Shocking news! PP starting to work?

[Foxhound93]

100% sure? the gt500 would probably have to run a big air restrictor to fit in

I'm not so sure. For some reason, the GT500 cars have only around 570PP stock while GT3 cars have around 600PP. Still GT3 cars are significantly slower. Only thing is they should be added weight to meet same weight as GT3 cars which is around 1250-1350 kg. But then they would have even less PP so actually GT3 cars would require more power limiting to meet the 500bhp range of GT500 cars.

I think the PP system works better for road cars and cars only in same class.

 

[NixxxoN]

its impossible to have a really well balanced system I think... with PP, some cars are more powerful than others, and with weight+power limits, some cars will always handle better in corners than others so... its very very difficult to have, lets say, 16 different road cars, that are almost equally fast.

 

[Foxhound93]

its impossible to have a really well balanced system I think... with PP, some cars are more powerful than others, and with weight+power limits, some cars will always handle better in corners than others so... its very very difficult to have, lets say, 16 different road cars, that are almost equally fast.

I don't think that 16 different enough equal road cars would be too difficult to find thanks to GT6 massive car list. But with race cars it is much harder. And it isn't easy task too either with road cars but probably doable with little effort.

 

[azidahaka]

its impossible to have a really well balanced system I think... with PP, some cars are more powerful than others, and with weight+power limits, some cars will always handle better in corners than others so... its very very difficult to have, lets say, 16 different road cars, that are almost
equally fast.

The reason it works is that some card on same ppS and weight have very different pps...

When we had the race i mentioned the BMW had like 40 extra po they had to shave with adding Wright or lowering power.

PPS take into account the magic grip gt6 Adds to some cars even at esame pp level

 

[NixxxoN]

The reason it works is that some card on same ppS and weight have very different pps...

When we had the race i mentioned the BMW had like 40 extra po they had to shave with adding Wright or lowering power.

PPS take into account the magic grip gt6 Adds to some cars even at esame pp level

magic grip? what does that mean?
Cars are different because they have different shapes and designs, therefore they have different aero properties, and also they can have different weight distributions, drivetrains, engine layouts, and so on...

 

[LS Chiou]

Has anyone mentioned the significance of tracks? Seems not much.

I think the characters of tracks play a key role. The combinations of straights and bends determine how you use the power and cornering ability. Since cars with different power/weight/other conditions can yield a same pp, the actual results in different tracks would be varied wildly.

For example, in Spa, all those high speed sweepers favor Deltawing a lot. Its low drag / high DF body and unique layout brilliantly shine here. It can compete with other LMP cars with more than twice the power over here. So, their similar pp make sense in this case.

Moves to Le Mans (Sarthe) with long straights, this special Deltawing falls behind other same pp LMP cars of more than 10 sec. per lap. Now the pp is nonsense to me.

In Ascari, which is my favorite for street cars, staights are all short and full of sharp bends. Driving here, there's no significant advantage from high power. Instead, agility rules here. Again, pp is a joke here. Nimble small hatches with 500pp or so can beat super cars with over 600pp.

In several famous Japanese tracks, same thing happens. Fuji, Suzuka and Tsukuba are all very different and favoring different cars. A same batch of cars with same pp (but different in characters) would perform very differently in all these tracks.

So, unless the pp would change with track, I think it's still lacking in representing real performance. Yet the practicality and complexity of doing this would bring some other huge problems, I'm afraid.

 

[Griffith500]

magic grip? what does that mean?
Cars are different because they have different shapes and designs, therefore they have different aero properties, and also they can have different weight distributions, drivetrains, engine layouts, and so on...

I immediately thought "downforce". It's pretty magic.

 

[NixxxoN]

Has anyone mentioned the significance of tracks? Seems not much.

I think the characters of tracks play a key role. The combinations of straights and bends determine how you use the power and cornering ability. Since cars with different power/weight/other conditions can yield a same pp, the actual results in different tracks would be varied wildly.

For example, in Spa, all those high speed sweepers favor Deltawing a lot. Its low drag / high DF body and unique layout brilliantly shine here. It can compete with other LMP cars with more than twice the power over here. So, their similar pp make sense in this case.

Moves to Le Mans (Sarthe) with long straights, this special Deltawing falls behind other same pp LMP cars of more than 10 sec. per lap. Now the pp is nonsense to me.

In Ascari, which is my favorite for street cars, staights are all short and full of sharp bends. Driving here, there's no significant advantage from high power. Instead, agility rules here. Again, pp is a joke here. Nimble small hatches with 500pp or so can beat super cars with over 600pp.

In several famous Japanese tracks, same thing happens. Fuji, Suzuka and Tsukuba are all very different and favoring different cars. A same batch of cars with same pp (but different in characters) would perform very differently in all these tracks.

So, unless the pp would change with track, I think it's still lacking in representing real performance. Yet the practicality and complexity of doing this would bring some other huge problems, I'm afraid.

Yes, really well explained. Tracks are absolutely crucial in car performance.

 

[azidahaka]

magic grip? what does that mean?
Cars are different because they have different shapes and designs, therefore they have different aero properties, and also they can have different weight distributions, drivetrains, engine layouts, and so on...

i mean that extra grip some cars have due to mechanical performance or aero, that PP take into account.

what i meant is that 2 cars with 1140kg and 275hp can have up to a 40 pp difference. That difference i have no clue how it is calculated, but to fit in a ratio of pp the "grippier car" has to lower Hps or gain weight.

Doing this makes the cars way, way closer.


i was tipying on cellphone so i had my issues explaining myself

I immediately thought "downforce". It's pretty magic.

sure, it's like that damn bewitched "force of gravity"

 

[gtnoobie]

If the PP system did not change much from GT5, the main factors considered is area under the hp curve, cg and downforce. In short if the favored rpm during race is high, a late peak torque curve would provide the highest hp for the same pp. Great for long straights n close gear ratio. A low rpm max torque is usually disadvantaged in pp limited race tho in road cars low end torque is good for acceleration under normal road condition.

Indeed, how pp match up largely depends on track. In extreme examples like Route X, adding ballast, low downforce and high peak hp is likely best config for same pp. Even in pp, hp, weight matchup, ironically a low downforce car would likely do better.

Adding downforce do increase pp in gt5. Rarely play or tune gt6 as i run mainly stock cars

 

[SnakeOfBacon]

To test the abilities of the current PP system, I'd like to see somebody match PP between the X2014 Jr and any other car, then see if they achieve similar laptimes.

 

[azidahaka]

can you lower the x2014 to 275hp/1140kg and 450pp?

probably to fit in it would need to run at 100 hps lol

 

[Swagger897]

was lured into this thread by reading the title "PD starting to work"....

good reads though but i have never liked PP at all. I dont see kbb rating cars based on similar thins sooo

 

[Polsixe]

The PP always has worked with the limitations others have already expressed. PP is primarily a HP/weight formula. Getting hung up on areas of torque curves is false precision. What you've done with setting a PP band and a HP/weight criteria is you have doubled up and thereby compressed the relative performance factors of the cars.

The Trial Trial Celica at 460 PP would be the baseline car with this formula. There are 174 cars that come with PP stock between 445-475, it can be assumed many would be closely matched. Your HP and weight restrictions further remove the pure race and high HP cars from the mix.

 

[MJRL]

GT3 cars are more close to GT300, the GT3 Cars are used in the GT300 series.
PP should have work with the same categories of cars, but not even that it's possible.

This a GT300 GT3

 

[GTP_Jonjig]

GT3 cars are more close to GT300, the GT3 Cars are used in the GT300 series.
PP should have work with the same categories of cars, but not even that it's possible.

This a GT300 GT3

But IRL a GT300 is 1.5 sec off the pace of a FIA GT3...

interesting link

I know it's from 2012 but if you think how long GT6 was in development.......

 

[l_alcala_d]

For me the PP thing really work... It's just that the game don't select the right car or to say in another way It's selection criteria is too wide... When I read your post the first time I take my time to set some lap on cars with a maximun difference of 20 PP from the lowest to highest... My Finds:
CAR PR TIME
Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04 419 0:57.170
Honda Civic Type R '08 414 0:57.607
Renault Clio RS '11 403 0:58.163
Subaru BRZ '12 407 0:58.277
Ford Focus ST '06 415 0:58.439
Mazda RX-7 GT-X (FC) '90 406 0:58.549
Toyota Celica TRD Sport M '00 409 0:58.673
VW Golf GTI V 405 0:58.787
Peugeot RCZ '10 407 0:58.847
Mitsubishi Eclipse GT '95 413 0:58.938
Fiat Coupe Turbo Plus '00 409 0:58.956
Volvo C30R '09 415 0:59.625
Mini Cooper S '11 403 0:59.818
Lancia Delta HF Integrale Evolutione 401 1:00.080

3 seconds gap at max... Those time where made at Brands Hatch Indy, with ABS on 1, and the Track surface thing on real, all car on CS tires, no oild changes, no mods... Of course the Integra is to fast for the rest, but I thing that a series made on another circuit could have change the positions a bit (the Lancia has a god top speed an reach it very quickly)... What shock me??? the Clio that little thing beat cars with more power, it's a real sleeper, the beaten?? the Volvo it's basically the same Ford Focus with another fascia, but Ford just did a better job adjusting the suspension...

I just hope that the community thing that they promise us came fast, it will definitively allow us making real fun racing series...

 

[azidahaka]

A 20 pp difference is quite huge expecially on low pp cars.

Still interesting finds, i'm sure that such differences would be way lower after tuning... I'm sure the improvements on slower card would ben way bigger than on the faster ones.

 

[l_alcala_d]

Well I choose cars around 400 PP because most of them are hot hatchs, and I find that class of car particulary fun... my other favourite class is one where I can have a fun and fair fight with the RUF CTR "Yellowbird"... About tuning, not for me, not atleast until PD launch someway of creating a race where all cars have a fair chance of winning, most of the time I find rooms where I say to myself: "look a room for 500-550 PP non race cars" of course I enter and choose a stock car (most of the time the Yellowbird or the LFA ) and quickly get beaten by someones tune to the max MX-5, NSX or S2000... I don't have nothing againts tuning, but bored very quickly because I wanna run on a serie (or one race) of stock cars on SH or SS tires... Still hope that next installment get the mantra of "there is race for every car that are in the game" instead of "we're the game with more cars"... That's way I still play GT2, there're basically a race or serie of races that fit for every car in the game

 

[MJRL]

But IRL a GT300 is 1.5 sec off the pace of a FIA GT3...

interesting link

I know it's from 2012 but if you think how long GT6 was in development.......

I didn't say they are equal, i said more close...

 

[ManicDan]

I hope to see eventually they split PP into 2 parts:
Power vs Agility

As LS Chiou said perfectly, track matters. So I would think it best they give us a breakdown for how much acceleration there is in high speed, and how nimble a car is around a turn.

Power increased by:

Adding horsepower, lower drag, removing downforce, removing weight slightly​

Agility modified by:

greatly affected by weight, drivetrain, downforce, being lower to the ground, tire width.​

PD could simply take those 2 numbers and add them back up into PP, but the player could easily see where the cars performance really comes from. If someone adds a ballast they would see how the Agility number plummets while the Power number only decreases slightly. If they remove downforce their Agility drops, but Power increases (I am kinda mad downforce no longer changes PP dynamically like it did in GT5).

If someone were to make a room with 600pp limit, being no more than 60% saturated in either Power or Agility, then the cars would all be very similar to each other in design, resulting in a bunch of supercars with no crazy outliers. People currently use the min weight/max hp method to try and achieve the same effect.

So if people currently have a bit of a work around, do we really need to break out PP anymore? I think so. It would be great to filter and sort my cars without having to think much. If I'm headed to a track that is technical, I sort my garage by Agility. When making a room I dont have to get all complicated with what range of weight and HP is appropriate, I can simply adjust the Power/Agility range to be more or less restrictive and let everyone pick what makes them happy.

Thoughts?
-Dan

 

[Polsixe]

Here's a plot from @SuzukaStar's yeoman effort to test 600+ non-racecars at , Suzuka. Note a pretty clear, but not exact, relationship between laptimes and PP.

That outlier point at 175sec and 500 PP is a GoKart. And for instance you propbably need at least 350 PP to do a 2:30 lap at Suzuka,

 

[MidFieldMaven]

^ That is an AWESOME chart! Checked my spreadsheet and the only sub-400 PP car to do a 2:30 or better at Suzuka is the Hommell Berlinette R/S Coupe '99 with 395 PP.

 

[ManicDan]

I took a subset of the data, merged it with a database from GT5 to get the weight from each car (this worked for about half where the names matched perfectly), then created a different series for each weight class.
Under 1200,
1200-1400,
and Over 1400

Its not perfect because its just weight, and trying to link databases, but there are some pretty interesting clusters.

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

Here's a plot from @SuzukaStar's yeoman effort to test 600+ non-racecars at , Suzuka. Note a pretty clear, but not exact, relationship between laptimes and PP.

That outlier point at 175sec and 500 PP is a GoKart. And for instance you propbably need at least 350 PP to do a 2:30 lap at Suzuka,

I'd like to know who is the lil guy all alone on the 500pp line.

 

[MidFieldMaven]

I'd like to know who is the lil guy all alone on the 500pp line.

The answer is in the post you quoted

 

[GT6OuTLaW]

The answer is in the post you quoted

For sure my god it was in front of my face.

 

[dylansan]

I took a subset of the data, merged it with a database from GT5 to get the weight from each car (this worked for about half where the names matched perfectly), then created a different series for each weight class.
Under 1200,
1200-1400,
and Over 1400

Its not perfect because its just weight, and trying to link databases, but there are some pretty interesting clusters.

It seems as though, in general, lighter cars do slightly better for their PP than heavier cars do, which would indicate that PP doesn't take weight into account quite as much as it should. Of course, that's only for Suzuka. Lighter cars may not have such an advantage at other tracks with more straight sections.

I wonder if PD uses laptime data like this to create the PP calculations. I'd imagine they have to as these results are actually closer than I expected.

 

[ManicDan]

It seems as though, in general, lighter cars do slightly better for their PP than heavier cars do, which would indicate that PP doesn't take weight into account quite as much as it should. Of course, that's only for Suzuka. Lighter cars may not have such an advantage at other tracks with more straight sections.

I wonder if PD uses laptime data like this to create the PP calculations. I'd imagine they have to as these results are actually closer than I expected.

I bet its very easy for them to simulate lap times to test for accuracy. A few patches ago they modified PP for FR cars

However in just that track alone we see a 10 second spread across the same PP, and 10s is the same as having 20 more PP, which is about the same as giving a car a supercharger.

BUT the data is with just one driver. I would love to see a couple thousand close data points and see how much variation there is.

 

[Polsixe]

I'd like to know who is the lil guy all alone on the 500pp line.

That's a Red Bull Go Kart...