Several explosions on London Underground

[Swift]

Attn nitwits and terrorist the following rules are in effect ;

Officers allowed to shoot to kill, not disable
Head shots allowed, as body may trigger bomb
No need for special permission to kill
Target must be seen as imminent threat
Gold officer gives order to fire
5 shots are necessary

Why did it take so long to get rules like this? We all(countries effected by terrorism) should've been doing this since forever.

 

[Danoff]

Attn nitwits and terrorist the following rules are in effect ;

Officers allowed to shoot to kill, not disable
Head shots allowed, as body may trigger bomb
No need for special permission to kill
Target must be seen as imminent threat
Gold officer gives order to fire
5 shots are necessary


and one in the balls from me .

Don't you mean, attention nitwits, terrorists, and random dudes who aren't terrorists? Did the non-affiliated non-terrorist guy deserve one in the balls from you or was it just the terrorists?

 

[Swift]

Don't you mean, attention nitwits, terrorists, and random dudes who aren't terrorists? Did the non-affiliated non-terrorist guy deserve one in the balls from you or was it just the terrorists?

Well, that's a tough one. but if he's looking exaclty like the terrorists, what are the authorities supposed to do?

 

[ledhed]

Don't you mean, attention nitwits, terrorists, and random dudes who aren't terrorists? Did the non-affiliated non-terrorist guy deserve one in the balls from you or was it just the terrorists?

just the terrorist Dan Just the terrorist . Although nitwits and random dudes should PAY attention to the rules and be carefull ....
I am glad I wasnt there to shoot the Brazilian dude . I would have had a hard time living with it . Even though it was the right thing to do under the circumstances .

 

[Danoff]

just the terrorist Dan Just the terrorist

Just checking.

 

[rk]

Well, that's a tough one. but if he's looking exaclty like the terrorists, what are the authorities supposed to do?

Perhaps you could help us by defining "exactly like." I mean, hopefully it doesn't include anyone with two arms and two legs. Anyone with a shifty expression. Anyone who doesn't piss you off too badly. Anyone who doesn't fit your description of decent and upstanding. Anyone you just don't like. Anyone who "looks suspicious."
Does anyone here see any problem with legally putting life and death decisions in the hands of a single man? Is this really the direction we want to take our culture? Why did we ever invent the court system in the first place? Wasn't what you are advocating the way things were in feudal times? Someone pissed you off and you killed him. Then, for some weird reason, we invented laws and courts, now you want to throw that all away and put your life in the hands of "the lawgivers"? Do you realize the hard line Islamic websites call the coalition "crusaders"? Is it not possible there could be the slightest shred of truth to the statement?

 

[ledhed]

Perhaps you could help us by defining "exactly like." I mean, hopefully it doesn't include anyone with two arms and two legs. Anyone with a shifty expression. Anyone who doesn't piss you off too badly. Anyone who doesn't fit your description of decent and upstanding. Anyone you just don't like. Anyone who "looks suspicious."
Does anyone here see any problem with legally putting life and death decisions in the hands of a single man? Is this really the direction we want to take our culture? Why did we ever invent the court system in the first place? Wasn't what you are advocating the way things were in feudal times? Someone pissed you off and you killed him. Then, for some weird reason, we invented laws and courts, now you want to throw that all away and put your life in the hands of "the lawgivers"? Do you realize the hard line Islamic websites call the coalition "crusaders"? Is it not possible there could be the slightest shred of truth to the statement?

Rant rave yada yada rat rant rave ! Rave rant yada yada oh the humanity ! Yada
yada rant rant rave yada rant ? yada yada laws and rant rave courts civil rights yada yada .

All arest should be made by commitee after carefull deliberation and intense eybrow furrowing . Those being arrested should actually follow the commands of the arresting officers so that they the officers entrusted with using deadly force , do not have to make the decision to shoot or not to shoot . ooops I am sorry I started making sense...ummmm lets get back to that eyebrow stuff...Ooooooh look mommy a crusade it looks like fun ! can I have one ?

 

[Solid Fro]

Crusade?

A crusade is done with religious reasons. The only ones who are using religious reasons to support their actions are Islamic fascists.

 

[rk]

Rant rave yada yada rat rant rave ! Rave rant yada yada oh the humanity ! Yada
yada rant rant rave yada rant ? yada yada laws and rant rave courts civil rights yada yada .

All arest should be made by commitee after carefull deliberation and intense eybrow furrowing . Those being arrested should actually follow the commands of the arresting officers so that they the officers entrusted with using deadly force , do not have to make the decision to shoot or not to shoot . ooops I am sorry I started making sense...ummmm lets get back to that eyebrow stuff...Ooooooh look mommy a crusade it looks like fun ! can I have one ?

Thank you, um ledhed, I am sure Swift is grateful for your reasoned response to my question, you clearly show a deep understanding of history and human nature.
Advice: don't wear heavy coats in Summer in my neighborhood...or a nametag for that matter.

Crusade?

A crusade is done with religious reasons. The only ones who are using religious reasons to support their actions are Islamic fascists.

Let's see, you're the poser, err, poster that says people should get killed for being stupid, right?

ZzZz...

The situation is that this guy disobeyed police officers during a time where officers have orders to shoot to kill. This guy was an idiot for his stunt and IMO, deserved what he got.

One less idiot on planet Earth.

Well, you also demonstrate a clear grasp of history. Anyone who knows the record of the crusades will remember that the fourth one was turned against Constantinople, which was the capital of the Byzantine Empire, the eastern remenant of The Roman Empire. It was done mostly for political reasons, as well as resources, thinly guised as religious ones. Many historical scholars agree that religion served as the authoritative and enforcement power of the state, it is one of the reasons why the debate about the seperation of church and state is so pertinent today. Here is a quote from an excellent resource, I recommend you peruse the website if you are interested in learning about a formative period of our current culture:

The year was 1095 CE, William the Conqueror had united England under one crown 30 years earlier. The French had been dividing properties amongst their sons for generations, causing bloodshed between brothers over small pieces of real estate. In reaction, Pope Urban II expanded "The Truce of God", which outlawed fighting from Sunday to Wednesday, and banned fighting involving priests, monks, women, laborers and merchants on any day of the week. Italy was a collection of city-states, constantly being overrun by invading hordes, the latest of which were the Normans, who had just started to become "civilized".

There was also the Byzantine empire, ruling from Constantinople, whose emperor at this time was Alexius Comnenus. To his East, the Turks were rapidly encroaching on his empire, and had begun attacking pilgrims on their way to - and in - Jerusalem, causing him great distress. He wrote to his friend Robert, the Count of Flanders, in 1093, telling him about supposed atrocities committed by the Turks on the Christian pilgrims, and Robert passed this letter on to Pope Urban II. Urban, an opportunist, saw this as a perfect way to solve some of his local problems. He personally promoted a Holy Crusade to reclaim the Holy Lands from the barbarian Turks. Thus, the First Crusade was launched in 1096 CE.

http://www.medievalcrusades.com/

Please note that I said Islamic extremist websites were saying that the members of the coalition were crusaders, while not taking a stance myself, I think it is important to realize how easily they can.

 

[ledhed]

Is it not possible there could be the slightest shred of truth to the statement?

No its not possible nor even probable . Its just more of the crap they put out to get ignorant followers to blow themselves up . Granted the Arabs and for that matter , most third world countrys , have many reasons to distrust and / or hate the west . Most having to do with colonization and exploitation along with racism .
None of it justifies or warrants bombs in the subways / tube stations or aircraft flying into buildings . They are no longer fighting for freedom from a colonial power . They are fighting now for religion and for revenge driven by fanatics .
The only way to deal with fanatics intent on killing you is to kill them first .
Unless of course you are willing to give them what they want and put yourself at their mercy .
Anything else is a bunch of monkeydung and a waste of time . They want to be martyrs help them acheive their goal as fast as possible .

 

[Swift]

The only way to deal with fanatics intent on killing you is to kill them first .
Unless of course you are willing to give them what they want and put yourself at their mercy .
Anything else is a bunch of monkeydung and a waste of time . They want to be martyrs help them acheive their goal as fast as possible .

The sooner we realise this, the sooner we can start to end this horror.

 

[Touring Mars]

The best way to deal with the threat of suicide bombers is by intellegence, and not an all-guns-blazing militaristic 'solution'... we have already seen all too clearly that 'pre-emptive' wars such as the Iraq conflict do much more harm than good...

 

[Swift]

The best way to deal with the threat of suicide bombers is by intellegence, and not an all-guns-blazing militaristic 'solution'... we have already seen all too clearly that 'pre-emptive' wars such as the Iraq conflict do much more harm than good...

I think it needs to be a combination of the two. No point in intelligence if you don't put force behind it. But now point in force if it's not intelligently applied.

 

[Danoff]

Advice: don't wear heavy coats in Summer in my neighborhood...

The guy shouldn't have been killed for wearing a heavy coat in the summer, or being dark skinned, or carying a backpack (was he?), or going to the subway... and he wasn't. He was killed because police believed he was armed and dangerous, and because he resisted arrest.

Given some of the details about this case, I'm glad there's an investigation. However, I expect that it will turn out that the officers invovled did the right thing.

 

[Touring Mars]

The guy shouldn't have been killed for wearing a heavy coat in the summer, or being dark skinned, or carying a backpack (was he?), or going to the subway... and he wasn't. He was killed because police believed he was armed and dangerous, and because he resisted arrest.

Given some of the details about this case, I'm glad there's an investigation. However, I expect that it will turn out that the officers invovled did the right thing.

I believe they did do the right thing... it's tragic for him and his family... but I can't really see why people are marching in the streets of Brazil... the day after 4 more nutters try to kill hundreds of innocent people, of all races, creeds, colours and nationalities here in London, the police were going to take no chances... or it could have been 55 more funerals... my friend was at one of those funerals on Friday... so you can understand why people here will almost universally agree that the police had to do what they did

 

[Swift]

The guy shouldn't have been killed for wearing a heavy coat in the summer, or being dark skinned, or carying a backpack (was he?), or going to the subway... and he wasn't. He was killed because police believed he was armed and dangerous, and because he resisted arrest.

Given some of the details about this case, I'm glad there's an investigation. However, I expect that it will turn out that the officers invovled did the right thing.

If you resist arrest, that's an alarm to the cops that something is probably wrong or you're a fugitive. Wrongful arrest are a horrible inconvinence, but it's a lot better then being shot.

 

[ledhed]

The best way to deal with the threat of suicide bombers is by intellegence, and not an all-guns-blazing militaristic 'solution'... we have already seen all too clearly that 'pre-emptive' wars such as the Iraq conflict do much more harm than good...

I see no reason not to destroy whatever support and base they may have along with tracking them down as idividuals . Its stupid to wait for them to attack . In fact its down right idiotic ! All guns blazing militaristic solutions are fine if you know and are sure as to what you are blazing your guns at . And we have not seen anything at all with clarity concerning Iraq . Its much too soon to see what long term effect democracy will have in Iraq . We have seen that Egypt , Lebenon and Syria have been effected by the situation in a positive way . Iraq is a work in progress . You not only have the US fighting Al Queda but also the Iraqi government fighting a Sunni Insurgency along with everyone fighting extremist muslim fanatics of all flavors . Iraq is very important in the war on terror . The extremist and terrorist have made it so . They do not want a democracy to succeed . We do . Iraq brought it all out into the open .

 

[rk]

No its not possible nor even probable . Its just more of the crap they put out to get ignorant followers to blow themselves up . Granted the Arabs and for that matter , most third world countrys , have many reasons to distrust and / or hate the west . Most having to do with colonization and exploitation along with racism .
None of it justifies or warrants bombs in the subways / tube stations or aircraft flying into buildings . They are no longer fighting for freedom from a colonial power . They are fighting now for religion and for revenge driven by fanatics .
The only way to deal with fanatics intent on killing you is to kill them first .
Unless of course you are willing to give them what they want and put yourself at their mercy .
Anything else is a bunch of monkeydung and a waste of time . They want to be martyrs help them acheive their goal as fast as possible .

Explain then, "perfesser," why there have been no terrorist attacks in France, Germany, Canada or Japan;

I see no reason not to destroy whatever support and base they may have along with tracking them down as idividuals . Its stupid to wait for them to attack . In fact its down right idiotic ! All guns blazing militaristic solutions are fine if you know and are sure as to what you are blazing your guns at . And we have not seen anything at all with clarity concerning Iraq . Its much too soon to see what long term effect democracy will have in Iraq . We have seen that Egypt , Lebenon and Syria have been effected by the situation in a positive way . Iraq is a work in progress . You not only have the US fighting Al Queda but also the Iraqi government fighting a Sunni Insurgency along with everyone fighting extremist muslim fanatics of all flavors . Iraq is very important in the war on terror . The extremist and terrorist have made it so . They do not want a democracy to succeed . We do . Iraq brought it all out into the open .

While all three of the above mentioned "democratized" countries have had recent terrorist attacks.

 

[Touring Mars]

I see no reason not to destroy whatever support and base they may have along with tracking them down as idividuals . Its stupid to wait for them to attack . In fact its down right idiotic ! All guns blazing militaristic solutions are fine if you know and are sure as to what you are blazing your guns at

So how do you conduct a militaristic assault on the sort of people who carried out the London bombings...? Send troops into Leeds?? In this case specifically, there is no military solution...

And we have not seen anything at all with clarity concerning Iraq . Its much too soon to see what long term effect democracy will have in Iraq . We have seen that Egypt , Lebenon and Syria have been effected by the situation in a positive way . Iraq is a work in progress . You not only have the US fighting Al Queda but also the Iraqi government fighting a Sunni Insurgency along with everyone fighting extremist muslim fanatics of all flavors . Iraq is very important in the war on terror . The extremist and terrorist have made it so . They do not want a democracy to succeed . We do . Iraq brought it all out into the open .

Really?? Iraq is a work in progress? Try telling that to the families of the 100,000 who have died since the invasion....

Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with the GWOT until Bush decided it did... what threat did it really pose, especially in the context of terrorism? The answer is not much... it bloody well does now, that's for sure... more people (innocent civilians, both Sunni and Shia) die every day in Iraq than were killed in London on July 7th... that shows the true value of the militaristic approach... war should only ever be the last resort, but for Bush it was the weapon of choice... sadly, it was a very poor choice....

 

[Solid Fro]

So how do you conduct a militaristic assault on the sort of people who carried out the London bombings...? Send troops into Leeds?? In this case specifically, there is no military solution...

Special Forces.

Really?? Iraq is a work in progress? Try telling that to the families of the 100,000 who have died since the invasion....

Where are you getting your numbers from? Even that anti-war site, Iraq Body Count, has their number at 25,000 at the maximum.

Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with the GWOT until Bush decided it did... what threat did it really pose, especially in the context of terrorism?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1790034&postcount=35

I can go on all day if you want me to.

 

[rk]

I can go on all day if you want me to.

You sure can, almost like a talking head. May I say you sure love to quote yourself?

The mayor of Gonzaga, Julio de Souza, was outraged at reports of the eight close range shots - seven in the head and one in the shoulder - describing the death as an "assassination".

"It's easy for Blair to apologise, but it doesn't mean very much," he said. "What happened to English justice and England, a place where police patrol unarmed?"http://www.guardian.co.uk/brazil/story/0,12462,1536391,00.html

Why don't you explain to the people of Gonzaga how pitifully stupid Mr. Menezes was and they should be thanking the marksman now that there is one less idiot in the world?
Oh, and while your at it, since crusades are only run for, um, religious reasons, why is the coalition so easily characterized as a crusade; or haven't you heard about the religious bias at the Air Force Academy?

Some 55 complaints of religious discrimination have been filed going back to 2001, prompting school officials to require that all 9,000 cadets and faculty and staff members take a 50-minute course on religious sensitivity, academy officials said.

In addition, a report last week by a Washington-based religious liberty group accused cadets and staff members of creating a climate that discriminated against non-Christians at the academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

"We have concluded that both the specific violations and the promotion of a culture of official religious intolerance are pervasive, systematic and evident at the very highest levels of the academy's command structure," said the report from Americans United for Separation of Church and State.http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/03/airforce.religion/

 

[Solid Fro]

Talking heads, some dude named Menezes, and the Air Force Academy?

Nice way to spin yourself out of the topic.

 

[sukerkin]

With all due respect to the contributors to this thread, which is a fascinating read I have to say, please don't let your arguments devolve into belittling the statements each of you make. Argument and counter-argument is one thing, a slanging match is another.

As to the reaction of the Brazilian mayor of Gonzaga ... I would suggest that he is looking for 'good copy' for his constituents - no, I'm being unfair there as I don't know the man. However, it's a bit rich to hear such outbursts from a political official in a country with a Human Rights record like Brazil.

 

[Touring Mars]

Where are you getting your numbers from? Even that anti-war site, Iraq Body Count, has their number at 25,000 at the maximum..

You're quite right... that is the civilian death toll... the actual death toll on all sides is far higher..., but I was specifically referring to civilians really, so my numbers were wrong...

 

[Solid Fro]

25,000 - Civilian
1,700 - US
400 - Coalition

Am I missing someone here? Do you want me to add the terrorist death toll too?

 

[Touring Mars]

25,000 - Civilian
1,700 - US
400 - Coalition

Am I missing someone here? Do you want me to add the terrorist death toll too?

If you are talking about absolute casualties, then yes - not all combatants in Iraq are 'terrorists' (or should I say were)... many combatants in Iraq now may be 'terrorists' (by our definition), but to label the whole insurgency as one big terrorist movement is to misunderstand Iraq completely... what gives us the right, as complete outsiders, to dub massive swathes of people in Iraq as 'terrorists', just because they want their own country back, and they want us out?

 

[Solid Fro]

Most are foreign terrorists. Left overs from Saddam's regime would be the enemy combatants.

What gives the mainstream media the right to call everyone who shoots an RPG or blows up a car bomb an "insurgent"? I am calling them for what they really are, a terrorist. Something the BBC cannot understand.

 

[rk]

what gives us the right, as complete outsiders, to dub massive swathes of people in Iraq as 'terrorists', just because they want their own country back, and they want us out?

Excellent point and well put. The fact that many Arabs dub the members of the coalition as 'crusaders' is significant in that activities there and in Western nations bear striking resemblance to the hijincks of historical crusaders. The severe persecution of anyone remotely related to the opposition is undeniable and can be borne out in Tony Blair's support of the extra-judicial execution of Charles de (some dude) Menezes, the labeling of all Iraqi insurgents as "terrorists," the fact that signs of religious extremisim exist in our armed forces; all support the allegations made by Islamic fundamentalists that this "war on terror" is a modern crusade. Not to mention the fact that it is, once again, a Western campaign into the lands tradionally controlled by the Arabs. The one great difference from historical crusades is that now the West supports the Jews.
Granted, the labeling is right now just a bunch of name calling, but if we don't watch out, we will fall right into the well established pattern laid by our forefathers, especially if someone is trying to lead us into it.

Talking head is slang for interview footage shot in a locked down medium shot of the subject's head and shoulders. It also refers to an anchor, pundit, or other personality on news television.
The group Talking Heads gets its name from this phrase.
In legend and mythology, a magical talking head giving advice is a recurring motif (see Mimir, Baphomet, Pope Silvester II). http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...rdny?tname=talking-head-1&method=6&sbid=lc04a

I found the reference to Baphomet especially interesting.

Are terrorist actions, like subway suicide bombings, justifiable? Likely not, but I'd like to see how you reacted if someone was running a crusade through your backyard.

 

[Flame-returns]

As to the reaction of the Brazilian mayor of Gonzaga ... I would suggest that he is looking for 'good copy' for his constituents - no, I'm being unfair there as I don't know the man. However, it's a bit rich to hear such outbursts from a political official in a country with a Human Rights record like Brazil.

Brazil actually has a pretty good human rights record that is constantly improving, I would also like to note that Brazil has a very high adult literacy rate for a country many deem to be "third world" and there are vast swathes of Brazil that dont look much morethird world then the Elephant and Castle in London.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

You sure can, almost like a talking head. May I say you sure love to quote yourself? Why don't you explain to the people of Gonzaga how pitifully stupid Mr. Menezes was and they should be thanking the marksman now that there is one less idiot in the world?
Oh, and while your at it, since crusades are only run for, um, religious reasons, why is the coalition so easily characterized as a crusade; or haven't you heard about the religious bias at the Air Force Academy?

I still don't understand what your point is rk, you've been obsessing about this one mans death for days now.
Let me put it into perspective for you, the G8 summit has almost been swept into oblivion by the recent terrorist actions, are you even aware that the UK agreed to double their contribution to help poverty in Africa. The aid package is now $50bn and even Sir Bob has recognised that the new measures will save 10million lives.
but...the headlines are full of this one man killed in shooting story...why is this one man's life so important compared to the thousands of others that die every day.

Everyday HIV/AIDS kills 6,000 people and another 8,200 people are infected with this deadly virus.
Every year six million children die from malnutrition before their fifth birthday.
Every 30 seconds an African child dies of malaria-more than one million child deaths a year.
Every 3.6 seconds another person dies of starvation and the large majority are children under the age of 5.
Five million people, mostly children, die each year from water-borne diseases.
Every minute, a woman somewhere dies in pregnancy or childbirth. This adds up to 1,400 women dying each day-an estimated 529,000 each year-from pregnancy-related causes.

I don't know where you live rk, but it must be nice to live where there is no crime, and no need for a police force. I don't live in such a paradise. I am thankful for what the police do on a daily basis, and it's a pretty cheap shot from the mayor of Gonzaga, they could try and stop some of their own genuine corruption. In the UK we don't have government backed death squads that murder children!

- According to the National Movement of Street Children (MNMMR) and the Brazilian Institute for Social and Economic Analyses (IBASE), 1,937 children and adolescents were killed during the period of 1984 to 1989.
- According to the Attorney General (Procurador General da Republica ), 5,644 children between the ages of five and seventeen were victims of violent deaths in the period between 1988 and 1991.

-According to Rio de Janeiro state government's own statistics, in 1992, 424 children under the age of 18 were victims of homicide in Rio de Janeiro. In the first six months of 1993, 298 children were killed in that state

A report released by the Rio de Janeiro's State Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry revealed that 90 percent of the adolescents killed in the State had no previous police record. Nevertheless, death squads operate in many Brazilian states. Police officers are frequently accused of murdering destitute minors, and businessmen are alleged to contract professional killers to 'clean the streets'. According to the MNMMR, Marco de Lima, a city official in Novo Hamburgo from the Party of the Brazilian Democratic Movement (PMDB) went so far as to declare that "We have to kill when they are still young, so they do not bother us after they grow up".

Explain then, "perfesser," why there have been no terrorist attacks in France, Germany, Canada or Japan;

What none at all...are you sure...or do you just mean "this week"

Islamic extremists upset with French Government policy toward the conflict in Algeria are suspected of being responsible for terrorist bombings in France during 1995 that left eight dead and 160 wounded.

A series of terrorist incidents in France in 1995 appeared to be the work of Algerian extremists. In July a cofounder of the Algerian opposition group Islamic Salvation Front (FIS), Abdelbaki Sahraoui, was murdered in Paris. Suspicion focused on another Algerian opposition group, the Armed Islamic Group (GIA), which had earlier put Sahraoui on a "death list" for his supposed conciliatory posture toward the Algerian Government.

I assume that you think all these other countries are on crusades as well, to warrant attacks by terrorists.

Terrorist Attacks 1961-2003

I'm sure you'll respond to this with a circular argument, a subtle reference to the police being fascists and how terrible it is that a man died....oh and probably some ridiculous comment about crusades.
Come to UK, have a look at our temples, our mosques our shrines and our synagogues.
You don't seem to realise the scale of the ethnic and religious diversity of our little island.
Why don't we just pull these temples down and force everyone to attend a Christian church...that is what a crusade is like, don't use a word that you don't understand.
In our history we had crusades, they were bloody and terrible, it was a shameful time we swept accross Europe leaving a trail of murder behind us.
By using the word now to describe our attempts to defend ourselves from terrorism you are making a mockery of the people that suffered and died from the torture and burnings that came with those times.
You also make a mockery of people like this, who risked their lives to save so many others.

The first person to be awarded a VC (the UK's highest honour) in 20 years. To suggest that he is an a evil crusader is just plain stupid!
You are so wrong, it has actually annoyed me.

Brazil actually has a pretty good human rights record that is constantly improving, I would also like to note that Brazil has a very high adult literacy rate for a country many deem to be "third world" and there are vast swathes of Brazil that dont look much morethird world then the Elephant and Castle in London.

Hidden Abuses Against Detained Youths in Rio de Janeiro

From the Human Rights Watch Organisation
Egregious abuses in the criminal justice system—including extrajudicial killings and torture by police and prison authorities—remain
London Police can't even be compared to that.