Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[inCloud]

My view on what Vance said:
Ukraine lossing ground and people, next deal would be worse anyway. Considering priceless part of Kursk region under Ukrainian control, final tradeoff could be better than what they had in Istanbul(part Zaporozhye for part of Kursk?). NATO isn't possible until they gave up on territory officially(impossible) or take it back(impossible until Putin is here), in other words neutral military status doesn't mean anything. Integration of Ukraine into EU isn't problem according to Putin.

Plan isn't detailed, but if done properly, could work way better than what Biden doing. Not sure what Harris could offer, lady could surprise.

 

[Blitz24]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/09/12/vance-trump-ukraine-russia-war-plan/

This is not a peace plan. If Ukraine agrees to this, they still lose 20% of their country that Russia occupies & aren't allowed strengthen their bond with any allies whilst Russia rebuilds itself and more than likely starts another offense under the "agreement" Ukraine won't have support. If Ukraine doesn't agree to this, Trump will most certainly stop providing any aid.

I mean, it was Russia who reneged on its word from the 1994 Budapest memorandum so clearly they won't try again ever.

 

[inCloud]

I mean, it was Russia who reneged on its word from the 1994 Budapest memorandum so clearly they won't try again ever.

Technically, at this point everyone did.

 

[eran0004]

Technically, at this point everyone did.

How did the UK and the US renege on the Budapest memorandum?

 

[Keef]

That's what I figured would happen. Good. Clean house.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

That's what I figured would happen. Good. Clean house.

About damn time, you cannot win wars by just defending and you sure as hell won't stop a bully by letting he get away with the intimidating the whole continent.

A woman from the west being instrumental in a Putin defeat. That would be some square for Z heads to circle.

 

[inCloud]

How did the UK and the US renege on the Budapest memorandum?

According to Memorandum RF,US and UK weaponry shouldn't be used against Ukraine. Do we count Ukrainian citizens as part of Ukraine? If we do, then they renege on Memorandum.

That's what I figured would happen.

Would be nice to hear something from Harris herself, not ex-ambassador.

 

[eran0004]

According to Memorandum RF,US and UK weaponry shouldn't be used against Ukraine.
Do we count Ukrainian citizens as part of Ukraine? If we do, then they renege on Memorandum.

It’s actually incredible how such a short statement can be so wrong in so many different ways:

1. The treaty is about the souvereignity of Ukraine, it doesn’t forbid use of weapons against Ukrainian citizens.

2. There’s an exception for self defense and actions in accordance with the UN charter.

3. The US and UK have not used any weapons in the Russian war against Ukraine. They have donated weapons to Ukraine, which Ukraine has then used in the defense against Russia.

To conclude: Russia is the only country to violate the Budapest memorandum and it’s ridiculous to claim that “yeah but so has everyone else”.

 

[inCloud]

The treaty is about the souvereignity of Ukraine, it doesn’t forbid use of weapons against Ukrainian citizens.

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain andNorthern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrainfrom the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance withthe Charter of the United Nations

There’s an exception for self defense and actions in accordance with the UN charter.

Someone attack US or UK? UN send peacekeepers into Ukraine equipped with UK or US weaponry?

The US and UK have not used any weapons in the Russian war against Ukraine.

At least, UK have 100% control at how their long range precision weaponry used. Most likely, ATACAMS also programmed by US.

it’s ridiculous to claim that “yeah but so has everyone else”.

Its you words, not mine. I said,

Technically, at this point everyone did.

Memorandum just didn't work, it was useless from start.

 

[inCloud]

TIFF Statement regarding the Canadian documentary Russians at War

TIFF is a charitable cultural organization with a mission to transform the way people see the world, through film.

tiff.net

Effectively immediately, TIFF is forced to pause the upcoming screenings of Russians at War on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday as we have been made aware of significant threats to festival operations and public safety. While we stand firm on our statement shared yesterday, this decision has been made in order to ensure the safety of all festival guests, staff, and volunteers.

Prominent anti-Kremlin oligarch accused of ordering attacks on Navalny associates â Novaya Gazeta Europe

Associates of the late Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny have accused Russian billionaire Leonid Nevzlin of ordering a hammer attack on the former chairman of Navalnyâs Anti-Corruption Foundation (FBK), Leonid Volkov, in Vilnius earlier this year.

novayagazeta.eu

Associates of the late Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny have accused Russian billionaire Leonid Nevzlin of ordering a hammer attack on the former chairman of Navalny’s Anti-Corruption Foundation (FBK), Leonid Volkov, in Vilnius earlier this year.

братскийнарод.jpg

 

[eran0004]

Someone attack US or UK? UN send peacekeepers into Ukraine equipped with UK or US weaponry?

Ukraine was invaded by Russia and has been defending against that invasion ever since, in accordance with the UN charter. The US and UK are supporting Ukraine’s right to self defense by supplying them with weapons, also in accordance with the UN charter. Those weapons now belong to Ukraine, not the US or the UK. So Ukraine is using their own weapons to defend themselves against the Russian invasion. It’s impossible to interpret that as the US and UK attacking Ukraine and I have no idea why you’re trying so hard to make it look that way.

 

[inCloud]

It’s impossible to interpret that as the US and UK attacking Ukraine

none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations

Once again. Their weapons being used to kill Ukrainian citizens. IMO, its violation of what being signed by UK and US. Does it mean that UK and US doing something wrong? No. My point here is that only way to provide security to Ukraine was by violating what was signed. People who signed this crap are traitors that traded Ukrainian security for false sense of security and ,basically, limited UK and US capabilities to protect Ukraine integrity.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

It’s impossible to interpret that as the US and UK attacking Ukraine and I have no idea why you’re trying so hard to make it look that way.

We all know why: "Russia is victim", somehow.

 

[eran0004]

Once again. Their weapons being used to kill Ukrainian citizens.

Once again, that's completely irrelevant, for three reasons:

1. The memorandum prohibits attacks against the Ukrainian state, its independence, souvereignity and territorial integrity. It does not prohibit the use of these wepons to kill Ukrainian citizens.

2. It's Ukraine's weapons.

3. There's an exception for self defense in accordance with the UN charter, which is exactly what Ukraine is doing.

IMO, its violation of what being signed by UK and US.

The problem with that opinion is that it's clearly wrong.

Does it mean that UK and US doing something wrong? No. My point here is that only way to provide security to Ukraine was by violating what was signed.
People who signed this crap are traitors that traded Ukrainian security for false sense of security and ,basically, limited UK and US capabilities to protect Ukraine integrity.

That's an idiotic and perverse interpretation. The memorandum provides security assurances towards Ukraine, it does not prohibit anybody from coming to Ukraine's aid in the event of an armed aggression against them. In simple terms it says that "now that Ukraine are getting rid of their nuclear weapons, we promise in return to respect their independence and souvereignity and to not attack them." That's the purpose and intent of the memorandum and there's nothing in the text that explicitly nor implicitly limits the UK and the US from aiding Ukraine's right to defend itself.

 

[inCloud]

The memorandum prohibits attacks against the Ukrainian state, its independence, souvereignity and territorial integrity. It does not prohibit the use of these wepons to kill Ukrainian citizens.

What is Ukrainian state if not its citizens?

It's Ukraine's weapons.

Its not. Ukraine doesn't produce it and doesn't use it freely. Ukraine is warehouse and logistic center for SCALPS and STORMSHADOWS, not someone who can use them.

There's an exception for self defense

Self-defense of who? No one attacked UK and US, once again. Memorandum doesn't state anything that Ukraine should do

That's the purpose and intent of the memorandum and there's nothing in the text that explicitly nor implicitly limits the UK and the US from aiding Ukraine's right to defend itself.

Nothing limits from providing aid, not use UK and US made and operated weaponry against Ukrainian citizens.

 

[inCloud]

Z-Bloggers reporting massive attack at Belgorod region, similar to what was done in Kursk. Could be psyop

 

[eran0004]

What is Ukrainian state if not its citizens?

A political entity, a sovereign nation and a territory.

Its not.

It is.

Ukraine doesn't produce it

Owner != producer.

and doesn't use it freely.

Because some of the weapons are donated with certain conditions. It’s still Ukraine’s weapons and it’s still Ukraine who are using them.

Ukraine is warehouse and logistic center for SCALPS and STORMSHADOWS, not someone who can use them.

Wait, I thought you just said that Ukraine is a citizen. How can a citizen be a warehouse and logistic center?

Self-defense of who?

Of Ukraine. Have you been living under a rock for the past two and a half years?

No one attacked UK and US, once again.

Nobody claimed they have been, so I have no idea why you think it’s a good idea to bring that up.

Memorandum doesn't state anything that Ukraine should do

Because the memorandum is about providing security assurances to Ukraine.

not use UK and US made and operated weaponry against Ukrainian citizens.

There is no such prohibition in the memorandum.

 

[inCloud]

A political entity, a sovereign nation

Citizens, basically

Because some of the weapons are donated with certain conditions.

Cruise missiles without ability to choose where they would fly is dead weight, not weapon. Its not full ownership, if you cant use something for what it should do.

Wait, I thought you just said that Ukraine is a citizen.

I said Ukraine is its citizens. I didnt say citizens couldn't own land directly or indirectly as public property. Ukraine without Crimea or Donetsk still Ukraine. Ukraine without its citizens wouldn't be a thing.

Of Ukraine

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain andNorthern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrainfrom the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance withthe Charter of the United Nations

Selfdefence of The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland not selfdefence of Ukraine. Memorandum didn't limit Ukraine in anyway, but US,RF and UK(kinda considering all of them members of UN SC with veto right).

Because the memorandum is about providing security assurances to Ukraine.

To people of Ukraine. Citizens of Ukraine.

There is no such prohibition in the memorandum.

Because the memorandum is about providing security assurances to Ukraine.

L.O.L

 

[Liquid]

Ukraine without Crimea or Donetsk still Ukraine.

Russia without Kaliningrad, Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, Ossetia and Abkhazia would still be Russia (literally the biggest country in the world) but you try telling Putin to give them all up.

Your words ring hollow when senior Russian politicians such as Medvedev believe Ukraine "shouldn't exist in any way at all".

and that [no UK nor US] weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance withthe Charter of the United Nations

Have they been used against Ukraine so far? I don't see a limitation in your quote about UK and US weapons being used for Ukraine, in defence of Ukraine.

As ever, any whataboutism always comes down to the fact that if Russia just ****ed off and left Ukraine alone, none of this would be happening; no UK and US weapons used against Russia, no bombings in Kursk and Rostov, no Russian targets being hit, no new NATO neighbours in Finland and Sweden.

The tone of voice should be noticable with that last list. It is completely self-inflicted on Russia's part.

 

[inCloud]

Russia without Kaliningrad, Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, Ossetia and Abkhazia would still be Russia

Yeap

but you try telling Putin to give them all up

Why would I? If those who live in those places would like to, I dont see any reasons to stop them.

senior Russian politicians such as Medvedev

🤣

used against Ukraine so far

Thats most notable example of usage that cause civilian casualties within Ukrainians

June 2024 Sevastopol missile attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

whataboutism

Not like I justifying what RF did with what US or UK did after RF violated memorandum 9 years ago, I am not idiot. Whole thing was about harmful nature of Memorandum, not about someone doing good or bad by violating it. Its not my problem that eran0004 is stubborn enough to pray the chorus while being unable to read.

no new NATO neighbours in Finland and Sweden

I like them being in NATO, feel waaaay safer that way. Last thing I want is our midget starting another Winter War and my neighborhood being bombed by missile from Finnish F18.

 

[eran0004]

Citizens, basically

No. Ukraine != Ukrainians. An American police officer shooting at a Ukrainian tourist in Los Angeles is not a breach of the Budapest memorandum. The armed forces of Ukraine shooting American-made weapons at invading Russian forces is not a breach of the Budapest memorandum.

Cruise missiles without ability to choose where they would fly is dead weight, not weapon. It’s not full ownership, if you cant use something for what it should do.

Why would you have to have full control of that to be considered the owner of it? The US may be imposing some limitations on how the weapons are used, but in the end it’s still Ukraine who are using them and it’s Ukraine who decided whether they will be used or not.

I said Ukraine is its citizens. I didnt say citizens couldn't own land directly or indirectly as public property. Ukraine without Crimea or Donetsk still Ukraine. Ukraine without its citizens wouldn't be a thing.

Great, then I’m sure it will be easier for you to recognise the fact that the treaty is about the country of Ukraine rather than the individual citizens of Ukraine.

Selfdefence of The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland not selfdefence of Ukraine.

No, it’s the self defence of Ukraine. The US and UK are aiding their self defence, in accordance with the UN charter.

Memorandum didn't limit Ukraine in anyway, but US,RF and UK(kinda considering all of them members of UN SC with veto right).

No, they signed the memorandum because of their status as nuclear powers. To say “hey, it’s great that you want to get rid of your nuclear weapons. We realise that it makes you more vulnerable now, so in return we promise to not attack you.”

To people of Ukraine. Citizens of Ukraine.

No, the country of Ukraine.

 

[inCloud]

An American police officer shooting at a Ukrainian tourist in Los Angeles is not a breach of the Budapest memorandum.

Because its self-defense

The armed forces of Ukraine shooting American-made weapons at invading Russian forces is not a breach of the Budapest memorandum.

Nope. Because I talking about cruise missiles that cant be used by Ukrainians

The US may be imposing some limitations on how the weapons are used

It cant be used without US controlled targeting system. If US dont want, ATACAMS would not fly anywhere.

Great, then I’m sure it will be easier for you to recognise the fact that the treaty is about the country of Ukraine rather than the individual citizens of Ukraine

County without citizens isnt Ukraine. Ultimate role of Ukraine as state is defense its citizens rights. First and most important right is right to live.

No, they signed the memorandum because of their status as nuclear powers. To say “hey, it’s great that you want to get rid of your nuclear weapons. We realise that it makes you more vulnerable now, so in return we promise to not attack you.”

It how it should work if being done properly. In reality it couldn't protect Ukraine from any state with veto right. Only use I can think of is Turkey attack on Crimea, which was almost impossible considering Crimea was naval base of RF.

No, it’s the self defence of Ukraine.

Gosh, I dont see any reason to continue if you in denial this much.

 

[eran0004]

Because its self-defense

Not in a way that is regulated by the UN charter. The reason why that police officer wouldn’t be in violation of the Budapest memorandum is because it’s about relations and actions between countries - not individuals or nationalities.

Nope. Because I talking about cruise missiles that cant be used by Ukrainians

Then what are you talking about?

It cant be used without US controlled targeting system. If US dont want, ATACAMS would not fly anywhere.

Relevance? It’s Ukraine who uses them to defend their country.

County without citizens isnt Ukraine.

Sure, just like a car without tyres wouldn’t be a car. But that doesn’t mean that the tyre is a car. Just accept that the memorandum refers to Ukraine as a country and not to individual Ukrainian citizens.

Ultimate role of Ukraine as state is defense its citizens rights. First and most important right is right to live.

Relevance?

It how it should work if being done properly. In reality it couldn't protect Ukraine from any state with veto right. Only use I can think of is Turkey attack on Crimea, which was almost impossible considering Crimea was naval base of RF.

Turkey is not a part of the Budapest memorandum.

Gosh, I dont see any reason to continue if you in denial this much.

Oh the irony.

 

[Boston77]

Man o man, @eran0004, I really, really appreciate your efforts to continue to correct this individual. It’s a losing effort.
When continually having evidence plopped straight into his lap, he won’t see.
We’ve been down this road with him on numerous occasions.
He just won’t except a western view. No matter how many sources we give him.
These weapons were donated to Ukraine 🇺🇦 may they destroy Putins regime.
Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦

Ps. Just wait. Here he goes again

 

[Dennisch]

 

[unit-one]

That's a huge ammo site to the right of the town.

 

[inCloud]

That's a huge ammo site to the right of the town.

2.8 earthquake was registered when biggest explosion happened.

 

[unit-one]

Update on the ammo site.

The three guys standing there with the sounds of explosions in the background.

 

[inCloud]

Ultimate Kremlin weapon is released in beta. Since today any man from 18 to 70 could find himself on site. If you here, you can't leave RF, you driving licence is annulated and you can't sell your real estate until you visit military commissioner. In combination with ultimate database of all russians, their relatives, their jobs and income this becomes ultimate soldier printing machine. No more fat ass people in ugly green uniform hunting younglings. Just put his name on list and wait till he comes.

Currently this thing works for few regions and leaking Russians data like crazy, but in November this should start working in full power for whole country.

 

[Dennisch]

There are some convincing rumours that the Ukrainians have encircled up to 6000 orcs in the Kursk region.