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Russian Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter Rage Racer
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And that's weapons factories in the bit of Ukraine that Russia says wants to be Russia (or at least not Ukraine).
- 13,190
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Mythbusters made a successful boat out of Pykrete.
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- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
And do you visit those Russian websites often enough to make such assessment? You think you know more about the Russian internet than a person who is daily on Russian social networks? Have you personally browsed those Russian websites in search of criticism of RF's actions to judge about this, or it's your media that told you so and you buy into this?
It's not the first time I see you judging things you know little about.
I can, it's just a matter of one click (VPN) on the toolbar of my browser.
No offence, but when Poles demolish the monuments in memory of Soviet soldiers who fought Nazis in Poland (including my great-grandfather who's been awarded a medal for his performance in a battle near Lodz in January 1945), they're asking for a response. I'm not a fan of fighting monuments, but on the background of what Poland is doing - destroying memory (of people who had nothing to do with Putin) for the sake of today's politics - perhaps disassembling the Katyn memorial complex (not the graves) wouldn't be such a bad idea. Maybe it can also save another Polish president from a plane crash...
"It's the Polish land, they can do whatever they want to the Soviet monuments on their soil!" - that's what I hear from the defenders of such actions. Okay, but Katyn is the Russian land, so...
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Do you not appreciate the difference between these two monuments?
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- Rage_Racer_VOLK
- RageRacer48
It doesn’t matter.
If Poles think they can erase Russians from their history, why can’t Russia do the same to Poles? It’s a double edged sword.
What Poland is doing is also a spit on the memory of Ukrainians who died fighting the Nazis away from Poland. Ironically, Poland is now siding with the regime that glorifies the different Ukrainians - those who massacred Poles in Volhynia.
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One is a tribute to foreign liberators and the other is a memorial to war crimes perpetrated by the same country wanting to eliminate said memorial. That's a pretty meaningful difference! But once again, this is a digression without a meaningful point.
You are pathologically incapable of not muddying waters. Deflect/obscure ad-nauseum.
You could not believe that Russia was going to invade Ukraine when it amassed 200,000 troops around Ukraine. Everyone is overreacting! There's no way Russia will invade! They did. So then it was Yeah, but Nazis! You just can't bring yourself to admit that Russia is doing horrible things to Ukraine and Ukrainians and will deflect and defend and accuse and muddy the waters in pursuit of preserving some sort of Russian national virtue. It is impossible for you to accept that your country might just be the bad guy here, despite the overwhelming consensus of all of civilization - and don't bring those who support Russia for politically convenient reasons into this...they are no better. It is only possible to support Russia in this conflict because of blinding nationalism, paranoia, pure nihilistic geopolitical gain, and/or reverence for strongman leaders.
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- NotThePrez
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I think @Liquid is making a pretty educated guess, given that one of your fellow countrymen on this site cannot access Twitter and the like (or at least, not easily), and that your government is actively censoring news about the war, while arresting and assaulting Anti-War protestors.
Getting accurate readings from Russia itself is also a bit difficult due to Russian ISPs blocking access to several websites, alongside the Russian government aggressively putting out propaganda to paint a completely different picture of their invasion.
That really isn't the "gotcha" that you think it is. Are you still able to do that using a regular internet connection without using a VPN, yes or no?
TBH, the fact that there are Soviet statues in Poland is very weird, considering that the Soviets invaded Poland in conjunction with the Nazis, that Stalin knew about the Warsaw Uprising and allowed it to fail (resulting in the near-total destruction of Warsaw itself and the deportation of Jewish civilians to Treblinka and Majdanek), and the aforementioned Katyn massacre, which was carried out during Stalin's purges, discovered by the Nazis of all people (pg 244), and when the Polish Government-In-Exile asked for it to be investigated, Stalin basically told them to piss off and cut off all diplomatic relations, with the Soviet government continuing to cover-up the story until 1990.
Let's also not forget that, in one way or another, Poland had been ruled by some other regime for a little over 200 years, including 2 authoritarian regimes that both wanted a healthy portion of their population removed for being Jewish.
Except that it is their land, and they can ultimately do with it as they please. You sound like the morons down here that get pissy when there talks about removing Confederate statues, statues that glorify a highly treasonous, racist-as-hell regime.
Lolwut, the hell it doesn't. One is a monument put up by the same regime that carried out (and covered up) the massacre to which the other monument was created for! Again, the same regime that took part in invading Poland itself, and later cast its large net of influence over it pretty much by force. There's a pretty significant difference in appreciation for what both of those monuments represent.
If Russia wanted to remove the Katyn monument, then they could, since it's their land. That being said, given the major difference in context and history of that monument compared to the context and history of the aforementioned Soviet statues in Poland, it would say a lot more about the viewpoints of the Russian government than anything else (ignoring the fact that Russia has threatened to impose sanctions on Poland and potentially deny Polish diplomats visas if they did remove Soviet victory statues).
If that is indeed the case, then yeah, by all means call out the Polish and Ukrainian governments for their actions. It still doesn't justify the active aggression that Russia is wielding against Ukraine, under the comically bad excuse of "they have Nazis!" Name me one (major) country that doesn't have some kind of issue when it comes to that. Yours is definitely no exception.
Edit: Holy crap @Joey D, you just scared the hell out of me.
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- 11,303
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- eran0004
“We invaded Poland and massacred its population in the beginning of the war, but hey, at the end, after being rejected as a potential member of the axis forces, we liberated Poland from the Nazis so they should be grateful. If they remove the monuments of our war heros, we will remove the monuments for the people we massacred.”
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inCloud
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I could from my home PC, but vpn is restricted at my work.
IDK, maybe because no one ask what Russians wants? I dont give a flying **** about what Poles do in Poland, but Katyn monument is memorial about russian criminal actions and build, first of all, for us. We should remember what our ancestors did.
Scaff
Moderator
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Are you honestly of the view that Russia is viewed favourable by the majority of Poles?
As someone who lives in a town with a large Polish diaspora and with a close friend who grew up in Warsaw during the 70's and 80's I can assure you Russia is not. It's what happens when rather than liberating a country you occupy them and then install a puppet government. As a direct result of Russian intervention and control Poland didn't have free elections between 1945 and 1989.
And the bad taste comments don't help a bit either.
You forgot to mention that it took until 1990 for Russia to even acknowledge that Katyn was a massacre carried out by Russians, post WW2 Russia annexed parts of Eastern Poland, massacred people, and installed a puppet government!
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Dotini
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ABC news reports recent bombings of Lviv, beginning Russian of Donbas offensive, Azov battalion holding out in Mariupol etc.
Elsewhere I am learning about Chinese alliance with and support for Russian war in Ukraine, evasion of sanctions, supply of weapons, purchases of Russian energy. Who thinks China should be cut off from world trade and finance by harsh sanctions similar to those applied on Russia? Military and intel people may be heading this way already.
Elsewhere I am learning about Chinese alliance with and support for Russian war in Ukraine, evasion of sanctions, supply of weapons, purchases of Russian energy. Who thinks China should be cut off from world trade and finance by harsh sanctions similar to those applied on Russia? Military and intel people may be heading this way already.
Dotini
(Banned)
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This is going to grow into a very big and wide-ranging topic. But let's start with just one small example.
Since Russia’s invasion of his country, Ukraine deputy prime minister Mykhailo Fedorov has written scores of letters to tech companies urging them to quit doing business with what he calls the Kremlin war machine.
Among the latest targets is Chinese drone supplier DJI. Both Ukrainian and Russian militaries have been using DJI’s technology, according to various social media posts and reports, even though DJI says its drones are for hobbyists, police and first responders, not for helping wage war.
Fedorov and Ukraine, however, are determined to suck the $15 billion DJI into the European conflict. Fedorov claimed on Twitter Wednesday that Russia was “using DJI products in order to navigate their missiles.” Fedorov raised particular concerns about DJI’s drone detector tool AeroScope, which he said Russia was deploying to identify Ukraine’s DJI drones from a range of about 30 miles.
Among the latest targets is Chinese drone supplier DJI. Both Ukrainian and Russian militaries have been using DJI’s technology, according to various social media posts and reports, even though DJI says its drones are for hobbyists, police and first responders, not for helping wage war.
Fedorov and Ukraine, however, are determined to suck the $15 billion DJI into the European conflict. Fedorov claimed on Twitter Wednesday that Russia was “using DJI products in order to navigate their missiles.” Fedorov raised particular concerns about DJI’s drone detector tool AeroScope, which he said Russia was deploying to identify Ukraine’s DJI drones from a range of about 30 miles.
China’s DJI And Its Billionaire Chief Put In An Awkward Spot As Both Sides In Ukraine War Use Its Drones
Under pressure from Ukraine to cut off Kremlin drones, DJI says its tech isn’t meant for the military. But with Ukraine and Russia both reportedly using DJI drones — and the U.S. Army, too — the Chinese firm is walking a fine line.
www.forbes.com
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- 11,916
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We went from a Chinese Alliance with Russia to Russia is buying consumer grade drones from a Chinese manufacturer.
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- Blitzbay
- Blitzbay
Next China will demand to not be mentioned at all.
SestoScudo
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I dont want to sound anti Russian but the Soviets green lighted the German invasion of Poland by signing a non aggression pact after that they joined in the invasion alongside the Nazis to get themselves a piece.
Nazis and the Soviets did a military parade together when they captured Poland.
Nobody denies the contribution the Soviets did in defeating Nazi Germany but also another aspect needs to be looked in how they collarborated and signed agreements with the Nazis also how they shared countries that they were going to invade. Soviets did not invade Finland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania for no reason they saw it as part of their territory in the molotov-ribbentrop pact that they were allowed to take as Nazi Germany wont be bothering them as long as the Soviets allow them to take Poland.
Soviets were literally complicit in starting world war 2.
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- 11,916
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I'm also pretty sure that "Liberating Poland" was merely a result of chasing Nazi Germany back to Berlin. For those not well versed with the eastern front this is a pretty illuminating animated map:
Notice the bit at 8 seconds where it says "Soviet Union invades Poland from the east". Even more telling, the Soviet Union prevented the former Polish government (the one in power before the Nazis and Soviets invaded in the first place) from resuming control, instead installing a pro-Soviet communist government which remained for decades. I'm not really sure any of this was in Poland's best interest - particularly the invasion part. I think it would be more accurate to describe what happened as the Soviet Union conquered Nazi Poland for it's own interests.
It's a pretty far cry from the Liberation of France by the Allies, for instance.
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Which is exactly what Russia is doing now. They aren't "liberating", they just want those lands under their control (by puppet government or full annexation).
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- GTP_Shaman
- Othershidapu
You might wanna dig deeper than wiki..
Fowler M (1985) «Winston S. Churchill. PhilosopherandStatesman» (Lanham, MD: UniversityPressofAmerica)
"Winston S. Churchill.
April 24, 1943
"We are definitely opposed to any supposed" "investigation" to be carried out by the International Committee of the Red Cross or any other organization from any other German-dominated region. Such an investigation would be fraudulent and its findings a product of terrorism.
Roberts G «Stalin’sWars» (NewHaven: YaleUniversityPress)page 171-172 page 400
British historian G. Roberts, who presents the documents of the American ambassador Harriman in which are recorded the conclusions of his daughter who was a member of the mission and in which it is noted:
"From the evidence in general and from the testimony, Kathleen and the member of the embassy believes that in any case the massacre was carried out by the Germans "
And many many more...
For someone like you who believes that NATO is a "defensive" alliance I don't expect much to be honest...
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Scaff
Moderator
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The Russians acknowledged it and released papers confirming it in 1990!
Just about the only people denying it are conspiracy theorists and Stalin apologists.
Oh, and G Roberts's own writing disputes the quote above (which when searched for directly returns nothing).
Stalin and the Katyn Massacre
Argues that the crucial context of Stalin's decision to execute the Polish officers and officials was the Soviet-Finnish War of 1939-1940 and fears of Anglo-Soviet intervention. This magnified the problem posed by the Polish POWs, who strongly
www.academia.edu
Edited to further add:
The majority of the text for Stalin's Wars is also on google books...
Stalin's Wars
This breakthrough book provides a detailed reconstruction of Stalin’s leadership from the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939 to his death in 1953. Making use of a wealth of new material from Russian archives, Geoffrey Roberts challenges a long list of standard perceptions of Stalin: his...
books.google.co.uk
...and the entire text can be searched. The phrase "From the evidence in general and from the testimony, Kathleen and the member of the embassy believes that in any case the massacre was carried out by the Germans" appears nowhere in the text at all, however, what we do find on p171 is:
It seems that the quote you posted was an example of, at a most generous interpretation, deliberate quote-mining and cherry-picking from the text, hopefully, this is something you were unaware of, but it does place your personal dig at me in an ironic light, to say the least.
Particularly given that a search of Churchill, Philosopher, and Statesman shows zero results for the phrase "Such an investigation would be fraudulent and its findings a product of terrorism"
Ad-hominem attacks don't strengthen an argument, quite the opposite.
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Joey D
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Can you prove that NATO isn't a defensive alliance through actual sources and not propaganda? Because if you look at the actual treaty, it's very clearly a defensive alliance.
The North Atlantic Treaty
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- NotThePrez
- NotThePrez
The Soviet Union actually admitted to committing the massacre in 1990.
Also, see all of Scaff's post.
Well, acronym in this case, but same difference.
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- 2,980
- Curitiba
Well, if you don't want people tearing down your monuments, how about building them in, you know, your own soil? If I build my dog's house in my neighbour's lawn he's entitled to demolish it and I would look a bit silly if I go after a response.
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