Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[bobba1]

I think its important to understand 'Nazi'.
Nazi's were the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.
As we all know the Nazi's came to be remembered as killing 6 million Jews.

For decades there has been an over use of the term Nazi to describe anything from over zealous parking wardens to even Israel.
(Putin has called Israel Nazi's for example).

Many countries have groups who still use Nazi symbolism and flags and even ideology.

It's nigh on impossible to ever separate Nazi ideology from the slaughter of Jews without getting piled on.
But in my opinion as much as i dislike anyone who uses Nazi ideology or symbolism, I'm hard pushed to think they themselves should be slaughtered.
Added to the fact that stuff like "Make America great again" was isolationist and anyone who puts their country first is effectively a Nazi.
Clearly having a passion for your own country doesn't make you a Nazi in the strongest term.

Clearly what separated the Nazi's was the wholesale murder of Jews.
Now if anyone can show me evidence of Ukraine killing Jews wholesale, or any American nationalist group doing similar then i'm all ears.

A Nazi, the true worst explanation of one anyway, is that they are mass killing Jews or any ethnic group.

Show me any evidence of that in Ukraine.

Wearing Nazi badge's, or reading and following Nazi ideology (which was far more than just killing Jews, if you dared to say it Hitler did some impressive things politically like creating VW. autobahn, animal rights, i kid you not!, Hitler was also way ahead on the dangers of smoking, he hated it!)

Having a weird respect for Nazi's is abhorrent, but unless these people are wholesale killing a certain group then really there is no excuse for killing them.

Funnily enough, i do think that Russia right now fits the bill of 'Nazi' pretty damn well...

Putin knows that the West has over used Nazi far too much and is playing it.
Truth is there is no evidence of any mass killing's of any group in Ukraine, no gas chambers etc.

Its a con, and some are lapping it up.
I have a fascination with American serial killers, judging by the sheer amount of books on the subject and films i think many do.
It doesn't mean that we should arrest ort kill anyone who reads about serial killers....

 

[inCloud]

The key aspect was Russia not being able to establish air superiority.

You cant capture city without overwhelming dominance in infantry. Siege of city 101. Russia invade Ukraine with lesser forces.

Civilians caught in crossfire

What crossfire? Those cities were under RF control for weeks. Civilians were already dead when RF start moving out of city.

 

[Scaff]

@inCloud are you able to confirm/translate the following:

 

[bobba1]

I have yet to see a source that shows the exact wounds of all the victims - burning bodies and putting them into graves is indeed a very normal thing if you occupy a city in war time.

Also, its not very outlandish to imagine that Ukraine soldiers saw the bodies and thought it would be fuel against Russia to tie some of the bodies up and arrange them in certain ways and say it was war crimes on TV. I would have done that if it helped the war effort for my country.
Countries are now reacting to this incident and because of it consider new sanctions against Russia regarding oil and gas. That was predictable.


Again, the most likely explanation IS war crimes done by Russia, but we cannot be sure until the experts have done their investigations. And thats also the proper procedure.

Well there are still people today that believe that the Gas chambers were faked and 6 million Jews didn't die.
Some very intelligent writers have reams of apparent 'evidence'.
What do you think to that?

Do you lean towards that too?
You sound like someone who will always side with Russia regardless same as the people that side still with the idea that the Holocaust is fake even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

[eran0004]

There are so many possible alternatives you could easily find if you just gave it a quick thought.

Civilians caught in crossfire. Militia or armed civilians killed in firefights, a misunderstanding between the Ukrainian army and armed civilians, civilians killed by shellings (which is a war crime of its own) and simply labelled as having been executed, but of course war crime from Russia during the occupation could be an explanation as well.
War is very confusing, friendly fire and civilians caught in crossfire happens ALL THE TIME. Of course Ukraine would say it was the Russians, they would be stupid not to, Ukraine is leading one heck of an information (and also propaganda) war against Russia which grants them all the help from the west.

Again, you should not be so quick to jump to conclusions just because it feels easy and comfortable - and that's exactly why we have specialists and experts doing investigations to make absolutely sure such accusations are not thrown around like that.
If it really was war crimes from Russia this deserves a proper investigation and solid evidence, not ''I saw bodies on TV and they said its war crimes so it must be true!''

The evidence is overwhelming and comes from multiple independent sources.

Bucha massacre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You can play the devil’s advocate if you like and search for alternative explanations, but there’s no reasonable doubt about what has happened in Bucha.

 

[unit-one]

Why did he continue to walk towards the vehicles...

 

[bobba1]

Why did he continue to walk towards the vehicles...

Not sure what it is, but assuming its a Ukrainian daring to walk towards an invading Russian grunt, I guess its because
ITS HIS COUNTRY AND THE RUSSIAN IS INVADING IT!!

The victim blaming from some is abhorrent.
Were you taught that if a woman is beaten by her partner she must of done something to deserve it?

Disgusting...should be ashamed.

 

[dacc10]

You cant capture city without overwhelming dominance in infantry. Siege of city 101. Russia invade Ukraine with lesser forces.

And air superiority would allow for more troops to move in, faster, via plane or helicopter, which could eventually balance the numbers quite a bit, if not to take cities, to circle them and block every way in or out of them, and eventually, anyone inside would have no access to food or water. This, plus constant bombardment by the russian forces, which don't seem to care much about hitting civilian targets, would likely end up with RF victory.

 

[inCloud]

@inCloud are you able to confirm/translate the following:

I am not, because twitter is banned. YouTube/telegram will be fine)

I could see and translate post later after work.

And air superiority would allow for more troops to move in, faster, via plane or helicopter, which could eventually balance the numbers quite a bit, if not to take cities, to circle them and block every way in or out of them, and eventually, anyone inside would have no access to food or water. This, plus constant bombardment by the russian forces, which don't seem to care much about hitting civilian targets, would likely end up with RF victory.

Ukrainian army is around 300k of regular forces and 1mil in reserve. Russian army is 900k, around 300k were used in invasion (part of those are conscripts and national guard without combat training and nonexistent moral). Keep in mind that Russia is BIG and its borders should be defended.

Without capturing cities you cant control Ukraine - its country with high urbanisation.

 

[Whitestar]

@inCloud are you able to confirm/translate the following:

I did a quick OCR and Google Translate on the 5 text pieces. Here are the results.

Spoiler

The Nazis who took up arms in their hands should be destroyed to the maximum
on the battlefield. Significant distinctions should not be made between the VO' and the so-called national battalions, as well as the territorial defense that joined these two types of military formations. All of them are equally involved in the outrageous cruelty s against the civilian population, are equally guilty of the genocide of the Russian people, do not comply with the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis should be exemplarily and exponentially punished. should be carried out total lustration. Any organizations that have associated themselves with the practice of Nazism have been liquidated and banned. However, in addition to the top, a significant part of the masses, which are passive Nazis, accomplices of Nazism, are also guilty. They supported and indulged Nazi power. The just punishment of this part of the population is possible only as bearing the inevitable hardships of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as carefully and prudently as possible in relation to civilians. further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi installations and strict censorship: not only in the political sphere, but necessarily also in the sphere of culture and education. It is through


The peculiarity of modern nazified Ukraine is in amorphousness and ambivalence, which allow Nazism to be disguised as a desire for "independence" and a "European" (Western, pro-American) path of "development" (in reality - to degradation), to assert that in Ukraine "there is no Nazism , only private individual excesses". After all, there is no main Nazi party, no Fuhrer, no full-fledged racial laws (only their truncated version in the form of repressions against the Russian language). As a result - no opposition and resistance to the regime.
However, all of the above does not make Ukrainian Nazism a "light version" of German Nazism during the first half of the 20th century. On the contrary, since Ukrainian Nazism is free from such "genre" (essentially political technology) frameworks and restrictions, it freely unfolds as the fundamental basis of any Nazism - as European and, in its most developed form, American racism. Therefore, denazification cannot be carried out in a compromise, on
based on a formula like "NATO no, EU yes". The collective West itself is the designer, source and sponsor of Ukrainian Nazism, while the Zapadensky Bandera cadres and their "historical memory" are only one of the tools for the Nazification of Ukraine. Ukronazism carries not less, but a greater threat to the world and Russia than German Nazism of the Hitlerite version.


denazification will inevitably also be de-Ukrainization - a rejection of the large-scale artificial inflating of the ethnic component of self-identification of the population of the territories of historical Little Russia and New Russia, begun by the Soviet authorities. Being the fifth tool of the communist superpower, after its fall, artificial ethnocentrism did not remain ownerless. In this official capacity, he passed under the authority of another superpower (the power standing over the states), the superpower of the West. It must be returned to its natural boundaries and deprived of political functionality.


The Bandera elite must be liquidated, its re-education is impossible. The social "bog", which actively and passively supported it by action and inaction, must survive the hardships of the war and assimilate the experience as a historical lesson and atonement for its guilt. Those who did not support the Nazi regime, suffered from it and the war unleashed by him in the Donbass, must be consolidated and organized, V V must become the pillar of the new government, its vertical and horizontal. historical experience shows that the tragedies and dramas of wartime benefit peoples who have been tempted and carried away by the role of an enemy of Russia.


The name "Ukraine" apparently cannot be retained as the title of any fully denazified state entity in a territory liberated from the Nazi regime. The people's republics newly created in the space free from Nazism should and will grow from the practice of economic self-government and social security, restoration and modernization of the life support systems of the population.
In fact, their political aspirations cannot be neutral — expiation of guilt before Russia for treating it as an enemy can be realized only by relying on Russia's processes of restoration, revival and development. No "Marshall Plans" should be allowed for these territories. There can be no "neutrality" in the ideological and practical sense, compatible with denazification. The cadres and organizations that are the instrument of denazification in the new denazified republics cannot but rely on Russia's direct military and organizational support.

 

[unit-one]

Not sure what it is, but assuming its a Ukrainian daring to walk towards an invading Russian grunt, I guess its because
ITS HIS COUNTRY AND THE RUSSIAN IS INVADING IT!!

The victim blaming from some is abhorrent.
Were you taught that if a woman is beaten by her partner she must of done something to deserve it?

Disgusting...should be ashamed.

I wasn't blaming him. I was trying to understand him. Thoughts out loud, I should have explained better. I'm also trying to understand why the vehicles opened fire.

I am not, because twitter is banned. YouTube/telegram will be fine)

I could see and translate post later after work.

It's about this article.

 

[Scaff]

I am not, because twitter is banned. YouTube/telegram will be fine)

I could see and translate post later after work.


Ukrainian army is around 300k of regular forces and 1mil in reserve. Russian army is 900k, around 300k were used in invasion (part of those are conscripts and national guard without combat training and nonexistent moral). Keep in mind that Russia is BIG and its borders should be defended.

Without capturing cities you cant control Ukraine - its country with high urbanisation.

Here you go, screenshots for you, my bad I forgot about the twitter ban.

 

[inCloud]

It's about this article.

Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, criminal deed, 6 years in jail by our law.

 

[35mm]

Again, the most likely explanation IS war crimes done by Russia, but we cannot be sure until the experts have done their investigations. And thats also the proper procedure.

On March 30th, HRW already had an article on Bucha, based on which was easy to already predict the worst:

Devastation and Loss in Bucha, Ukraine

“Vitya has been killed. His body is in the boiler room.” Olena Koval saw the text message when she turned on her phone on March 8. Her husband Viktor, also called Vitya, was dead.

www.hrw.org

By March 4, Russian forces were everywhere in Bucha. They drove tanks and armored vehicles through people’s fences and parked them in residential backyards. There were military vehicles at every house, near every apartment building. “We saw them [military vehicles] driving down the street [Sklozavodska], shooting randomly at windows,” Olena said. “They were just shooting.”

Russian soldiers went from house to house, breaking doors and windows, searching and questioning people. Olena saw them taking people’s clothes and shoes, changing, and dumping their own clothes on the street.

There's also this newer article:

Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas

Human Rights Watch has documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.

www.hrw.org

Not to mention the dozens of news articles already covering the Bucha massacre.

In fact, based on Russia's previous lies and behaviour in this war alone, why would anyone even think "this is fine, let's not jump into conclusions"?

 

[Scaff]

Incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, criminal deed, 6 years in jail.

So basically it's a Kremlin operated news agency calling for a mix of genocide and 're-education', while also stating that the whole of the west is basically Nazi's.

It's not a great leap then with that message in the Russian public's vision, to see the justification Russian soldiers are using to convince themselves that war-crimes are just fine!

 

[unit-one]

Colonel general M. Mizintsev:- "Information from recent radio interceptions. For the last two days 150-200 fighters using humanitarian corridors, changed to civilian clothes, deserted from the city and in small groups of 10-15 people are moving towards Zaporizhzhia. This night, 93 of them were liquidated. Places of others are found by radio bearing. The question of their destruction is a question of a short time." Reddit video.

By the way: about Geneva convention...

 

[Scaff]

what appears to be bodies in the street two weeks before the Russian withdrew

Bucha killings: Satellite image of bodies site contradicts Russian claims

Russia called footage of bodies in Bucha 'staged' but its evidence for this does not stack up.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[35mm]

what appears to be bodies in the street two weeks before the Russian withdrew

Yes, but were they wearing blue bands?

 

[inCloud]

So basically it's a Kremlin operated news agency calling for a mix of genocide and 're-education', while also stating that the whole of the west is basically Nazi's.

It's not a great leap then with that message in the Russian public's vision, to see the justification Russian soldiers are using to convince themselves that war-crimes are just fine!

Yeap.

Colonel general M. Mizintsev:- "Information from recent radio interceptions. For the last two days 150-200 fighters using humanitarian corridors, changed to civilian clothes deserted from the city and in small groups of 10-15 people are moving towards Zaporizhzhia. This night, 93 of them were liquidated. Places of others are found by radio bearing. The question of their destruction is a question of a short time." Reddit video.

By the way: about Geneva convention...

They don't even pretend to look like good guys anymore. WTF

 

[Blitz24]

Apparently there are 52 friendly countries to Russia, all of which will be seeing flights from Russia resuming on April 9th. These countries include Argentina, Algeria, China, Lebanon, Peru, Pakistan and South Africa.

https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-resume-flights-with-52-friendly-countries-pm-says-2022-04-04/

 

[bobba1]

From that transcript, which is a manifesto total ethic cleansing IMO.

"After all, there is no main Nazi party, no Fuhrer, no full-fledged racial laws (only their truncated version in the form of repressions against the Russian language). As a result - no opposition and resistance to the regime."

Its like i tried to articulate earlier on. Basically saying they are nothing like the true Nazi bogymen. But that is why they are so dangerous and must all be wiped off the planet...

We are guilty in the West of over using the word Nazi and Russians are using it now against Ukraine.
Scary stuff, no reasoning with this.
I'm sorry anyone who can't see through this needs to give their head a wobble, even more so in that this is an American forum where Russia is basically calling out USA and UK.
I'm English and will be vocal and critical about my country where needed. But I'll be dammed if i am going to side with Russia on anything.
I'd imagine if i went onto a pro Putin forum slagging him off i'd be banned, so those defending Putin and trying to find fakes in the Ukrainian videos, be grateful you are enjoying what freedom feels like (or as close as we can get to it) on here to spout your nonsense and anti West rhetoric .....

 

[inCloud]

We are guilty in the West of over using the word Nazi

West is guilty for tolerating 2014.

 

[bobba1]

West is guilty for tolerating 2014.

If you mean when Russia land grabbed Crimea, then i agree with you totally.
I'd also biasedly say when Putin ordered henchmen to poison people on UK soil we should of acted harder then too.

I have long before this War winced at Russian world cup, Russian f1 gp with Putin meeting the drivers.

Never liked Putin.
I can see what the West was trying, but you can't reason with Putin, he will always turn round and stab you in the back.

 

[Keef]

As a kid I remember seeing the bodies at Jonestown. They had been dead a couple or few days and they seemed to be bloated.

Now that I think about it, It was really hot in Jonestown and kind of cold in Ukraine.

The timeline is really important for the bloating. Typically rigor mortis - the weird stiffening of muscles - only lasts a few days. The bloating doesn't actually start until rigor mortis begins to subside somewhere in the 3-5 day range. In Ukraine is was indeed cold, averaging about 40F, near recommended refrigerator temps, slowing decomposition even further, likely delaying bloating until after rigor mortis has fully subsided. That timeline to me suggests that these people were probably killed right before or as Russia was pulling out of these areas, or several days before the bodies were found. But the temperatures can triple the normal decomposition time period so it's definitely possible those bodies lay dead for a couple weeks. That combined with evidence that the Russians also killed local animals helps explain why the bodies weren't scavenged quickly.

West is guilty for tolerating 2014.

Russian citizens are guilty for tolerating 2014.

Edit: @dacc10 The reason Russia didn't do any of that - why the skipped over all the first steps of a successful invasion - is because they went in with the expectation that Ukrainians would accept their presence and backlash would be minimal. They wanted to win the hearts and minds of Ukrainians so they avoided typical invasion tactics. Unfortunately for them their assumptions were completely wrong and before they knew it the Ukrainians had their AA weapons up and running, effectively denying air superiority to both countries. Remember that Russia refused to brand this "operation" as an invasion from the beginning, so using proper invasion tactics would make that a hard argument to justify.

Interestingly, we never even saw a show of force overflight by an Su-57. You'd think if Russia wanted to demoralize the Ukrainian people and make them submit then they'd at least show what they were capable of. The US flies and ferries F-22s around the country constantly in an effort to keep crews proficient due to the lack of actual combat use F-22s have gotten over the years so I would think even from an experience standpoint it would've been a good idea to get Su-57 crews involved in some way.

 

[Biggles]

Judging from afar (not something that's easy to do), I would say that there is a lot of ant-Russian propaganda in the western media at the minute. What the Russians are doing is not "genocide" as it's normally understood. Scores of dead bodies scattered through the conflict zone may constitute war crimes , but does not seem to rise to the level of genocide.

"War is hell" is the underlying reality: it's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be significant civilian deaths in a war of this sort, both by shelling of areas that have civilian populations & by rogue military units executing civilians. This seems to happen in every war, not just wars involving the Russians. It obviously happened (on both sides) in WWII, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War etc.

What is really disturbing about the situation in Ukraine, is the basic premise for the war. The idea that it's OK to invade a neighbouring country & kill people who are barely distinguishable from your own people. As I see it, this is the end result of "right wing nationalism" - the willingness to promote your own specialness & the inferiority or wickedness of others to the point where killing them is entirely justifiable.

 

[Keef]

NSFW horrible video shown by Zelensky to the UN Security Council and shared here by C-SPAN. It shows various dead bodies from around Ukraine showing clear signs of decomposition. These are much closer and clearer images than anything we've seen yet. Highly disgusting and frankly I don't recommend watching it but this is the truth so watch at your own risk.

This stuff is straight out of a WW2 documentary. Looks like the Soviets are back. In fact, I think I may stop referring to Russia as Russia - their government doesn't deserve the respect of being referred to as a post-Soviet nation.

The USSR still exists and has made its presence known.

 

[bobba1]

Judging from afar (not something that's easy to do), I would say that there is a lot of ant-Russian propaganda in the western media at the minute. What the Russians are doing is not "genocide" as it's normally understood. Scores of dead bodies scattered through the conflict zone may constitute war crimes , but does not seem to rise to the level of genocide.

"War is hell" is the underlying reality: it's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be significant civilian deaths in a war of this sort, both by shelling of areas that have civilian populations & by rogue military units executing civilians. This seems to happen in every war, not just wars involving the Russians. It obviously happened (on both sides) in WWII, the Vietnam War, the Iraq War etc.

What is really disturbing about the situation in Ukraine, is the basic premise for the war. The idea that it's OK to invade a neighbouring country & kill people who are barely distinguishable from your own people. As I see it, this is the end result of "right wing nationalism" - the willingness to promote your own specialness & the inferiority or wickedness of others to the point where killing them is entirely justifiable.

Personally i think that Putin wants the West to be anti Russian so he can report back to his sheep just how nasty the West is.
He just leaves out the bits that mean they deserve anti Russian sentiment.

I think also constantly mentioning other situations where USA and UK did questionable things omits the amount of people that both before and during and now today question without fear of death or prison what our countries got up to.

These are key differences.
Vast vast majority of Russian's support what Putin does and I should assume agrees that all Westerners are 'bad'.
So, screw them.
The very few brave souls who do oppose Putin in Russia I applaud them, but they are in their thousands only...

 

[Michael88]

One pretty much confirmed unlawful killing, according to drone footage. A BMP shooting a civilian riding his bike.
(Not graphic)



That civilian could be seen in the video footage of Ukrainian soldiers taking back Bucha, laying next to the bicycle, among another dead body.

(I hope posting this video is not against the rules here, as I said, its not graphic. )

 

[Dennisch]

Clearly a nazi. Just wait for the clown to show us the evidence.

 

[Biggles]

Personally i think that Putin wants the West to be anti Russian so he can report back to his sheep just how nasty the West is.
He just leaves out the bits that mean they deserve anti Russian sentiment.

I think also constantly mentioning other situations where USA and UK did questionable things omits the amount of people that both before and during and now today question without fear of death or prison what our countries got up to.

These are key differences.
Vast vast majority of Russian's support what Putin does and I should assume agrees that all Westerners are 'bad'.
So, screw them.
The very few brave souls who do oppose Putin in Russia I applaud them, but they are in their thousands only...

I agree, although it's hard to really know what the true feelings are of the Russian people. However, what has happened in the US with tens of millions of Americans buying into the lies & "nationalism" of the party of Trump, is a worrying indication of how easy it is to manipulate public opinion.

I just turned on CNN where the banner headline proclaimed "Russian depravity" in Bucha. I'm not sure it's particularly helpful language.