Russian Invasion of Ukraine

  • Thread starter Rage Racer
  • 10,217 comments
  • 619,377 views
Veinz
I just cannot see Russia going back to pre 2014
Click to expand...
Sure, but this is what negotiations (and sanctions) are actually for - and remember, Russia wouldn't even be at the table if it was still so confident as it was in February 2022, and the sanctions weren't working.

I can't see Russia wanting to give back such territory as it gained in this illegal invasion, never mind the last one. Primarily because we all just turned a blind eye to the last one and collectively went "okay, you can have this one, Vladdy, but don't go taking any more", and they just went and did it anyway. In fact they'll probably just demand back some of the Ukrainian territory that they captured and were subsequently repelled from.


Nonetheless it's weird to suggest that Ukraine wanting its own territory back from an illegal invasion we all remember happening is "high expectations".
 
Famine
Nonetheless it's weird to suggest that Ukraine wanting its own territory back from an illegal invasion we all remember happening is "high expectations".
Click to expand...
It is high expectations because Russia still has the stronger hand. Their army is incompetent and corrupt but they're able to grind it out for longer than Ukraine can. They'll do that before giving up Crimea.

Do you want NATO to send troops there? I certainly don't.
 
Veinz
It is high expectations because Russia still has the stronger hand.
Click to expand...
Might makes right, huh?
Veinz
Their army is incompetent and corrupt but they're able to grind it out for longer than Ukraine can.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure people were saying that in March 2022. Also they've been so hard-up for actual troops since day one that they used Nazi militia, prisoners, and most recently North Koreans.

Putin's like Trump: big, strongman, "alpha" male act, backed up by... button mushroom and pederasty. And getting away with it for years because nobody actually stops them.
Veinz
Do you want NATO to send troops there? I certainly don't.
Click to expand...
This is a line straight from Putin. It's one he's been using since 2014, and more prominently in the lead-up to the three-day special operation, and then again every time it founders - waving his little nuclear sabre about what would happen if NATO entered Ukraine.

NATO has no business being in any nation that isn't a member nation for any defence purposes. If Ukraine was in NATO, then yes I would want NATO to send troops there, per its obligation.

Of course Russia shouldn't be in Ukraine either...
 
Famine
Might makes right, huh?
Click to expand...
This is the reality of the situation. I'm not saying it's right or fair.
Famine
Pretty sure people were saying that in March 2022. Also they've been so hard-up for actual troops since day one that they used Nazi militia, prisoners, and most recently North Koreans.


Putin's like Trump: big, strongman, "alpha" male act, backed up by... button mushroom and pederasty. And getting away with it for years because nobody actually stops them.
Click to expand...
They still have more than Ukraine.
Famine
This is a line straight from Putin. It's one he's been using since 2014, and more prominently in the lead-up to the three-day special operation, and then again every time it founders - waving his little nuclear sabre about what would happen if NATO entered Ukraine.

NATO has no business being in any nation that isn't a member nation for any defence purposes. If Ukraine was in NATO, then yes I would want NATO to send troops there, per its obligation.

Of course Russia shouldn't be in Ukraine either...
Click to expand...
They're going down that road at this rate. Even though Ukraine has no chance at joining NATO.
 
Veinz
This is the reality of the situation.
Click to expand...
That certainly seems to be the way that the country that invaded the other country, saying it'd take three days to conduct its special operation (eight years into a war it started) but which they're now having to negotiate about three years down the line is wanting to paint it.

How real that is remains to be seen, but winners don't need to negotiate...
Veinz
I'm not saying it's right or fair.
Click to expand...
What would be right or fair?

Why would it not be rational to expect what's right or fair to be agreed upon by parties meeting to agree on what's right and fair?
Veinz
They still have more than Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Which doesn't appear to have allowed them to achieve their aims, over-running by a factor of almost 365 times.

I know government projects over-run time and budget all the time, but sheesh.
Veinz
They're going down that road at this rate. Even though Ukraine has no chance at joining NATO.
Click to expand...
Why? Most of NATO wants Ukraine in NATO and Ukraine wants to be in NATO. The three-day special operation got Finland over the line, and the last Russian troops in Finland are buried six deep...
 
Veinz
It is high expectations because Russia still has the stronger hand. Their army is incompetent and corrupt but they're able to grind it out for longer than Ukraine can. They'll do that before giving up Crimea.
Click to expand...
The 70,000 or so Ukrainians killed in this war so far is a relative drop in the ocean compared to the 3-5 million killed* the last time Russia, in the form of the Soviet Union, rolled into Ukraine. This hasn't been forgotten by the Ukrainian people. They don't wish to be part of Russia. They've been there in living memory and didn't much enjoy it.

*due to famine. Famine did it.
 
Veinz
Ukraine deserves to be consulted on peace terms.
Click to expand...
No, Ukraine deserves to dictate the peace terms.
Veinz
But lets be honest, they have no negotiating power here. They can't afford to defend themselves but Zelenskyy still has some pretty high expectations, like pre-2014 borders. If he stands firm on that then this war will drag on for years.
Click to expand...
That's not an unreasonable demand. In fact, that's the baseline for what would be an acceptable outcome. The war may drag on for years, but it's not Ukraine's fault.
Veinz
When this war started, the average age of a Ukrainian solider was between 30-35 years, now it's 43-45.
Click to expand...
Meaning what?
Veinz
What are they going to do when they get really low on manpower to defend themselves?
Click to expand...
Manpower is not an issue for Ukraine. What they need is weapons.
Veinz
Sending NATO troops should not be an option either unless people really want WW3.
Click to expand...
If Russia wants to start WW3 then what can we do to prevent it?
Veinz
This war has to end.
Click to expand...
Sure, but not with a Russian victory.
 
Last edited:
Famine
That certainly seems to be the way that the country that invaded the other country, saying it'd take three days to conduct its special operation (eight years into a war it started) but which they're now having to negotiate about three years down the line is wanting to paint it.

How real that is remains to be seen, but winners don't need to negotiate...
Click to expand...
There are no winners here. Russia has made an embarrassment of themselves on the world stage again, but they're still a nuclear superpower with a lunatic leader.
Famine
What would be right or fair?

Why would it not be rational to expect what's right or fair to be agreed upon by parties meeting to agree on what's right and fair?
Click to expand...
In a perfect world then Russia would concede those territories and pinky to swear to not invade again, then they could live happily ever after. But there's no way Russia is going to play nice, they're Russians.
Famine
Why? Most of NATO wants Ukraine in NATO and Ukraine wants to be in NATO. The three-day special operation got Finland over the line, and the last Russian troops in Finland are buried six deep...
Click to expand...
Most is not enough, it has to be unanimous.
 
In fairness, Russia now has something it didn't have at the start of the SMO, the support of the USA.

This is straight up racketeering. Trump will agree to massive concessions on Ukraine's behalf in order to be able to do business with Russia again. Ukraine breaks those terms, as it should, and then America sanctions Ukraine and takes the $500 Billion in valuable minerals Trump has told Zelenskyy he wants. Trump went on TV to say he encourages Putin to do what he wants to countries that don't pay their way.

America cannot be trusted, it has become an aggressor in this conflict under the pretence of peace.
 
Veinz
There are no winners here.
Click to expand...
Which is rather my point. Russia continues to present itself as the mighty warrior on course to an inevitable victory, but can't overcome a nation that ceded from it 35 years ago (which, let's face it, is what this is all actually about) with a dramatically smaller armed forces.

Russia pretends to have the strong hand. In reality its war would have been over a year ago without support from China, Iran, and North Korea.
Veinz
Russia has made an embarrassment of themselves on the world stage again, but they're still a nuclear superpower with a lunatic leader.
Click to expand...
Yup, playing the strongman and getting away with it because nobody will challenge them on it. Just like Trump.
Veinz
In a perfect world then Russia would concede those territories and pinky to swear to not invade again, then they could live happily ever after.
Click to expand...
I didn't ask what was perfect. I asked what was right and fair - your words:
Famine
Veinz
I'm not saying it's right or fair.
Click to expand...
What would be right or fair?

Why would it not be rational to expect what's right or fair to be agreed upon by parties meeting to agree on what's right and fair?
Click to expand...
Veinz
But there's no way Russia is going to play nice, they're Russians.
Click to expand...
Seems rather Russophobic. There's plenty of ordinary Russians who don't really want any part of this; don't conflate Russians with their government nor the armed forces who order and carry out numerous crimes against humanity across the last three years - including kidnapping tens of thousands of children and erasing their origins in a straight-up ethnic cleansing.

Not enough of them, and even then they're just too afraid for their own safety given the number of really high windows.
Veinz
Most is not enough, it has to be unanimous.
Click to expand...
And it wasn't for Finland either, until it was.
 
Dennisch
vs-en-rusland-spreken-van-succesvol-overleg-vooral-naar-elkaar-geluisterd.jpg


"You guys get that part and we take this. And those Europeans think they will have any say in our decisions"

Corrupt rats from 3 countries.
Click to expand...
Oh look, the US negotiating with the aggressors without representatives of the country in peril in attendance.

How’d that work out for Afghanistan, again….
 
Erdogan supports Ukraine retaining its territory as nonnegotiable.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Tuesday that Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty are nonnegotiable for Turkey, as Ankara positions itself as a potential host for talks between Russia, Ukraine and the United States. Turkey’s state-run Anadolu news agency reported.
Click to expand...
www.turkishminute.com

Ukraine’s territorial integrity is nonnegotiable for Turkey, Erdoğan says - Turkish Minute

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Tuesday that Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty are nonnegotiable for Turkey, as Ankara positions itself as a potential host for talks between Russia, Ukraine and the United States. Turkey’s state-run Anadolu news agency reported.
www.turkishminute.com www.turkishminute.com

Saudia Arabia wanted Ukraine present at the negotiations.
Bloomberg's source said Prince Mohammed had wanted Zelenskyy to be involved in the talks, but both the Americans and the Russians insisted that they wanted to meet without the Ukrainians.

The source said the Saudi ruler plans to brief the Ukrainian president on the Kingdom's role in convening the talks and his discussions with Russian and American officials.
Click to expand...
www.pravda.com.ua

Saudi Arabia wanted Ukrainians at talks, but US and Russia were opposed

Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman had requested that Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy participate in the discussions between Russia and the United States in Riyadh, but both the Americans and the Russians insisted that the talks take place without the Ukrainians.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua
 
Mind you, the opportunity to score freebie "good guy points" for the biggest obstacle for recent NATO applicants and the regime that chops its critics into pieces has never been better.
 
McLaren
Erdogan supports Ukraine retaining its territory as nonnegotiable.

www.turkishminute.com

Ukraine’s territorial integrity is nonnegotiable for Turkey, Erdoğan says - Turkish Minute

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Tuesday that Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty are nonnegotiable for Turkey, as Ankara positions itself as a potential host for talks between Russia, Ukraine and the United States. Turkey’s state-run Anadolu news agency reported.
www.turkishminute.com www.turkishminute.com

Saudia Arabia wanted Ukraine present at the negotiations.

www.pravda.com.ua

Saudi Arabia wanted Ukrainians at talks, but US and Russia were opposed

Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman had requested that Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy participate in the discussions between Russia and the United States in Riyadh, but both the Americans and the Russians insisted that the talks take place without the Ukrainians.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua
Click to expand...
If Saudi Arabia (who should have no say in the talks) wanted Ukraine there and was told no, why did they still attend? Might as well have had Trump get steamrolled into ceding the Baltic countries as well.
 
Last edited:
If ever there was a moment for China to come in and usurp the United States as the pre-eminent power broker in the world, now is it.
I don't know why Trump is obsessed with Russia (ignoring the potential blackmail) other than its geographically large and still holds significant power in Trump's mind because he came of age at the height of the Cold War. Russia is a pretty poor country (despite all that land, it has an economy 10x smaller than the EU) and has a pretty weak conventional military based on the results we've seen over the past several years - yet he treats it, almost unbelievably, as a peer of the United States. I suspect that Trump figures he can get Russia to assist with countering China and Iran...which would be spectacularly stupid (not to mention incredibly machiavellian, considering that hinges on letting most of our oldest/strongest allies twist in the wind), but I honestly think that's his statecraft aim here.

If anyone else can think of a halfway plausible reason for the United States to completely capitulate to Russia on this, I'm all ears. Trump has more urgency in ending this conflict than he did in ending the United States own conflict in Afghanistan. Why? It just doesn't make any sense. Is he just trying to mark down some kind of foreign policy accomplishment? This is some real Chamberlain level maneuvering...
 
Eunos_Cosmo
If ever there was a moment for China to come in and usurp the United States as the pre-eminent power broker in the world, now is it.
I don't know why Trump is obsessed with Russia (ignoring the potential blackmail) other than its geographically large and still holds significant power in Trump's mind because he came of age at the height of the Cold War. Russia is a pretty poor country (despite all that land, it has an economy 10x smaller than the EU) and has a pretty weak conventional military based on the results we've seen over the past several years - yet he treats it, almost unbelievably, as a peer of the United States. I suspect that Trump figures he can get Russia to assist with countering China and Iran...which would be spectacularly stupid (not to mention incredibly machiavellian, considering that hinges on letting most of our oldest/strongest allies twist in the wind), but I honestly think that's his statecraft aim here.

If anyone else can think of a halfway plausible reason for the United States to completely capitulate to Russia on this, I'm all ears. Trump has more urgency in ending this conflict than he did in ending the United States own conflict in Afghanistan. Why? It just doesn't make any sense. Is he just trying to mark down some kind of foreign policy accomplishment? This is some real Chamberlain level maneuvering...
Click to expand...
He wants praise from Putin that he is doing a good job so he is willing to throw Ukraine to the wolves for not helping him against the "Biden crime family".
 
Eunos_Cosmo
If ever there was a moment for China to come in and usurp the United States as the pre-eminent power broker in the world, now is it.
I don't know why Trump is obsessed with Russia (ignoring the potential blackmail) other than its geographically large and still holds significant power in Trump's mind because he came of age at the height of the Cold War. Russia is a pretty poor country (despite all that land, it has an economy 10x smaller than the EU) and has a pretty weak conventional military based on the results we've seen over the past several years - yet he treats it, almost unbelievably, as a peer of the United States. I suspect that Trump figures he can get Russia to assist with countering China and Iran...which would be spectacularly stupid (not to mention incredibly machiavellian, considering that hinges on letting most of our oldest/strongest allies twist in the wind), but I honestly think that's his statecraft aim here.

If anyone else can think of a halfway plausible reason for the United States to completely capitulate to Russia on this, I'm all ears. Trump has more urgency in ending this conflict than he did in ending the United States own conflict in Afghanistan. Why? It just doesn't make any sense. Is he just trying to mark down some kind of foreign policy accomplishment? This is some real Chamberlain level maneuvering...
Click to expand...
I can see that Trump would claim "peace" in Ukraine as a major foreign policy achievement ... same as solving the Palestinian issue by simply kicking all the Palestinians out of Palestine. The problem is, most Americans couldn't care less one way or the other - they have no knowledge of global politics and no interest.

China is hardly a benevolent power ... but I do think Xi Jinping and the Chinese in general take a much longer term view of things. You can see them extending their influence over many different areas of the globe where the Americans have minimal engagement.
 
Biggles
China is hardly a benevolent power ... but I do think Xi Jinping and the Chinese in general take a much longer term view of things. You can see them extending their influence over many different areas of the globe where the Americans have minimal engagement.
Click to expand...
Highly disagree here. Define "influence". The US has engaged all over the planet for decades through charity, diplomatic relations, and even civilian activities like proliferous travelling and vacation. American citizens travel everywhere, including places they're not supposed to, because we see it as our freedom to do so. Overall, US policy is focused on stability. Maintaining the status quo.

China's foreign policy is focused on aggressively disrupting the status quo and gaining deceptive control over and eventually dominating weaker nations by offering deals too good to refuse. China doesn't want influence, it wants control, and it wants it now. China hasn't influenced half of Africa into wearing their clothes and watching their movies, they have plunged those countries into crippling debt which will probably only be repaid with war or occupation. And they're doing all that with virtually unlimited human capital and complete disregard for human welfare.
 
Last edited:
Keef
Highly disagree here. Define "influence". The US has engaged all over the planet for decades through charity, diplomatic relations, and even civilian activities like proliferous travelling and vacation. American citizens travel everywhere, including places they're not supposed to, because we see it as our freedom to do so. Overall, US policy is focused on stability. Maintaining the status quo.

China's foreign policy is focused on aggressively disrupting the status quo and gaining deceptive control over and eventually dominating weaker nations by offering deals too good to refuse. China doesn't want influence, it wants control, and it wants it now. China hasn't influenced half of Africa into wearing their clothes and watching their movies, they have plunged those countries into crippling debt which will probably only be repaid with war or occupation. And they're doing all that with virtually unlimited human capital and complete disregard for human welfare.
Click to expand...
You're going to inspire Donald.

I just thought of an extremely cynical, yet plausible reason for the Rubio/Lavrov summit. Leverage. Nearly every relationship Donald Trump has is defined by the leverage he has or could have. Trump talks up Tariffs like they are a singular good for the USA, despite the overwhelming evidence that they aren't. Why? Because the threat of implementing them has to be real and serious for them to have any utility as leverage. In my mind, it's totally possible that this whole show of diplomatic opening between the USA and Russia is to force Europe to spend more on defense. The US has not committed to anything RE Russia, but Europe is already coordinating massive increases in defense spending and the prospect of a continental army - even the possibility of UN peace keepers in Ukraine. I could even see the same being true of Palestine - Trump has not committed the US to doing anything, but Arab countries have already begun stepping up their plans to rebuild Palestine. Am I giving Trump too much strategic credit here? It's likely - but both of these are straight out of the zero-sum real estate developer playbook - create a threat that is real and serious enough that the opponent has to take action, regardless of whether or not he has any intention of carrying out the threat.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

JMoney
Just War Theory
2 3 4
Replies
100
Views
6K
JMoney
JMoney
ROAD_DOGG33J
British Hacker to be Extradited to the U.S.
Replies
3
Views
563
Kylehnat
Kylehnat
MatskiMonk
  • Poll
Your Top 5 'James Bond' Films (+ No Time to Die/Votes Changeable)
2
Replies
52
Views
5K
Clark
Clark
ledhed
Transcript of Bushes speech
Replies
6
Views
773
milefile
milefile
xXKingJoshXx
GTPlanet's "The Blacklist" Appreciation Thread
2 3
Replies
79
Views
14K
JR98
JR98

Latest Posts

Back