Scottish Independence

[Stotty]

It's up to Scotland.

There are members of the commonwealth that choose to retain the British Monarch, but I suspect if the Scottish people vote for independence, they certainly won't want to retain the British head of state

I suspect the people will want a republic, and Salmond will want to be the 1st prime minister and then become the President in due course.

No idea

 

[optiongamers]

If Scotland dose become independent I think there will still be a British monarch. However I would like a republic as I dont see the point of having a head of state.

 

[PeterJB]

I would genuinely love it if they found James I/VI's closest living non-English royal descendant and brought the monarchy back!

 

[Liquid]

If Scotland dose become independent I think there will still be a British monarch. However I would like a republic as I dont see the point of having a head of state.

A republic can still have a head of state separate from a head of government. In fact, Germany, Slovakia, Greece, Poland, Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Czechia are just some of the many European republics with a head of government complimented by a ceremonial head of state.

I would genuinely love it if they found James I/VI's closest living non-English royal descendant and brought the monarchy back!

Current Jacobite pretender is Franz, Herzog von Bayern. Yes, I do just happen to immediately know these things.

 

[PeterJB]

I tried to do it manually starting with James I, everything gets really confusing around Charles II.

 

[Liquid]

Since 1807, when the succession went from the House of Stuart to the House of Savoy, none of the Jacobite pretenders have made any claims to the throne.

I tried to do it manually starting with James I, everything gets really confusing around Charles II.

You mean James VI.

 

[PeterJB]

Hmm, going by the rule old eldest male child or closest male descendant without allowing women (unless thee's no-one else) or illegitimate children to inherit I ended up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetana_Fitz-James_Stuart,_18th_Duchess_of_Alba

 

[Liquid]

Wiki - Jacobite Succession

Edit: Dang, the current guy is just missing off the end.

Still, it won't happen.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I nominate Frankie Boyle for the new King of Scotland.

 

[Roger the Horse]

I nominate David Byrne for king of Scotland.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Allan McNish! Or better still, the Franchitti brothers as co-rulers!



PS - Forget the Franchitti brothers, they'd make Paul di Resta Prime Minister.

 

[DK]

Staying the Commonwealth doesn't preclude the possibility of having a president - we had one from 1937 to 1949, when Ireland was still in the Commonwealth.

 

[Roger the Horse]

I thought Ireland didn't declare itself a republic until 1949? Or was that when the UK recognised it officially as a republic?

Honestly, I think that nationalism in modern Europe is an extremely misguided venture, that only serves to weaken Europe as a whole and all of its members. A United States of Europe could easily assert itself as a world superpower, especially if we got a few other countries that may as well be European in on it (Canada, New Zealand, etc.)

Anything to stop US dominance of the western world.

 

[DK]

We didn't become a republic until 1949, that's correct, but we still had a president by then. IIRC the British monarch's role was pretty much reduced to receiving foreign dignitaries.

 

[Omnis]

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/freedom-and-whisky-go-together

 

[Touring Mars]

Salmond keeps saying that Scotland can keep the pound because it is 'the sovereign will of the Scottish people'. What about the sovereign will of the rUK people who are 2:1 opposed to a currency union with an independent Scotland? By Salmond's own logic, it isn't up to Osbourne, Cameron or Miliband, but should be up to the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland to decide if they are happy to stay in a currency union and remain the lender of last resort for a now foreign nation. What makes the sovereign will of the Scottish people the deciding factor in this? What happens if the UK government allow a referendum in rUK to settle the matter? Will Salmond and Sturgeon be down to London to persuade the English to play nice and share when they've already said that an independent Scotland will not shoulder a penny of UK national debt unless they get their own way?

 

[Omnis]

Doesn't Scotland have any precious metals reserves? They could issue their own coin for the payment of their taxes. That'd be a good way to have credit. The people could trade whatever money they please. No central bank necessary. To quote Carl Menger, "Money is not an invention of the state. It is not the product of a legislative act. Even the sanction of political authority is not necessary for its existence." There is no sovereign will of the people, there is just the natural exchange of money as the people choose it. Scotland, however, would benefit greatly from people using its own coin as money, and would be better still by being able to export it as someone's held reserve.

It would be in the best interest of the crown to keep Scotland using pounds. Hegemony is always good. In fact, I would predict some mega shenanigans if Scotland were to go onto its own thing.

That said, as the article I posted echoes, now would be a great time for Scotland to explore great and creative ways to free its people into prosperity. It would be a shame for this whole thing turn into a fight over welfare and state power.

 

[Liquid]

If their plan is to join the European Union, as has been touted many times, whatever currency an independent Scotland does end up using will only be temporary.

Links - European Commission

...under the Treaty, all EU Member States have to join the euro area once the necessary conditions are fulfilled, except Denmark and the United Kingdom which have negotiated an 'opt-out' clause that allows them to remain outside the euro area.

Once again, it smacks of the ex-partner moving out and taking half of your stuff without any negotiation. Using GBP, to me at least, taxes the definition of 'independent'. No pun intended.

 

[Touring Mars]

Doesn't Scotland have any precious metals reserves? They could issue their own coin for the payment of their taxes. That'd be a good way to have credit. The people could trade whatever money they please. No central bank necessary. To quote Carl Menger, "Money is not an invention of the state. It is not the product of a legislative act. Even the sanction of political authority is not necessary for its existence." There is no sovereign will of the people, there is just the natural exchange of money as the people choose it. Scotland, however, would benefit greatly from people using its own coin as money, and would be better still by being able to export it as someone's held reserve.

It would be in the best interest of the crown to keep Scotland using pounds. Hegemony is always good. In fact, I would predict some mega shenanigans if Scotland were to go onto its own thing.

That said, as the article I posted echoes, now would be a great time for Scotland to explore great and creative ways to free its people into prosperity. It would be a shame for this whole thing turn into a fight over welfare and state power.

Scotland is keeping the pound in an informal currency union with England and will continue to use the Bank of England as a lender of last resort, against the advice of the Bank of England's governor (among many others), and against the stated will of the three main political parties in the remainder of the UK, and against the will of the people of the rUK.

None of what you are suggesting is even remotely on the table.

I heard one guy on the Yes campaign today argue that we'll keep the pound, but ended his answer by saying that 'why is Scotland the only country on Earth that doesn't have the ability to use it's own currency?' - except we're not going to use our own currency... that is not even remotely on the table either.

Also, it is the stated aim of the SNP that an independent Scotland will be 'full members of the EU' - which requires that we adopt the Euro - but this is about the last thing the people of Scotland want. (The SNP have changed their views on the Euro, just as they've changed their views on the pound as well).

The problem is not that Scotland couldn't potentially succeed if it does everything right... it is whether our leaders will do (or even intend to do) everything right.

As you can hopefully see by now, that is extremely questionable.

 

[Omnis]

Oh, of course. I have absolutely no faith in them.

 

[Robin]

 

[Omnis]

Is that legit? They're doing it all wrong.

 

[Dotini]

The problem is not that Scotland couldn't potentially succeed if it does everything right... it is whether our leaders will do (or even intend to do) everything right.

I don't think it matters to do "everything right". Muddling through is good enough. Most northern tribes have a resilience, depth, robustness and flexibility adapted well to harsh circumstances, Scots not excepted. Go ahead and once again claim your independence. Show me your Braveheart avatar.

 

[Touring Mars]

Maybe I should have rephrased it a bit... the Yes campaign seemingly think that 'things can only get better', and that we can't do any worse than we are doing right now (despite being one of the richest countries on Earth already). The very real fear of atleast 2 million people in this country is that we could actually do ALOT worse if we are not extremely careful about the decisions we take over the coming years - and the independence referendum is the starting point for a wide range of major decisions. This isn't a time for sentimentality and 'brave hearts', but it is a time for hard facts, evidence, reasoning and using our heads. But two days before we are expected to vote on this monumental question, the Yes campaign still cannot give any assurances that we will not be using the Euro in five years time, or if we'll still be EU citizens in 18 months time. It's not good enough.

ICM just published their latest poll - a 4 point lead for No (with and without the Don't Knows).

And Opinium just published their latest poll as well - also a 4 point lead for No.

Survation also have a poll coming tonight.

 

[jackargent]

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2013/01/electoral-commission-report30012013

I can't be bothered searching all the links but the common consensus is that Cameron got the Yes/No question. Salmond go to delay the vote until ...Thursday!! Again, it is commonly thought that Salmond didn't believe he could win a Yes/No vote. In fairness, it shouldn't be close but the No campaign has been a complete & utter shambles. You could really be forgiven for thinking they wanted to lose. Here's an example

Noting how amusing it is that you are "unique" because you can see two sides to every story doesn't really hold when there aren't two sides to every story.

I am not unique (except in the sense that we are all unique) Whether or not there are 2 sides to every story is an interesting debate, but there are definitely two side to this one.

Salmond keeps saying that Scotland can keep the pound because it is 'the sovereign will of the Scottish people'. What about the sovereign will of the rUK people who are 2:1 opposed to a currency union with an independent Scotland? By Salmond's own logic, it isn't up to Osbourne, Cameron or Miliband, but should be up to the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland to decide if they are happy to stay in a currency union and remain the lender of last resort for a now foreign nation. What makes the sovereign will of the Scottish people the deciding factor in this? What happens if the UK government allow a referendum in rUK to settle the matter? Will Salmond and Sturgeon be down to London to persuade the English to play nice and share when they've already said that an independent Scotland will not shoulder a penny of UK national debt unless they get their own way?

If you are looking for someone to blindly defend Alec Salmond & all he stands for. Personally I do not understand why he pinned so much on the currency union thing, although in fairness, politically it has played quite well for him, again helped by the ineptitude of the No campaign who came across as bullying. And the No side campaigned on the slogan "vote yes & lose the pound" which was simple not true. Whilst we cannot have a currency union without the agreement of the rUK, anyone can use the pound - its an internationally tradeable currency - so by over claiming the No campaign undermined their case.

If their plan is to join the European Union, as has been touted many times, whatever currency an independent Scotland does end up using will only be temporary.

Links - European Commission



Once again, it smacks of the ex-partner moving out and taking half of your stuff without any negotiation. Using GBP, to me at least, taxes the definition of 'independent'. No pun intended.

The EU is at heart a pragmatic organisation - if it wants to do something it will find a way to do it & there is plenty of expert opinion to back that up - here's one link - there are plenty more if you have a look for them

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...scotland-could-join-eu-in-18-months-1-3535302

As for the Spanish, well they are extraordinarily fond of our fish.

Remember whilst Scotland is negotiationg EU membership it will still be in the UK & hence will be in the EU.

 

[Famine]

I can't be bothered searching all the links but the common consensus is that Cameron got the Yes/No question.

And yet the Scottish Parliament in that very link says the Electoral Commission recommended that and the Scottish Parliament took it - while Westminster dragged its feet. Nicola Sturgeon - who will take Salmond's job in the event of a No - certainly seemed happy about it.


So either the common consensus is wrong or the Scottish Parliament and your Deputy First Minister are lying. Either way, whoever told you that Cameron forced that question and a Yes/No answer was telling you porkies. And since they've got a vote - unlike me - it might be worth you bringing it up with them.

 

[Touring Mars]

Survation puts No ahead by 4 points as well...

Three polls all with the same result tonight... (NO 52% - YES 48%).

'Don't knows' in the three polls stand at 6%, 8% and 14% - but all showed same result (52/48) whether or not DK's were factored in.

Apparently there are 5 more polls due tomorrow, and one on Thursday morning...

edit: So much for Rupert Murdoch throwing his substantial influence behind independence...

He tweeted these the other day:

SNP not talking about independence, but more more welfarism, expensive greenery, etc and passing sovereignty to Brussels.

Coincidence or fate? Sept 18 2014 700 years since Battle of Bannockburn threw off English yoke. But now SNP wants to swap UK rule for EU.

Scotland. Have to worry about some of Salmond's allies. Far left socialists and extreme greenies. Must change course to prosper if he wins.

Ouch.

 

[Famine]

Would it be invoking Godwin's Law to mention that Salmond is a nationalist and a socialist?


What spoon?

 

[jackargent]

And yet the Scottish Parliament in that very link says the Electoral Commission recommended that and the Scottish Parliament took it - while Westminster dragged its feet. Nicola Sturgeon - who will take Salmond's job in the event of a No - certainly seemed happy about it.


So either the common consensus is wrong or the Scottish Parliament and your Deputy First Minister are lying. Either way, whoever told you that Cameron forced that question and a Yes/No answer was telling you porkies. And since they've got a vote - unlike me - it might be worth you bringing it up with them.

you are mixing up the Edinburgh agreement where the basic principles were agreed (as I described them) with the electoral commission which worked out practicalities like the wording of the question (which Nicola Sturgeon) welcomed.

Two different things.

As I have said, I am very happy with the Yes/no choice but if it goes Yes, it will be thanks to Dave.

 

[Famine]

you are mixing up the Edinburgh agreement where the basic principles were agreed (as I described them) with the electoral commission which worked out practicalities like the wording of the question (which Nicola Sturgeon) welcomed.

Nope. Or, if the Independent is a bit too mainstream UK media bias, nope.

Two different things.

Yep. The Edinburgh Agreement set out the framework for the question, the Electoral Commission recommended the question and answer "Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes/No". Sturgeon was a fan of this, so you should be thanking her.

Cameron, apart from signing the Edinburgh Agreement - along with three Scottish parliament representatives and no-one else - isn't particularly involved and especially not with the wording of the question or format of the answer. Any "common consensus" that he has is wrong and you really ought to look into who's telling you this rubbish. It seems that they are indeed mixing up the Edinburgh Agreement and the Electoral Commission.


Obviously, I won't because I don't get a vote.