Several explosions on London Underground

[Flame-returns]

representing a 25 percent decline from the previous year’s figure

That about sums it up really, can you find massive swathes of the population being eradicated post 1995.

Explain then, "perfesser," why there have been no terrorist attacks in France, Germany, Canada or Japan;

To my knowledge the German police force conducted a massive stig operation in 2002-3 in which they seized several recce videos shot on Hi8 of a market location, and enough explosives to blow up a large building.

It culminated in arrests of AL Quaeda members.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

That about sums it up really, can you find massive swathes of the population being eradicated post 1995.

The decrease is from 2003-2004, not sure where you got 1995.

Despite these decreases, unofficial estimates have placed the total number of police killings in Brazil at around 3,000 annually. Indeed, the death toll may be even higher as many states do not record such figures correctly and some do not record them at all.

3000 a year killed by police in 2004

Enough of Brazils problems, point was, it is hypocritical of the Mayor to have a pop at the UK over police killings.

 

[ledhed]

well I was going to just list all of the terror attacks around the world and to respond to more of RKs drivel. But you guys beat me to it .
Lets see now because of complaints of some cadets in the air force academy reguarding "too much religion "...we are now engaged in a crusade ? Are you that desperate ?
You started out at least making some sense . Now you are beginning to remind me of a guy running around in a sandwich board in a park with a bullhorn while men with nets try to chase him down .

 

[Touring Mars]

Enough of Brazils problems, point was, it is hypocritical of the Mayor to have a pop at the UK over police killings.

I agree... It's horrendous thatan innocent man died, but the threat is still very real... only yesterday they arrested two men on a train heading for King's Cross The police have had over 250 suicide bomb alerts since the 7th, seven of which were almost shootings too.... it's inevitable that people are going to get mixed up with police operations, so that's why you shouldn't run from armed police...

 

[Flame-returns]

The decrease was quoted as supporting my comment about Brazil improving. the 1995 benchmark was used as during the late 80s and early 90s Brazil could be accused of bordering on genocide, this has changed greatly.

Yes, I agree that it was slightly hypocritical of the mayor of Gonzaga to attack the UK police force. However Brazil is a FAIRLY liberal place (by the world's standards)

 

[rk]

Let me put the point in simple terms that every surviving child in Brazil should be able to understand. Mind you, it would have to be without the supporting statements that less ponderously contemplative intellects might consider "circular."

The G8 summit does not mark a turning point in basic human rights the way a misdirected and accepted extra-judical execution in a country that is a leader in the civilized world does.

THAT could be the reason why the circumstance is "grabbing" so many headlines.
Tacet Blue, you misunderstand my detailed posts, you may notice that I attempt to explain how easily the coalition can be characterized as a "crusade" in an effort to bring the awarness that we must distance ourselves from that stance, lest we suffer the same fate as the crusaders. In terms of terrorist attacks, you could qualify my statement to be "attacks during this century" or "since the invasion of Iraq," you own State Department supplied list supports the allegation, and the statement was intended to show that Islamic oriented extremists only attacked nations that "supported" Western democratization attempts. If you want to belive that all those terrorists hate democracy for its "civil" values, I can only attempt to broaden your awareness.

So far as the police in my community are concerned, I notice that they have recently started carrying "bannana" clip assault rifles and driving more unmarked cars, both acts of ominous implication. It used to be shotguns and handguns, both very good at disabling suspects, but less likely to kill. Police cars used to be universally black and white, highly visible; the idea being to deter crime before it started.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

The G8 summit does not mark a turning point in basic human rights the way a misdirected and accepted extra-judical execution in a country that is a leader in the civilized world does.

I can't agree with "turning point". The last high profile police shooting was in 1999 when Harry Stanley was shot dead when police mistook a plastic bag containing a table leg for a sawn off shotgun.
(quite why he had a table leg in a plastic bag is a mystery, some witnesses claim he was pretending it was a gun...)
Mistakes happen, the fact that I had to look back as far as 1999 shows that we don't do it 3000 times a year.

This is not a turning point, we have lived with IRA threats since 1914

Sinn Fein has long claimed the SAS and other British Army units used a shoot-to-kill policy against IRA members in Northern Ireland.

Among the cases highlighted are the 1992 shooting of four IRA men - Kevin O'Donnell, Patrick Vincent, Sean O'Farrell and Peter Clancy - in Clonoe, County Tyrone.

Three others - Peter Ryan, Tony Doris and Lawrence McNally - were killed in Coagh, County Tyrone, in June 1991 when SAS soldiers fired around 200 shots into the stolen car in which they were travelling.

Shoot-to-kill was also said to have been used by the SAS in Gibraltar in 1988 on three IRA suspects.

An inquest into the incident held on Gibraltar returned a verdict of lawful killing but the European Court of Justice verdict ruled that British soldiers violated the fundamental right to life of the three IRA members.

Many policing experts claim the threat posed by suicide bombers today is so much more serious than the danger from the Provisional IRA in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s that a shoot-to-kill policy is obligatory.

Visible deterrents don't work with determined terrorists, only opportunists are deterred by marked patrol cars. Covert operations and deep cover operatives proved very successful in Ireland.

News today, one of the suspects in the failed bombing attempts has been detained in Birmingham...interesting to note that he was tasered.

 

[Famine]

Visible deterrents don't work with determined terrorists, only opportunists are deterred by marked patrol cars.

A visible deterrent to an opportunist is a visible TARGET to a terrorist.

Incidentally, our eyewitness who saw the "Asian" man get shot "five times" in the head with a "black automatic pistol" also saw that he was carrying a bumbag (fanny pack, for our ex-Colonial colleagues) with "wires coming out of it".

Where DO they get these people from?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

I'm not Mr Blairs biggest fan to say the least, but heres a couple of quotes from him yesterday that are to the point.

11 September for me was a wake up call. Do you know what I think the problem is? That a lot of the world woke up for a short time and then turned over and went back to sleep again.

Let us expose the obscenity of these people saying it is concern for Iraq that drives them to terrorism. If it is concern for Iraq then why are they driving a car bomb into the middle of a group of children and killing them?

On a lighter note...

A visible deterrent to an opportunist is a visible TARGET to a terrorist.

Incidentally, our eyewitness who saw the "Asian" man get shot "five times" in the head with a "black automatic pistol" also saw that he was carrying a bumbag (fanny pack, for our ex-Colonial colleagues) with "wires coming out of it".

Where DO they get these people from?

Fanny pack Makes me laugh every time. If you can't tell your bum from your fanny etc...

 

[rk]

News today, one of the suspects in the failed bombing attempts has been detained in Birmingham...interesting to note that he was tasered.

Quite. Apparently they heeded my advice. I must remind myself to be careful what I say.

Let us expose the obscenity of these people saying it is concern for Iraq that drives them to terrorism. If it is concern for Iraq then why are they driving a car bomb into the middle of a group of children and killing them?

Just as we must carefully examine each others' arguments and positions, as in the case of my supposedly supporting the assumption the West is experiencing a crusade, we must be careful to not label the actions of individuals as part of a greater evil group called "them."
The man who drove his explosive laden car into a group of children to attack a single Humvee, served nobodies interests except his (likely delusional) own.

 

[sukerkin]

The following BBC link contains news that it's good to hear i.e. that the PM's wife holds these opinions bodes well for a little restraint from the man at the top:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4719977.stm

 

[Touring Mars]

Didn't want to start a new thread about this news story, since I think the ramifications of it are relevant to terrorism in general, which is kind of what this thread is all about...

but the IRA have officially ordered a cessation of violence...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4720863.stm

Hopefully one good thing to come from the GWOT (global war on terror) is that groups like the IRA, with a long and bloody history of terrorist activity, are finally starting to realise the futility of 'the way of violence'...

I'm not going to rush to slap them on the back, since they should have put down the guns many years ago, but its a hugely significant step... let's just hope that both sides can start acting like adults around the negotiating table now....

 

[rk]

Ever since my visit in 1975, I have viewed the UK as more socially progressive than the US. The world watches and looks to the English people as they develop solutions to deal with these extremely trying circumstances.

His plight is the single most chilling excess of President George W. Bush's conduct of the war on terror. It's also unconstitutional.http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion...,0,3912562.story?coll=ny-editorials-headlines

Dirty rat that he may be, Jose Padilla is still a US citizen.

*edit:this was posted in "oblique" response to sukerkins post.

 

[sukerkin]

"Padilla is a U.S. citizen suspected of a crime. He should be charged or released. Constitutional rights are not optional at the whim of the president."

Just a little snippet from RK's link.

A truism there if I ever heard one.

If you throw away your Rights (or permit them to be taken) then you might as well bow to the will of your enemy after all because you will become like him.

On the flip side of that particular Civil Rights coin tho', if you don't fight with every weapon you have then you lose the war and with that you often lose the Rights you hold dear too.

{Insert Smiley for a See-Saw (teeter-totter?) here}

 

[rk]

 

[Touring Mars]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4722775.stm

I wonder how did the ABC network get these pictures, and not the BBC... shows some of the devices the terrorists were going to use...

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Ever since my visit in 1975, I have viewed the UK as more socially progressive than the US. The world watches and looks to the English people as they develop solutions to deal with these extremely trying circumstances.

That's a nice thing to say, but you'd find it hard to believe that we are socially progressive if you happen to walk past a "Circle K" at 10pm

As for the IRA being told to dump their weapons and stop criminal activities is quite amazing...if that is what they do.

However my gut feeling is that this is a genuine commitment to peace on their part.

 

[Famine]

As for the IRA being told to dump their weapons and stop criminal activities is quite amazing...if that is what they do.

However my gut feeling is that this is a genuine commitment to peace on their part.

You do have to wonder whether the orders to shoot-to-kill being in effect on the UK mainland has anything to do with it.

 

[rk]

You do have to wonder whether the orders to shoot-to-kill being in effect on the UK mainland has anything to do with it.

I think the two are interrelated but the "Kratos initiative"
is not the cause; to quote a post made on the 24th:

For a while, during the 'Irish Problem', we had teams of SAS on the ground in Ireland whose sole purpose was the permanent removal of IRA members - it's not widely publicised but it happened. It's thought to be one of the reasons why, at long last, a more negotiated settlement was reached when the IRA leadership realised that the government had had enough and was prepared to do things the 'simple' way.

I would offer that anyone of any consequence in the IRA knew about this 'simple' solution, unless Kratos and the simple solution are one in the same and has been in effect since the 'Irish problem.'

Another quote that bears mentioning:

Oh, and tasering someone when there's a distinct possibility they're wearing crude explosive devices, triggered by an electrical detonator is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard expressed on this forum.

Didn't they throw the suspect in Birmingham's backpack out the window? I'll accept a polite retraction...

 

[ledhed]

I think the two are interrelated but the "Kratos initiative"
is not the cause; to quote a post made on the 24th:I would offer that anyone of any consequence in the IRA knew about this 'simple' solution, unless Kratos and the simple solution are one in the same and has been in effect since the 'Irish problem.'

Another quote that bears mentioning:
Didn't they throw the suspect in Birmingham's backpack out the window? I'll accept a polite retraction...

Maybe when they taser a suspect while he's wearing a bomb and he doesnt explode .

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Didn't they throw the suspect in Birmingham's backpack out the window? I'll accept a polite retraction...

Was he actualy wearing it when he was tasered?

Throwing it out the window doesn't sound like the bomb squad in action

 

[Famine]

I think the two are interrelated but the "Kratos initiative"
is not the cause; to quote a post made on the 24th:I would offer that anyone of any consequence in the IRA knew about this 'simple' solution, unless Kratos and the simple solution are one in the same and has been in effect since the 'Irish problem.'

England (and Wales and Scotland) on the right. Ireland on the left.

That is all.

(oh, in case you missed the point here, no suspected IRA terrorist has ever been shot dead by marksmen in the UK mainland. The policies in Northern Ireland were different, but then it's a different territory

Now, with the change in policy to bringing down suspected terrorists, shoot-to-kill, on the UK mainland, IRA operatives are facing a very different threat to their ability to carry out operations such as Deal and Warrington with impugnity).

Another quote that bears mentioning:
Didn't they throw the suspect in Birmingham's backpack out the window? I'll accept a polite retraction...

You can accept whatever you wish, but I still say that the notion of protecting the public by tasering someone who is wearing a crude, homemade bomb triggered by an electrical detonator in a crowded, underground train station is the single most stupid thing ever expressed on this site.

What this site has to do with backpacks being thrown out of windows I don't know.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

There is an armed siege going on right now on sky news in connection with a bomber suspect

They have given him 30mins of warnings...I'd have been in there with the SAS by now

They are trying so hard to take him alive, he is being asked to leave the flat in his underwear! So they can see if he is carrying a bomb.

 

[rk]

The actual chance of detonating an explosive device with a taser type gun, while not zero, is really quite low. I am sure the late Mr. Menezes could have explained this better; but, being the son of an electrician, I can give it a "shot."
The understanding of this fact comes through a grasp of a basic electrical axiom, called "Ohm's Law." Where voltage equals resistance multiplied by current, usually measured in amps; or V=IR for short. Commonly Taser guns use a small quantity of "AA" batteries resting in the grip with a total output of 14 volts. The output is stepped up through the use of induction coils and capacators (similar to an automotive ignition coil) to around 50,000 volts. Since the initial current of 8 "AA" batteries is quite low (they wouldn't even light a common household bulb), and resistance stays constant, the final current, using the above equation, is extremely low.
Explosive detonators, like blasting caps, on the other, hand rely on a relatively low voltage, somewhere around 200 or less, but they need a decent current to push the electrons through the relatively resistive explosive medium. Picture and old time mining switch which is a largish box containing a dynamo, actuated by a "T" handle; it actually takes some effort to depress the handle and energize the circult.
While terrorists are likely to use solid state circuitry and sensetive contact switches to create the ignition circuit, they still would incorporate a decent power supply and the circuit would likely use more that an extremely small fraction of an amp. The possibility that the would employ stepping coils to convert the taser charge to useable current is possible but somewhat absurd. 14 volts would certainly do the trick, but it would have to be shunted differently. The included photo shows how little voltage is required to detonate an explosive device.

The fact that the suspects backpack was thrown out the window indicates the officers believed there was a distinct possibility it contained explosives and it is probable that they incapacatated him with the taser before they took the pack.

 

[rk]

There is an armed siege going on right now on sky news in connection with a bomber suspect

They have given him 30mins of warnings...I'd have been in there with the SAS by now

They are trying so hard to take him alive, he is being asked to leave the flat in his underwear! So they can see if he is carrying a bomb.

The likely reason they want him alive is not to be "socially correct," but so, from him, they can extract "information."

 

[Famine]

(V=IR)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726485.stm

 

[rk]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4726485.stm

Could you explain the article's relation to Ohm's Law? Are you implying that a police commisioner is also an electrical expert, possibly more informed than the son of an electrician? Could it be that he is superstitious about effemeral "electrons" and more confident in tried and proven lead? Or are you in agreement and I completely misunderstand the purpose of the link?

 

[Famine]

I'm the son of a teacher. I expect that no Olympic athlete knows as much about teaching as I do!

No, wait...

Sir Ian Blair's knowledge is not in question. However, you asked if he's "more informed". Let's consider. You've got your information from one source - whichever parent it was who was an electrician - and possibly some experience. Sir Ian Blair, as commissioner, gets lots of information from lots of sources who are EXPERTS (not sons of experts) in many fields - forensics, bomb squad, counter-terrorism branch.

Is he "more informed"? Yes, clearly.

If Sir Ian Blair's advisers have told him that a terrorist wearing a crude bomb could be accidentally detonated by Taser, then that's the case.

I think the issue is that you're operating on the assumption that Mr. Terrorist has a naked wire touching his body for the low current to flow down and fail to do anything. You've not considered induced current.

 

[ledhed]

Could you explain the article's relation to Ohm's Law? Are you implying that a police commisioner is also an electrical expert, possibly more informed than the son of an electrician? Could it be that he is superstitious about effemeral "electrons" and more confident in tried and proven lead? Or are you in agreement and I completely misunderstand the purpose of the link?

No but he like all others TRAINED in the use of a taser type weapon , know that tasers and explosives do not mix well .
Stop being a numbnut and admit when you are wrong about something .

 

[sukerkin]

The actual chance of detonating an explosive device with a taser type gun, while not zero, is really quite low.

I don't know the ins and outs of Sir Ians information sources but the above is perfectly true.

Whether I'd be willing to be next to some explosives whilst you shot it with a TASER is another matter of course !