Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Famine]

I just cannot see Russia going back to pre 2014

Sure, but this is what negotiations (and sanctions) are actually for - and remember, Russia wouldn't even be at the table if it was still so confident as it was in February 2022, and the sanctions weren't working.

I can't see Russia wanting to give back such territory as it gained in this illegal invasion, never mind the last one. Primarily because we all just turned a blind eye to the last one and collectively went "okay, you can have this one, Vladdy, but don't go taking any more", and they just went and did it anyway. In fact they'll probably just demand back some of the Ukrainian territory that they captured and were subsequently repelled from.


Nonetheless it's weird to suggest that Ukraine wanting its own territory back from an illegal invasion we all remember happening is "high expectations".

 

[TexRex]

Beggars can't be choosers.

Trumpism, man.

 

[Veinz]

Nonetheless it's weird to suggest that Ukraine wanting its own territory back from an illegal invasion we all remember happening is "high expectations".

It is high expectations because Russia still has the stronger hand. Their army is incompetent and corrupt but they're able to grind it out for longer than Ukraine can. They'll do that before giving up Crimea.

Do you want NATO to send troops there? I certainly don't.

 

[Famine]

It is high expectations because Russia still has the stronger hand.

Might makes right, huh?

Their army is incompetent and corrupt but they're able to grind it out for longer than Ukraine can.

Pretty sure people were saying that in March 2022. Also they've been so hard-up for actual troops since day one that they used Nazi militia, prisoners, and most recently North Koreans.

Putin's like Trump: big, strongman, "alpha" male act, backed up by... button mushroom and pederasty. And getting away with it for years because nobody actually stops them.

Do you want NATO to send troops there? I certainly don't.

This is a line straight from Putin. It's one he's been using since 2014, and more prominently in the lead-up to the three-day special operation, and then again every time it founders - waving his little nuclear sabre about what would happen if NATO entered Ukraine.

NATO has no business being in any nation that isn't a member nation for any defence purposes. If Ukraine was in NATO, then yes I would want NATO to send troops there, per its obligation.

Of course Russia shouldn't be in Ukraine either...

 

[Veinz]

Might makes right, huh?

This is the reality of the situation. I'm not saying it's right or fair.

Pretty sure people were saying that in March 2022. Also they've been so hard-up for actual troops since day one that they used Nazi militia, prisoners, and most recently North Koreans.


Putin's like Trump: big, strongman, "alpha" male act, backed up by... button mushroom and pederasty. And getting away with it for years because nobody actually stops them.

They still have more than Ukraine.

This is a line straight from Putin. It's one he's been using since 2014, and more prominently in the lead-up to the three-day special operation, and then again every time it founders - waving his little nuclear sabre about what would happen if NATO entered Ukraine.

NATO has no business being in any nation that isn't a member nation for any defence purposes. If Ukraine was in NATO, then yes I would want NATO to send troops there, per its obligation.

Of course Russia shouldn't be in Ukraine either...

They're going down that road at this rate. Even though Ukraine has no chance at joining NATO.

 

[Famine]

This is the reality of the situation.

That certainly seems to be the way that the country that invaded the other country, saying it'd take three days to conduct its special operation (eight years into a war it started) but which they're now having to negotiate about three years down the line is wanting to paint it.

How real that is remains to be seen, but winners don't need to negotiate...

I'm not saying it's right or fair.

What would be right or fair?

Why would it not be rational to expect what's right or fair to be agreed upon by parties meeting to agree on what's right and fair?

They still have more than Ukraine.

Which doesn't appear to have allowed them to achieve their aims, over-running by a factor of almost 365 times.

I know government projects over-run time and budget all the time, but sheesh.

They're going down that road at this rate. Even though Ukraine has no chance at joining NATO.

Why? Most of NATO wants Ukraine in NATO and Ukraine wants to be in NATO. The three-day special operation got Finland over the line, and the last Russian troops in Finland are buried six deep...

 

[TheCracker]

It is high expectations because Russia still has the stronger hand. Their army is incompetent and corrupt but they're able to grind it out for longer than Ukraine can. They'll do that before giving up Crimea.

The 70,000 or so Ukrainians killed in this war so far is a relative drop in the ocean compared to the 3-5 million killed* the last time Russia, in the form of the Soviet Union, rolled into Ukraine. This hasn't been forgotten by the Ukrainian people. They don't wish to be part of Russia. They've been there in living memory and didn't much enjoy it.

*due to famine. Famine did it.

 

[eran0004]

Ukraine deserves to be consulted on peace terms.

No, Ukraine deserves to dictate the peace terms.

But lets be honest, they have no negotiating power here. They can't afford to defend themselves but Zelenskyy still has some pretty high expectations, like pre-2014 borders. If he stands firm on that then this war will drag on for years.

That's not an unreasonable demand. In fact, that's the baseline for what would be an acceptable outcome. The war may drag on for years, but it's not Ukraine's fault.

When this war started, the average age of a Ukrainian solider was between 30-35 years, now it's 43-45.

Meaning what?

What are they going to do when they get really low on manpower to defend themselves?

Manpower is not an issue for Ukraine. What they need is weapons.

Sending NATO troops should not be an option either unless people really want WW3.

If Russia wants to start WW3 then what can we do to prevent it?

This war has to end.

Sure, but not with a Russian victory.

 

[Veinz]

That certainly seems to be the way that the country that invaded the other country, saying it'd take three days to conduct its special operation (eight years into a war it started) but which they're now having to negotiate about three years down the line is wanting to paint it.

How real that is remains to be seen, but winners don't need to negotiate...

There are no winners here. Russia has made an embarrassment of themselves on the world stage again, but they're still a nuclear superpower with a lunatic leader.

What would be right or fair?

Why would it not be rational to expect what's right or fair to be agreed upon by parties meeting to agree on what's right and fair?

In a perfect world then Russia would concede those territories and pinky to swear to not invade again, then they could live happily ever after. But there's no way Russia is going to play nice, they're Russians.

Why? Most of NATO wants Ukraine in NATO and Ukraine wants to be in NATO. The three-day special operation got Finland over the line, and the last Russian troops in Finland are buried six deep...

Most is not enough, it has to be unanimous.

 

[Dennisch]

But there's no way Russia is going to play nice, they're Russians.

And that's why you don't give them a single Ukraine village.

 

[MatskiMonk]

In fairness, Russia now has something it didn't have at the start of the SMO, the support of the USA.

This is straight up racketeering. Trump will agree to massive concessions on Ukraine's behalf in order to be able to do business with Russia again. Ukraine breaks those terms, as it should, and then America sanctions Ukraine and takes the $500 Billion in valuable minerals Trump has told Zelenskyy he wants. Trump went on TV to say he encourages Putin to do what he wants to countries that don't pay their way.

America cannot be trusted, it has become an aggressor in this conflict under the pretence of peace.

 

[Famine]

There are no winners here.

Which is rather my point. Russia continues to present itself as the mighty warrior on course to an inevitable victory, but can't overcome a nation that ceded from it 35 years ago (which, let's face it, is what this is all actually about) with a dramatically smaller armed forces.

Russia pretends to have the strong hand. In reality its war would have been over a year ago without support from China, Iran, and North Korea.

Russia has made an embarrassment of themselves on the world stage again, but they're still a nuclear superpower with a lunatic leader.

Yup, playing the strongman and getting away with it because nobody will challenge them on it. Just like Trump.

In a perfect world then Russia would concede those territories and pinky to swear to not invade again, then they could live happily ever after.

I didn't ask what was perfect. I asked what was right and fair - your words:

I'm not saying it's right or fair.

What would be right or fair?

Why would it not be rational to expect what's right or fair to be agreed upon by parties meeting to agree on what's right and fair?

But there's no way Russia is going to play nice, they're Russians.

Seems rather Russophobic. There's plenty of ordinary Russians who don't really want any part of this; don't conflate Russians with their government nor the armed forces who order and carry out numerous crimes against humanity across the last three years - including kidnapping tens of thousands of children and erasing their origins in a straight-up ethnic cleansing.

Not enough of them, and even then they're just too afraid for their own safety given the number of really high windows.

Most is not enough, it has to be unanimous.

And it wasn't for Finland either, until it was.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Ukrainians are going to hate us more than anyone else on earth for this betrayal.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Ukrainians are going to hate us more than anyone else on earth for this betrayal.

If it's any consolation, I think many people will hate you just as much as the Ukrainians for the betrayal, if they already don't.

 

[McLaren]

"You guys get that part and we take this. And those Europeans think they will have any say in our decisions"

Corrupt rats from 3 countries.

Oh look, the US negotiating with the aggressors without representatives of the country in peril in attendance.

How’d that work out for Afghanistan, again….

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Oh look, the US negotiating with the aggressors without representatives of the country in peril, that is also a US alley, in attendance.

How’d that work out for Afghanistan, again….

FTFY

 

[p78]

If anyone needs proof that Putin commands Trump...