LSD systems?

Ramp is equivalent to cam, only the numbers are opposite.

Ramp/cam is not the same as preload, which is the system used in GT (what system is this in real life?).

I've been reading your posts on page 143 (the one with graphs). I get the gist of it, but I'm still wondering if there is a way to convert values from one system to another (probably not). Interesting how GT deals with cars that have a different system in real life. Do you just estimate what the values are and what feels similar in your tunes?

GT6 uses simplified clutch plate LSD, which have preload/initial torque, accel/braking lock. I think I posted some screenshots from Cusco LSD doc few pages back or it may have been on LSD thread, that will easily explain how GT6 simulate LSD ( initial/accel/brake )

Yes, I estimate the values, and go by feel ( behavior ) of the car when driven

GPL LSD model is good, it's just have several break down parts that can be tweaked, the end result often can be achieved with simplified system like in Pcars or LFS.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Lol. Yeah I can remember having a red hot go in it at Bathurst and always losing out at Turn 4/The Cutting I was never able to complete a lap there without an involuntary wish to pioneer a new racing line

Left foot braking works well on the R8 LMS, but it's hard with DS3


@LeGeNd-1 Here is a quote of my post on LSD thread :

@OdeFinn : Saw this on one of my old docs, from Xtrac fwd plate LSD manual which shows how preload/initial torque works, the Xtrac offers different preload spring up to over 200Nm.

P45 power ramp angle at 45 deg

C60 is coast ramp angle at 60 deg

Imagine if the LSD is set with 125Nm preload, but with 4 weak friction plate and 85 ramp angle on both power and coast ( lowest lock ), it would be similar to say 30/5/5 LSD in GT6 ( just a rough example )

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Okay, this is a very crude base line I made yesterday, a methodical setup, with several key values locked as I tried to find the best way to lessened the low speed loose/twitch

Use Audi R8 LMS Ultra Team Phoenix '12
528HP, 1250kg, 47/53.

Do not change oil, leave as is

Set only suspension, LSD and aero, leave gear ratios stock as is. Install RH tire.


SUSPENSION
Ride Height: 75 75
Spring Rate: 23.46 19.39
Dampers (Compression): 3 4
Dampers (Extension): 1 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 3
Camber Angle: 2.0 3.0
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00

LSD
Initial Torque : 12
Acceleration Sensitivity: 60
Braking Sensitivity: 10



AERO
FRONT/REAR = 400 / 400

Brake Balance : 3/4 ( my personal setup )
The ride height is set at around middle height, rear spring is lowest and front a bit higher. I read quite awhile ago, R8 LMS GT3 IRL had much stiffer spring on front axle than rear, somewhere around 200-300+N/mm front and rear can be very soft, 100-200+N/mm rear.
I set camber at 2.0/3.0, feel free to use zero camber, there will be slight difference in balance.

LSD I set 60 for accel, it keeps the rear stable and tight, but still easy to turn. For aero, I intentionally use max front and min rear to give distinct balance, so it's easy to feel when there's improvement.

Drive the car with the setup, try at Brands Hatch GP, I did 1:24s on 1st lap. Red Bull Ring also a good place to test on. Use max power if wished, I tried with max power, still okay, but needs better throttle play on lower gears.

Don't be afraid to tweak the car further, increasing ARB both ends will make the car reaction faster ( at max 7 can lose grip early ), increasing rear damper extension may cause over rotation, increasing front damper extension can make it understeer, then snap oversteer, beware.

Put more toe in at rear, somewhere 0.20 to 0.60 can help greatly on low speed stability, front toe in at moderate 0.10-0.20 also can be used. Front toe out also works well, -0.15 to -0.30.

Aero, increase rear to 500, you will feel better grip under braking and turn in, less rotation at high speed. OR lower front to 300 or 250 while rear at 400, see the difference it makes.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

GT6 uses simplified clutch plate LSD, which have preload/initial torque, accel/braking lock. I think I posted some screenshots from Cusco LSD doc few pages back or it may have been on LSD thread, that will easily explain how GT6 simulate LSD ( initial/accel/brake )

Yes, I estimate the values, and go by feel ( behavior ) of the car when driven

GPL LSD model is good, it's just have several break down parts that can be tweaked, the end result often can be achieved with simplified system like in Pcars or LFS.

Yes, I've done some reading at wikipedia, also downloaded the Cusco pdf where you got the graphs on page 143. I think I understand a bit better now.

Also this channel on YT (Learn Engineering) have animations which makes the concept a lot easier for me to grasp:

Preload Type


Ramp/Cam Type (the difference between ramp/cam angle is the reference plane from which the angle of the pressure plate "hole" is measured - ramp is from vertical, cam is from horizontal)


This site has a good explanation of ramp angle: http://www.intothered.dk/simracing/differential.html

The PCARS video though. It mentioned higher Accel values to make the car turn easier. Isn't this opposite to real life? I know full lock is usually used in drifting once you have wheelspin, but surely high Accel values make it harder to turn if there's no wheelspin because the wheels just want to go straight.

@LeGeNd-1 Here is a quote of my post on LSD thread :

Looking at that graph, Initial in GT refers to preload spring, Accel refers to power ramp angle, Decel refers to coast ramp angle. I assume clutch number is not selectable in GT.

Boy my brain is almost melting, but I think I finally got a handle on LSD

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yes, I've done some reading at wikipedia, also downloaded the Cusco pdf where you got the graphs on page 143. I think I understand a bit better now.

Also this channel on YT (Learn Engineering) have animations which makes the concept a lot easier for me to grasp:

Preload Type


Ramp/Cam Type (the difference between ramp/cam angle is the reference plane from which the angle of the pressure plate "hole" is measured - ramp is from vertical, cam is from horizontal)


This site has a good explanation of ramp angle: http://www.intothered.dk/simracing/differential.html

The PCARS video though. It mentioned higher Accel values to make the car turn easier. Isn't this opposite to real life? I know full lock is usually used in drifting once you have wheelspin, but surely high Accel values make it harder to turn if there's no wheelspin because the wheels just want to go straight.



Looking at that graph, Initial in GT refers to preload spring, Accel refers to power ramp angle, Decel refers to coast ramp angle. I assume clutch number is not selectable in GT.

Boy my brain is almost melting, but I think I finally got a handle on LSD

LSD is difficult to understand, but once you have fair grasp of how it works, it's much easier to digest

I think the Pcars guide wanted to say loose when higher accel used, easier to oversteer/get the nose in/tail out. Harder to turn with locked diff, can happen, but there are ways to counter that with suspension/alignment and tire.

Glad your brain not melted

 

[LeGeNd-1]

LSD is difficult to understand, but once you have fair grasp of how it works, it's much easier to digest

I think the Pcars guide wanted to say loose when higher accel used, easier to oversteer/get the nose in/tail out. Harder to turn with locked diff, can happen, but there are ways to counter that with suspension/alignment and tire.

Glad your brain not melted

Yeah, that's what I thought. With high Accel you can use the throttle to induce oversteer, but in steady state it usually cause understeer in RWD. It's not as straightforward as FWD where high Accel = understeer all the time.

I also find it hard to feel the effects of LSD Initial, because I left foot brake and from habit I always keep a little throttle, even under braking. So I'm almost never in a coasting position.

Anyway, I think I'll leave you alone with the hard questions now I've learnt a lot more in the last few pages than in my whole life of tuning I'll be sure to drop by and comment if I came across a tune that's interesting

 

[OdeFinn]

@LeGeNd-1 check that LSD thread, https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/limited-slip-differential-lsd-theory.326659/
There is lot opened from GT6 LSD, you might find few nice surprises there, like how changing clutch and propeller shaft changes LSD working.
I have collected real LSD infos here: LSD collection: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5YaJzsNBJoU-Pni3Sw1KUkBvoSs0365Y

Between @Ridox2JZGTE and I there is slight difference how we deal LSD locking rate, actual working on either of us settings comes pretty same ratio of overall locking, until someday have toooooo much time and I'll lap data from game and count from wheel rates it will stay mystery who's "right", I'll think at both are close to right understanding GT6 lock, enough to setup car as wanted

 

[ALB123]

Geez. I can't begin to tell you how confused I get when I see LSD discussions. Ridox has explained it to me several different times. I start grasping things and then my brain explodes. At that point, I'm back at square one. Admittedly, I never really took cars in GT6 and just practiced adjusting settings to see what it does to the car - over and over until I got a handle on things. I used to keep 2 yellow sticky notes right next to my wheel so I could refer to the little cheat sheet I made. Those eventually got thrown away by accident.

Anyway, it's great that there are smart guys like you OdeFinn, Legend-1 & Ridox (and many others) because without your help I would be completely screwed. As it is I am forced to drive stock setups on the majority of cars, both Street Cars & Race Cars because I have a lot of trouble adjusting my suspension and/or aerodynamics and actually improving the car. Alignment is about the only thing I actually feel confident about adjusting. Fortunately, you can't even adjust the LSD on 99% of the street cars - so I can't screw that up! And even with Race Cars I think we only have 2 settings that are adjustable, not 3 like in Gran Turismo.

I really, really hope that they've drastically changed, fixed and improved the physics in Gran Turismo Sport. You guys will have an absolute field day tweaking setups knowing that the settings you're adjusting will actually do what they're supposed to do (unlike the Ride Height glitch in GT6).

Even though I get confused, I still usually bookmark these pages because I know they contain a wealth of information. As I get more confident in trusting myself to adjust my LSD settings I am sure referring back to this conversation will prove extremely valuable! 👍

 

[OdeFinn]

Okay, this is a very crude base line I made yesterday, a methodical setup, with several key values locked as I tried to find the best way to lessened the low speed loose/twitch

Use Audi R8 LMS Ultra Team Phoenix '12
528HP, 1250kg, 47/53.

Do not change oil, leave as is

Set only suspension, LSD and aero, leave gear ratios stock as is. Install RH tire.


SUSPENSION
Ride Height: 75 75
Spring Rate: 23.46 19.39
Dampers (Compression): 3 4
Dampers (Extension): 1 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 3
Camber Angle: 2.0 3.0
Toe Angle: 0.00 0.00

LSD
Initial Torque : 12
Acceleration Sensitivity: 60
Braking Sensitivity: 10



AERO
FRONT/REAR = 400 / 400

Brake Balance : 3/4 ( my personal setup )
The ride height is set at around middle height, rear spring is lowest and front a bit higher. I read quite awhile ago, R8 LMS GT3 IRL had much stiffer spring on front axle than rear, somewhere around 200-300+N/mm front and rear can be very soft, 100-200+N/mm rear.
I set camber at 2.0/3.0, feel free to use zero camber, there will be slight difference in balance.

LSD I set 60 for accel, it keeps the rear stable and tight, but still easy to turn. For aero, I intentionally use max front and min rear to give distinct balance, so it's easy to feel when there's improvement.

Drive the car with the setup, try at Brands Hatch GP, I did 1:24s on 1st lap. Red Bull Ring also a good place to test on. Use max power if wished, I tried with max power, still okay, but needs better throttle play on lower gears.

Don't be afraid to tweak the car further, increasing ARB both ends will make the car reaction faster ( at max 7 can lose grip early ), increasing rear damper extension may cause over rotation, increasing front damper extension can make it understeer, then snap oversteer, beware.

Put more toe in at rear, somewhere 0.20 to 0.60 can help greatly on low speed stability, front toe in at moderate 0.10-0.20 also can be used. Front toe out also works well, -0.15 to -0.30.

Aero, increase rear to 500, you will feel better grip under braking and turn in, less rotation at high speed. OR lower front to 300 or 250 while rear at 400, see the difference it makes.

Tried as is and bit tweaked.
As is it's bending front wheels under braking and that camber trust (represents +0.20 toe in) grabs and oversteer front. Soft extension leaves front wobbling on cornering load and front is restless.
Tweak 1: neutralized front "toe in by camber thrust" and left bit "toe in" by using toe out -0.17 and car is much more driveable.
Tweak 2: stabilised front wobbling using tweak 1 plus adding damper extension on front to 4, feels ready to race

Ps. Seems like rear camber thrust ratio on GT6 is 100:1 instead of front 10:1, meaning at my tweak leaving +0.03 camber thrust on front and rear feels to give already that +0.03 with -3.0 camber. Leaves lot of tolerance between full degree changes on rear, tested this on several rear cambers now, and i.e. -2.0 rear camber asked -0.18 on front to stabilise car..

Tweak 3: changed behavior bit more with above 1&2 tweaks plus changing front camber/toe -2.9/-0.26, balances but also reduces turn snap on front, "understeer" is close but not there. Plus reducing rear brakes on same level as on front(3/3), help on corner entry.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Yeah, that's what I thought. With high Accel you can use the throttle to induce oversteer, but in steady state it usually cause understeer in RWD. It's not as straightforward as FWD where high Accel = understeer all the time.

I also find it hard to feel the effects of LSD Initial, because I left foot brake and from habit I always keep a little throttle, even under braking. So I'm almost never in a coasting position.

Anyway, I think I'll leave you alone with the hard questions now I've learnt a lot more in the last few pages than in my whole life of tuning I'll be sure to drop by and comment if I came across a tune that's interesting

You can try the Honda Prelude '96 with stock LSD, the initial is higher than accel/brake, fit CH tires, and drive it hard out of slow corners, should be easier to feel the initial works.

Geez. I can't begin to tell you how confused I get when I see LSD discussions. Ridox has explained it to me several different times. I start grasping things and then my brain explodes. At that point, I'm back at square one. Admittedly, I never really took cars in GT6 and just practiced adjusting settings to see what it does to the car - over and over until I got a handle on things. I used to keep 2 yellow sticky notes right next to my wheel so I could refer to the little cheat sheet I made. Those eventually got thrown away by accident.

Anyway, it's great that there are smart guys like you OdeFinn, Legend-1 & Ridox (and many others) because without your help I would be completely screwed. As it is I am forced to drive stock setups on the majority of cars, both Street Cars & Race Cars because I have a lot of trouble adjusting my suspension and/or aerodynamics and actually improving the car. Alignment is about the only thing I actually feel confident about adjusting. Fortunately, you can't even adjust the LSD on 99% of the street cars - so I can't screw that up! And even with Race Cars I think we only have 2 settings that are adjustable, not 3 like in Gran Turismo.

I really, really hope that they've drastically changed, fixed and improved the physics in Gran Turismo Sport. You guys will have an absolute field day tweaking setups knowing that the settings you're adjusting will actually do what they're supposed to do (unlike the Ride Height glitch in GT6).

Even though I get confused, I still usually bookmark these pages because I know they contain a wealth of information. As I get more confident in trusting myself to adjust my LSD settings I am sure referring back to this conversation will prove extremely valuable! 👍

When I first got into street racing back in college days, learning LSD was the first thing I have to endure for months not just driving one with aggressive LSD, but how to make it stick on the road I never drove my own car back then, usually my mates trusted me with their cars, doing street setup, like tire pressure, weight ( emptying stuff, putting ballast using sand filled box/sack ), damper, tire ( stagger tire width ), LSD ( getting aftermarket installed with custom plate,preload,cam ), and sometimes playing with japanese gadgets like air/fuel controller. Most of the time my work was not really useful as the car often lose , more like driver than the car, chickening out on corners ( fear is a real thing ).

I do not condone illegal activity, so don't race on the street folks ( It's a past I better left untouched )

All I can say is keep on driving and experiencing variety of LSD setup on variety of car setup, that way you can build a wealth of feel and knowledge on how each car drivetrain and setup quirks work.

Tried as is and bit tweaked.
As is it's bending front wheels under braking and that camber trust (represents +0.20 toe in) grabs and oversteer front. Soft extension leaves front wobbling on cornering load and front is restless.
Tweak 1: neutralized front "toe in by camber thrust" and left bit "toe in" by using toe out -0.17 and car is much more driveable.
Tweak 2: stabilised front wobbling using tweak 1 plus adding damper extension on front to 4, feels ready to race

Ps. Seems like rear camber thrust ratio on GT6 is 100:1 instead of front 10:1, meaning at my tweak leaving +0.03 camber thrust on front and rear feels to give already that +0.03 with -3.0 camber. Leaves lot of tolerance between full degree changes on rear, tested this on several rear cambers now, and i.e. -2.0 rear camber asked -0.18 on front to stabilise car..

Tweak 3: changed behavior bit more with above 1&2 tweaks plus changing front camber/toe -2.9/-0.26, balances but also reduces turn snap on front, "understeer" is close but not there. Plus reducing rear brakes on same level as on front(3/3), help on corner entry.

Interesting to hear about the front being restless, so the change are front toe out -0.26 with more camber -2.9, front damper extension to 4, brake balance to 3/3 Anyone else please try the changes by Odefinn

See, this is how each driver is different, I originally had 3/3 brake balance, but i feel lack of rotation on entry trail braking, so I added rear to 4. I also tried front damper extension to 4, and higher, but settled for 1, I haven't tried 4 with front toe out though, so that needs to be tested for me.

Have you driven it at Red Bull Ring ,the 2nd turn/hairpin up hill is the highlight for the R8, the turn in and exit really expose the car balance on low speed turn.

 

[OdeFinn]

Interesting to hear about the front being restless, so the change are front toe out -0.26 with more camber -2.9, front damper extension to 4, brake balance to 3/3 Anyone else please try the changes by Odefinn

See, this is how each driver is different, I originally had 3/3 brake balance, but i feel lack of rotation on entry trail braking, so I added rear to 4. I also tried front damper extension to 4, and higher, but settled for 3, I haven't tried 4 with front toe out though, so that needs to be tested for me.

Have you driven it at Red Bull Ring ,the 2nd turn/hairpin up hill is the highlight for the R8, the turn in and exit really expose the car balance on low speed turn.

Used more my surgery on suspension, ended up for my driving style on next:
74/77
23.46/19.39
3/5
4/4
3/3
-2.9/-3.0
-0.26/0.00
Bb 3/3

Other settings as is, so didn't touch springs
Rear height might work with 76 better if throttle control is hard, 77 allows you to start pushing progressively before apex.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Ride Height: 75 75
Spring Rate: 23.46 19.39
Dampers (Compression): 4 4
Dampers (Extension): 2 3
Anti-Roll Bars: 3 3
Camber Angle: 2.0 3.0
Toe Angle: -0.32 0.43

The front damper and toe change was an experiment when I posted the original setup, it did 1:30.009 at Red Bull Ring, could have been 1:29s if not making some mistakes ( too late braking ). Similar lap time to SLS AMG GT3 online tune I made for @danbojte , tried the setup at Brands Hatch GP, able to take 1st turn well, and overall stable at a cost of high toe usage.

Front damper compression at 5 or 6 allows the car to be much stable on low speed exit, but became slower to rotate ( with front extension at 1 )

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Testing same setup as above post, at Apricot Hill Reverse. I have a SuperGT car tested here that can lap 1:18s, and the R8 managed to do it as well.
Tried with lowered LSD accel at 58 ( reduced by 2 ), much easier on throttle for low speed exit, tested at Nurb 24H, drives fine, although different driver may need to increase rear aero for more planted rear ( by 20 step )

This car could be great for FITT event at Apricot Hill Reverse or RBR

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Back again on LSD, in rFactor BMW Sauber there is an extra setting called "Pump". Anyone knows what this refers to? I've read on forums that it's a general setting that applies to both Power/Coast. Is it more like the number of clutch in GPL then? It's definitely not Preload because that has its own setting.

rFactor is pretty amazing tbh. The Sauber F1 has 4 settings. Niels NSX mod only has Accel/Decel/Preload (Pump is greyed out). Seems like the different LSD types are all modelled separately.

Don't even get me started on wedge, caster, third spring and asymmetric settings. Ahhh, I can only dream when GT reaches that level of sophistication in tuning

@LeGeNd-1 check that LSD thread, https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/limited-slip-differential-lsd-theory.326659/
There is lot opened from GT6 LSD, you might find few nice surprises there, like how changing clutch and propeller shaft changes LSD working.
I have collected real LSD infos here: LSD collection: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5YaJzsNBJoU-Pni3Sw1KUkBvoSs0365Y

Between @Ridox2JZGTE and I there is slight difference how we deal LSD locking rate, actual working on either of us settings comes pretty same ratio of overall locking, until someday have toooooo much time and I'll lap data from game and count from wheel rates it will stay mystery who's "right", I'll think at both are close to right understanding GT6 lock, enough to setup car as wanted

I've just skimmed that thread briefly. I'm surprised that clutch and driveshaft upgrades affect LSD. From my understanding the clutch upgrade in GT is referring to the gear change clutch, and not the clutch inside the diff. Unless I've got it wrong and they are the same thing???

Sometimes I think we are overcomplicating things with GT. To me the clutch upgrade just helps make gear change faster, and driveshaft makes acceleration a little bit faster. I've not done any scientific tests though so I'm happy to be proven wrong.

In general I also find small changes hard to feel in GT compared to PC sims. Unless you make extreme or undrivable changes, I'm still not 100% sure whether the change is placebo or real or my driving has changed. The physics and FFB are just not very "clear". I can make a 1-2 click spring change in rFactor and immediately feel a clear difference. It's not an exaggerated difference like Codemasters simcade games either. Because of this sometimes I feel chasing the perfect tune in GT is not really worth it. Just slap a rough tune, as long as the car is not undrivable is good enough

Geez. I can't begin to tell you how confused I get when I see LSD discussions. Ridox has explained it to me several different times. I start grasping things and then my brain explodes. At that point, I'm back at square one. Admittedly, I never really took cars in GT6 and just practiced adjusting settings to see what it does to the car - over and over until I got a handle on things. I used to keep 2 yellow sticky notes right next to my wheel so I could refer to the little cheat sheet I made. Those eventually got thrown away by accident.

Anyway, it's great that there are smart guys like you OdeFinn, Legend-1 & Ridox (and many others) because without your help I would be completely screwed. As it is I am forced to drive stock setups on the majority of cars, both Street Cars & Race Cars because I have a lot of trouble adjusting my suspension and/or aerodynamics and actually improving the car. Alignment is about the only thing I actually feel confident about adjusting. Fortunately, you can't even adjust the LSD on 99% of the street cars - so I can't screw that up! And even with Race Cars I think we only have 2 settings that are adjustable, not 3 like in Gran Turismo.

I really, really hope that they've drastically changed, fixed and improved the physics in Gran Turismo Sport. You guys will have an absolute field day tweaking setups knowing that the settings you're adjusting will actually do what they're supposed to do (unlike the Ride Height glitch in GT6).

Even though I get confused, I still usually bookmark these pages because I know they contain a wealth of information. As I get more confident in trusting myself to adjust my LSD settings I am sure referring back to this conversation will prove extremely valuable! 👍

Hey, thanks for the kind words mate I really don't think I'm smart on these kinds of stuff. If you see my posts I ask more questions than give answers I don't have any engineering background in real life, so all I ever knew about car mechanics are just from game tuning screens.

Don't feel bad about driving cars stock. Even though you don't consciously realize, that will greatly improve your adaptation skills to driving a wide variety of cars that may not suit your driving style 👍 For the first 3 years of playing GT1/2, I never touched the settings screen from fear of mucking up the car. I think that period, more than anything helped me to be flexible. I'm not the fastest racer out there, but I can generally understand a new car in just 2-3 corners these days. It's also bad because when tuning I can never trust whether the improvement is due to the tuning or my driving got better

It's been 10 years ago now that I first learned about tuning. I remember reading the GT1 walkthroughs on Gamefaqs back then and was absolutely swamped by the amount of information. But you just try to understand it little by little, and experiment with the game. Also understanding the physics of how everything works in real life helps. But life is a journey and you never stop learning, so just enjoy the process, and most importantly remember to enjoy the driving and racing 👍

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Back again on LSD, in rFactor BMW Sauber there is an extra setting called "Pump". Anyone knows what this refers to? I've read on forums that it's a general setting that applies to both Power/Coast. Is it more like the number of clutch in GPL then? It's definitely not Preload because that has its own setting.

rFactor is pretty amazing tbh. The Sauber F1 has 4 settings. Niels NSX mod only has Accel/Decel/Preload (Pump is greyed out). Seems like the different LSD types are all modelled separately.

Don't even get me started on wedge, caster, third spring and asymmetric settings. Ahhh, I can only dream when GT reaches that level of sophistication in tuning



I've just skimmed that thread briefly. I'm surprised that clutch and driveshaft upgrades affect LSD. From my understanding the clutch upgrade in GT is referring to the gear change clutch, and not the clutch inside the diff. Unless I've got it wrong and they are the same thing???

Sometimes I think we are overcomplicating things with GT. To me the clutch upgrade just helps make gear change faster, and driveshaft makes acceleration a little bit faster. I've not done any scientific tests though so I'm happy to be proven wrong.

In general I also find small changes hard to feel in GT compared to PC sims. Unless you make extreme or undrivable changes, I'm still not 100% sure whether the change is placebo or real or my driving has changed. The physics and FFB are just not very "clear". I can make a 1-2 click spring change in rFactor and immediately feel a clear difference. It's not an exaggerated difference like Codemasters simcade games either. Because of this sometimes I feel chasing the perfect tune in GT is not really worth it. Just slap a rough tune, as long as the car is not undrivable is good enough



Hey, thanks for the kind words mate I really don't think I'm smart on these kinds of stuff. If you see my posts I ask more questions than give answers I don't have any engineering background in real life, so all I ever knew about car mechanics are just from game tuning screens.

Don't feel bad about driving cars stock. Even though you don't consciously realize, that will greatly improve your adaptation skills to driving a wide variety of cars that may not suit your driving style 👍 For the first 3 years of playing GT1/2, I never touched the settings screen from fear of mucking up the car. I think that period, more than anything helped me to be flexible. I'm not the fastest racer out there, but I can generally understand a new car in just 2-3 corners these days. It's also bad because when tuning I can never trust whether the improvement is due to the tuning or my driving got better

It's been 10 years ago now that I first learned about tuning. I remember reading the GT1 walkthroughs on Gamefaqs back then and was absolutely swamped by the amount of information. But you just try to understand it little by little, and experiment with the game. Also understanding the physics of how everything works in real life helps. But life is a journey and you never stop learning, so just enjoy the process, and most importantly remember to enjoy the driving and racing 👍

The only reference for pump that I could think of is gerotor pump diff, it's speed sensitive type which uses hydraulic pump clutch ( if there's a speed/rotation difference, the pump activate the clutch plate to send torque/power ). It's very similar to viscous LSD, which uses oil but has the same working concept. Which is not very effective compared to clutch type LSD. LFS also has it, named as viscous

GKN manufacture viscous LSD, branded as Visco-Lok, it uses shear pump to create pressure to engage the clutch ( which transmit power )

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Interesting. I would have expected an F1 car to use a more sophisticated system (an electronic diff of some sort). Maybe that's just the way rFactor decides to model the system though.