Russian Invasion of Ukraine
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Dotini
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In Germany, there seems such outrage over allegations of war crimes that they are considering a full embargo of Russian oil and gas, despite objections from the industrial sector and potential social unrest.
When the US chose to go to war in Iraq, it was under the flag of the "coalition of the willing" (UK, Australia, Poland, etc.)
If we choose to do so, a new coalition of the willing could probably rather swiftly defeat Russia with a full energy embargo combined with state-of-the-art offensive air, land and sea weaponry operated by volunteer trainers assisting Ukrainian forces.
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Not the best Dead Kennedys song tbf
Dotini
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China has accused the US of instigating the war in Ukraine. Elsewhere, I have read that Chinese sources report that the US is attempting to prevent Zelensky from negotiating a cease fire. Probably the US should be very reluctant to allow Zelensky to negotiate any peace agreement which cedes Russian control over Donbas or Crimea.
Keef
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Combined with the overarching theme that China isn't satisfied with the current global status quo which the US is very much interested in maintaining.
@Dotini I think Ukraine should be supplied until they're drowning in equipment, at least enough to continue their war to retake Crimea and Donbas.
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- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
Yes.
Let's check the timeline.
March, 30th: the V-force pulls back from Bucha, according to Russian MoD. But even if you don't believe this:
March, 31st: the mayor of Bucha says officially: the town is clear of Russian troops.
For those who can't read in Ukrainian, I'll translate:
⚡Now official! Mayor of Bucha, Anatoliy Fedoruk, reported that the town is liberated from Russian occupiers!
On the video, he said the day was 31st of March, but it was posted on Ukraina 24 channel the next day, 1st of April. By that time, there were no reports of any dead bodies laying on the streets.
April, 2nd. Ukrainian National Police releases a video where they take control of Bucha. An 8 minute video where they use even drones to observe the town, but still find no corpses laying on the streets (there's still some other NSFW content though).
Another video posted on April, 2nd. A squad of Ukrainian teroborona ("territorial defense" paramilitary groups) is deployed in Bucha. The video is posted by their commander with codename "Boatsman". We can hear the soldiers talking:
- There are guys without blue bands, can we shoot them?
- ****, of course.
Blue bands on sleeves are the sign used by teroborona fighters of Kyiv region. Remember: there were no Russian troops in Bucha for 2-3 days by the time the video is posted. But there's a soldier asking about shooting someone.
April, 3rd. Reports about multiple dead bodies in civilian clothes laying on the streets of Bucha.
All of this raise at least two questions:
1. Why were the bodies laying on the streets of a small town for at least FOUR DAYS (after the Russian withdrawal) unnoticed?
2. Who were those "guys without blue bands" that Boatsman's men were intending to shoot at?
Can you suggest answers for these questions, or you'll just keep repeating "Russia bad, Russians evil, let's bomb Russia"?
That's it. You don't want to hear. What you want is to believe that Russians are blood-thirsty, genocidal scumbags and any criticism of this view is taken with pain, am I right?
McLaren
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What a shocker. One of your sources claims it was done by Nazis. Everything outside of standard warfare in Ukraine, always conveniently committed by Nazis, never Russian troops.
Bucha isn't the only city cited as having war crime accusations, but I guess the Nazis also have people in New York trying to blame poor Russia.
www.reuters.com
Bucha isn't the only city cited as having war crime accusations, but I guess the Nazis also have people in New York trying to blame poor Russia.
Human Rights Watch accuses Russian forces of 'apparent war crimes' in Ukraine
A leading rights group said on Sunday it had documented "apparent war crimes" committed by Russian military forces against civilians in Ukraine.
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The only thing I can really say about the Bucha tragedy is that people are AWFULLY quick to jump to conclusions, just from a few pictures. I hope independent international specialists will shed light on this...incident....or whatever you want to call it, and that the people responsible will face justice and the families of the victims will find some form of peace.
Just because Russia has a history of not caring too much about human rights when they are fighting a war does not mean I immediately believe that everything bad happening is Russia's doing, based on very little evidence from people who have every reason in the world to discredit them, from a conflict that is still ongoing and also super confusing.
Accusing someone of war crimes of this magnitude is extremely serious and requires very thorough, independent investigations. Anything less would be unfair for the people who died there and the grieving families.
Does this make me pro Russia? No. It also does not make me pro Ukraine. I'm trying to be pro reason and common sense.
Lets wait and see what independent specialists say.
Just because Russia has a history of not caring too much about human rights when they are fighting a war does not mean I immediately believe that everything bad happening is Russia's doing, based on very little evidence from people who have every reason in the world to discredit them, from a conflict that is still ongoing and also super confusing.
Accusing someone of war crimes of this magnitude is extremely serious and requires very thorough, independent investigations. Anything less would be unfair for the people who died there and the grieving families.
Does this make me pro Russia? No. It also does not make me pro Ukraine. I'm trying to be pro reason and common sense.
Lets wait and see what independent specialists say.
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I'm sorry, but you missed 1st of April.
And 2nd of April also had reports of dead people.
The photos of bodies show necrosis, blackened skin on faces and hands despite cold weather.
NY Times posted MAXAR satellite photos claiming weeks.
I don't know about what people without blue bands they talked about.
I think that civilians on the streets could have been caught in a crossfire or mortar fire, firefight were reported on the edge of the city.
The tied up people could have been "denazified". Looks like they were searched for extremist tatoos and I saw at least one man having a tattoo, but I couldn't tell what it was. Witnesses also said that Russian soldiers were checking for tattoos and wheather the person participated in ATO or was signed for the territorial defense.
This looks like another mess like that hospital bombing or the MH17 airliner. It's getting really hard to believe Lavrov or someone else from their company when they say that everything is fake and staged.
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ROAD_DOGG33J
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Russian War Report: Kremlin claims Bucha massacre was staged by Ukraine
Dozens of civilians were found in Bucha. Despite overwhelming evidence, the Kremlin is trying to cover it up and distort the story.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
Bucha killings: Satellite image of bodies site contradicts Russian claims
Russia called footage of bodies in Bucha 'staged' but its evidence for this does not stack up.
www.bbc.com
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What Russia needs is right-wing nationalists - Nazis - to defeat the Nazis in Ukraine?
Sounds like a good plan. Because right wing nationalism contributed so much to the world in the 20th century, let's try some more?
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- eran0004
What is the alternative? Ukraine would shoot their own population to stage a fake war crime by Russia? And all the locals agree to play along with that story? That’s seems incredibly unlikely.
Meanwhile we have seen footage of Russian troops knowingly murdering civilians before, both by tanks and by rifles. You don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what’s been going on.
The fact that Russia has been so quick to deny it’s them points to them either being aware of it, or simply not caring about war crimes because there is no chance that they have been able to investigate these claims in such a short time.
Here is a testimony by one of the locals, to Swedish reporters:
Translation: “Inside Bucha, the team meets Galina outside her burned down house. She tells about how the Russian soldiers came to their home and presented themselves as liberators. Then they asked where the nazis were.
- When we couldn’t give them any answers they said all was our fault and that they had to kill us. Our house caught on fire and when my husband went outside to put it out they arrested him, took off his shirt and forced him down on his knees. Then they shot him in the temple.”
More witness reports, from BBC:
We have dead bodies, smoking guns, mean, motif, opportunity, witnesses and a criminal record.
Now let’s take a look at what evidence we have for it NOT being Russia:
We have a testimony from Kremlin saying “wasn’t me”. And that’s pretty much it.
But sure, let’s not jump to conclusions. An invading army notorious for its brutality and lack of respect for the laws of war is retreating from an occupied area after suffering heavy losses and is leaving hundreds of dead civilians behind, many of them having been tied and shot in the head at point blank. Who could possibly have done it? It’s a big mystery. Maybe there was a massive spike in crime and gang violence that just happened to coincide with their presence in the area?
Yes, this absolutely should be investigated because it should be properly documented so that the guilty party can be prosecuted and convicted. But in terms of “who did it”, it’s a closed case.
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- Chrunch_Houston
As a kid I remember seeing the bodies at Jonestown. They had been dead a couple or few days and they seemed to be bloated.
Now that I think about it, It was really hot in Jonestown and kind of cold in Ukraine.
Now that I think about it, It was really hot in Jonestown and kind of cold in Ukraine.
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- Ulricehamn
This is Groznyj all over. And the "It wasn't me" rings as false as then.
Russian army seems to have always been like this, from the havoc on civilian during WWII through every war they fought ever since.
I would have thought that fighting against Ukraine, a people that is pretty much them selves under another flag, they would have shown some compassion.
But no.
I saw the footage from Butja. I am more and more convinced we have to get more involved in this war
Russian army seems to have always been like this, from the havoc on civilian during WWII through every war they fought ever since.
I would have thought that fighting against Ukraine, a people that is pretty much them selves under another flag, they would have shown some compassion.
But no.
I saw the footage from Butja. I am more and more convinced we have to get more involved in this war
inCloud
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Scaff
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Well, the lies about Butja from the Russians are being proven lies by satellite photos, showing the bodies have been there before the Russians withdrew.
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There are so many possible alternatives you could easily find if you just gave it a quick thought.
Civilians caught in crossfire. Militia or armed civilians killed in firefights, a misunderstanding between the Ukrainian army and armed civilians, civilians killed by shellings (which is a war crime of its own) and simply labelled as having been executed, but of course war crime from Russia during the occupation could be an explanation as well.
War is very confusing, friendly fire and civilians caught in crossfire happens ALL THE TIME. Of course Ukraine would say it was the Russians, they would be stupid not to, Ukraine is leading one heck of an information (and also propaganda) war against Russia which grants them all the help from the west.
Again, you should not be so quick to jump to conclusions just because it feels easy and comfortable - and that's exactly why we have specialists and experts doing investigations to make absolutely sure such accusations are not thrown around like that.
If it really was war crimes from Russia this deserves a proper investigation and solid evidence, not ''I saw bodies on TV and they said its war crimes so it must be true!''
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The key aspect was Russia not being able to establish air superiority. If they did, it would a lot harder for the ukrainians. Air superiority would have allowed RF to provide air support, plus would make resuplying forces in the front line much easier. Fortunately, they didn't manage to do so, some speculate that the lack of doctrine in SEAD and DEAD was part of the problem.
Civilians with their hands tied and shot in the back of their heads, half burnt bodies, mass graves, these are not "normal things".
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I have yet to see a source that shows the exact wounds of all the victims - burning bodies and putting them into graves is indeed a very normal thing if you occupy a city in war time.
Also, its not very outlandish to imagine that Ukraine soldiers saw the bodies and thought it would be fuel against Russia to tie some of the bodies up and arrange them in certain ways and say it was war crimes on TV. I would have done that if it helped the war effort for my country.
Countries are now reacting to this incident and because of it consider new sanctions against Russia regarding oil and gas. That was predictable.
Again, the most likely explanation IS war crimes done by Russia, but we cannot be sure until the experts have done their investigations. And thats also the proper procedure.
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