Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[inCloud]

her apartment to a Russian war veteran.

In Vinnytsia? Its western Ukraine, not sure how russian soldier could use it

 

[Joey D]

In Vinnytsia? Its western Ukraine, not sure how russian soldier could use it

I'm going by how the article was translated. I can't read Ukrainian or Russian. I have no idea how a vet would use it, and for all I know, maybe she suspected the Russians taking over the entire country. If that's not the case, then, no she's not providing aid to the enemy. However, she still could very well be committing treason, depending on what her motives were. She fled Ukraine and was pushing Russian propaganda. Russia is well known for using social media to sow discord. As I've said, there's likely more to the story than is being told.

 

[Keef]

Twelve pilots for six planes is totally fine. They'll need quite a bit of rest and this will allow them to stay fresh and spend more time studying the plan on the ground and helping train other pilots.

As for the training speed...not sure what Ukraine expected. Major airlines in the US take 3-4 months to train pilots, and virtually all of those pilots already are very familiar with airline procedures. Several months to learn basic company SOP and a new plane - very basic planes flying very basic profiles - is standard for any country that gives a damn about the safety and expertise of its flight crews. I can't even imagine grasping the capabilities of a fighter jet.



Peacetime capabilities right now. Our artillery production capacity has been whittled down to a skeleton crew since at least Desert Storm. We're not remotely close to being directly involved in the Ukrainian war, much less directly involved in a total war of our own.

There is a bigass automotive factory just down the road from me sitting mostly abandoned. Facilities like that exist all over the midwest. They could be renovated and retooled to build ammunition within a couple years. Potential capacity is unimagineable, we just don't need it.

Or at least that's what I hope. Maybe America is washed up. Maybe we aren't the industrial giant we used to be. Maybe Russia should just write us off because we're weak and pose no threat.

 

[inCloud]

not sure what Ukraine expected

According to Ukrainian fighter jet pilot, 6 months should be ok to retrain from soviet tech to F16.

maybe she suspected the Russians taking over the entire country.

Any crime should be treated accordingly to what harm was done. Comments in OK doesn't harm Ukraine, its some moron in SBU trying to catch hype instead of doing his work of finding really dangerous elements.

 

[Joey D]

Any crime should be treated accordingly to what harm was done. Comments in OK doesn't harm Ukraine, its some moron in SBU trying to catch hype instead of doing his work of finding really dangerous elements.

The Russian government sows discord through social media. They did it and continue to do it in the US, and it's successful. I didn't see the woman's posts though and couldn't begin to tell you what she said. Maybe she said, "Putin is my BFF," or maybe she engaged in a similar campaign that Russians continue to do in the US. Simply posting stuff online can and is dangerous depending on the motive.

 

[Liquid]

"Russia makes 3 million shells a year"

How many good ones?

 

[inCloud]

The Russian government sows discord through social media.

By using paid advertising and thousands of bots, not via 1 old lady ******** on her government.

Simply posting stuff online can and is dangerous depending on the motive.

No, its not.

 

[Joey D]

By using paid advertising and thousands of bots, not via 1 old lady ******** on her government.

No, its not.

Ads and bots are only one way, there are plenty of individuals doing it too. But as I've said, there's more to the story here that neither you nor I know about.

And yes, posting stuff online can be dangerous, depending on the motive. All one has to do is look at the mountains of misinformation and AI "deep-fake" images that circulate. Hell, the January 6th insurrection and QAnon BS have their roots in social media postings.

 

[eran0004]

Same logic applies to RF. You justifying repressions against antiwar Russians with this nonsense.

The same logic applies anywhere. You can’t spread enemy propaganda while your country is being invaded and expect to get away with it. That’s a basic defense policy and has nothing to do with fascism.

If you seek moral justification you need to look elsewhere: why is the country at war and what is at stake if they lose?

 

[inCloud]

But as I've said, there's more to the story here that neither you nor I know about.

Doesn't look like that. Its direct copy of what currently happening here.

Hell, the January 6th insurrection and QAnon BS have their roots in social media postings.

And? Both Ukrainian vatniki and rednecks are social groups that were ignored or alienated by society. Half of Ukraine talking Russian, yet TV is restricted to Ukrainian. Where those would go for info? To Russian TV.

 

[Joey D]

Doesn't look like that. Its direct copy of what currently happening here.

Considering there are two sources and one of the sources cites the other, I'm guessing there is more to the story.

And? Both Ukrainian vatniki and rednecks are social groups that were ignored or alienated by society. Half of Ukraine talking Russian, yet TV is restricted to Ukrainian. Where those would go for info? To Russian TV.

And what? You said posting online can't be dangerous, I gave you examples of how it could. Also, QAnon and Jan 6th are not just rednecks. Plenty of average, ordinary Americans have fallen victim to QAnon because of what they've consumed on social media.

 

[inCloud]

The same logic applies anywhere.

Examples from modern democracies?

You said posting online can't be dangerous, I gave you examples of how it could.

I am not deeply invested into both cases, but it doesn't look like result of individual spreading BS in Facebook analogue.

 

[inCloud]

*Putin
*Dovankov
*Haritonov
*Slutskiy
*Don't know
*Against everyone
*Stay home

6.03-10.03
Double digit to Dovankov and less than 76%(2018 result) for Putin are realistic goals. Second tour looks like wonder, but theoretically possible.

 

[Dennisch]

I like how you're still optimistic that there's any chance of an actual election. Putin's as much of a dictator as any dictator in history. He'll remain in power until he's dead.

 

[Blitz24]

View attachment 1336175
*Putin
*Dovankov
*Haritonov
*Slutskiy
*Don't know
*Against everyone
*Stay home

6.03-10.03
Double digit to Dovankov and less than 76%(2018 result) for Putin are realistic goals. Second tour looks like wonder, but theoretically possible.

Would be nice if people could vote for any of the last 3 and have one of those options win.

 

[inCloud]

I like how you're still optimistic

I am hoarding foreign cash, nothing optimistic.

any chance of an actual election

Unlike Belarus, electoral system still alive. You can choose between Putin and not Putin. And we will know results.

He'll remain in power until he's dead

Not sure what could happen if he will be <40%

Would be nice if people could vote for any of the last 3 and have one of those options win.

People could choose between "against all" and vote for Dovankov, its legit way to choose peace. Stay home is vote for Putin, basically.

 

[eran0004]

Examples from modern democracies?

For example in Sweden (treason or treachery), Finland (treason), Switzerland (foreign activities against the security of Switzerland) and United Kingdom (high treason).

 

[Meythia]

Not sure what could happen if he will be <40%

That is why you are said to be optimistic about a fair election process.
Just having an election doesnt mean it works as intended in the purpose of the people choosing their leader.
You know sometimes things are just for show? Like who exactly is counting all the votes and are you sure they are not told at gunpoint "putin1, putin2, putin3, some else, putin4"

 

[inCloud]

For example in Sweden (treason or treachery), Finland (treason), Switzerland (foreign activities against the security of Switzerland) and United Kingdom (high treason).

Any similar cases in UK during Falkland war? Lets imagine that UK court seized house of old lady living in Buenos Aires with dual citizenship of both countries for posting something like "Falklands is Argentina", "Thatcher is butcher, "Galtieri is great" in Argentinian gazette. BTW, Odnoklassniki is banned in Ukraine.

Not like I think about '80s UK when someone say modern democracy, but that's closest to our case.

Like who exactly is counting all the votes and are you sure they are not told at gunpoint "putin1, putin2, putin3, some else, putin4"

I know who doing this, its teachers from our local schools. No one holding them at gunpoint. There could be fraud, but not like in Belarus where no one counting votes at all. For the most part count is legit, at best system could add half of votes of those who doesn't came or voted digitally to Putin (plus few regions working similar to Belarus, Chechnya for example).

 

[eran0004]

Any similar cases in UK during Falkland war? Lets imagine that UK court seized house of old lady living in Buenos Aires with dual citizenship of both countries for posting something like "Falklands is Argentina", "Thatcher is butcher, "Galtieri is great" in Argentinian gazette. BTW, Odnoklassniki is banned in Ukraine.

Are you asking if that hypothetical case actually occurred or what would have happened if it had occurred?

I don’t believe any such thing did occur, but if it would have had then it’s possible that she could have been found guilty of treason, certainly if she was a British citizen at the time. “Lord Haw-Haw” was hanged for high treason after broadcasting German propaganda during WWII, and technically he was basically convicted because of his possession of a fake passport (he wasn’t actually a UK citizen, but he had a fake British passport and as such he was found to enjoy the protection of the crown, which made him liable for treason).

 

[MatskiMonk]

Not like I think about '80s UK when someone say modern democracy, but that's closest to our case.

If the person in question had dual citizenship, we'd revoke that citizenship and keep them out of the country. Not sure how that affects any assets they hold, the Police and the Home Office can sell it off and pocket the money if it's part of a crime, but in the case of people we've recently stripped of their citizenship, it's not gone to criminal trial, it simply happened at the behest of the Home Secretary.

 

[inCloud]

during WWII

Not sure how its relevant to current situation.

 

[Clinton Ducks]

"Russia makes 3 million shells a year"

How many good ones?

It’s dangerous to underestimate your enemies

 

[eran0004]

Not sure how it’s relevant to current situation.

Was the UK a fascist state back in 1945? Was Churchill just as bad as Hitler? No, of course not.

That’s how it’s relevant.

 

[inCloud]

Was the UK a fascist state back in 1945?

By today standards - yes. Chemical castration for homosexuality in UK(Turing), segregation in US, women suffrage in Switzerland on federal level became a thing since 1971. World changed alot since WWII.

 

[eran0004]

By today standards - yes. Chemical castration for homosexuality in UK(Turing), segregation in US, women suffrage in Switzerland on federal level became a thing since 1971. World changed alot since WWII.

None of those things are fascism. The world has progressed since then, yes, but spreading enemy propaganda during wartime is still a crime (and that is still not an indicator of fascism).

 

[inCloud]

None of those things are fascism. The world has progressed since then, yes, but spreading enemy propaganda during wartime is still a crime (and that is still not an indicator of fascism).

Racism and homophobia are two big things in fascism idealogy, oppression of political opposition by force another big thing. I am not saying that UK was fascist regime, but fascist behaviour was common thing for most countries in 1940s(including UK).

 

[Imari]

It’s dangerous to underestimate your enemies

Indeed. Russian manufacturing is bad but making artillery shells is not that complicated. I wouldn't put money on their reject rate being high enough to be meaningful.

 

[eran0004]

Racism and homophobia are two big things in fascism idealogy, oppression of political opposition by force another big thing. I am not saying that UK was fascist regime, but fascist behaviour was common thing for most countries in 1940s(including UK).

Fascism is about the myth of a nation in decline and the need for a strong, authoritarian and ruthless leader to take the nation into a new glorious era, to build a new empire through the use of military force and violence against any perceived enemy of the nation. Putin is a prime example of a contemporary fascist, the way he speaks of western decadence, the desire he shows for rebuilding the Russian Empire, the use of violence against his political rivals and the use of military force to help him achieve his goals.

You can’t isolate a few elements of fascism and say that “these are common in fascism, so any society which share these traits are also fascist to some degree”, you need to look at the whole picture and the underlying ideology.

Racism and homophobia are undeniably bad and it’s a good thing that there has been progress on those areas in the western world during the past century, but to say that society was more fascist 80-100 years ago is not accurate, it would be better to say that it was less liberal than today.

Anyway, all of that is irrelevant to the discussion, because the laws against enemy propaganda in wartime are not conditioned by the degree to which the society is racist and homophobic (or even fascist) at the time of application. It’s an undeniable fact that those laws exist in modern democracies - (they are an essential mechanism to protect the defence capabilities in wartime) - and they cannot be taken as an indication of fascism. It’s true that a democratic society in war becomes less liberal than in peacetime, but that doesn’t mean it becomes more fascist.

 

[inCloud]

take the nation into a new glorious era

Emm, no. He doesn't say anything about future. UK in first 20s was waaay closer to fascist than Putin's RF.

You can’t isolate a few elements of fascism and say that “these are common in fascism, so any society which share these traits are also fascist to some degree”, you need to look at the whole picture and the underlying ideology.

You basically did this.

It’s an undeniable fact that those laws exist in modern democracies

Law is words on paper. Its people who interprets them. Its not democracy, if you can't freely share your opinion. Its tyranny. War time censorship is for preventing spread of intel, not for oppression of opposition.

I still don't see any examples of similar cases in modern democracy. Practices of WWII have nothing in common with modern democracy.