- 3,417
- NJ
- Rave2Grave
Shocking news! PP starting to work?
- Thread starter azidahaka
- 69 comments
- 5,880 views
- 1,494
- Portland / Or /
- Barefoot_Driver
I believe they do.
Imagine your PS3 generating a "perfect driving line" (that blue line you can turn on and off in the game). Now imagine a "perfect driver" executing that line (aka Bob, or B-Spec, but without any 'personality' variance).
PD can predict how a car will operate based on its setup (weight distribution, drivetrain, hp and torque curves, etc. ) because it can execute (what they consider) a perfect lap. Since this 'perfect lap' can be broken down into one (long) mathmatical formula the game can predict how the car will do without actually running the lap every time.
Make a change, recalculate, make another change, recalculate.
I doubt it's even that hard. PD probably broke the long lap formula down into a nice and tidy formula, which will be much more complex than just HP( or torque, whichever)/weight/drivetrain. Because the lap is executed by a perfect driver much of the tuning we can do (toe angle, LSD, spring rates) won't come into consideration.
I also think that PD leaves some variables out of the PP formula that do effect this 'perfect lap', such as areo and gear ratios.
What I'd love to know is: what track are they using for this 'perfect lap.'
Edit:
- 59
- Philly
- danmanic
I think areo does factor in, both drag and downforce, but gear ratios is a funny one. A badly set up car might need some major changes to the gear box to drive right, and it would not change PP, but greatly change how fast it can run a lap. Given these are mostly sports cars, it probably does not happen very often.
- 5,669
- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
Sorry for the necrobump on this thread but I wanted to do a search and comment rather than creating a new thread.
Regarding PP calculation, it would help to identify what actually changes PP on a car.
For the most part that would be items which modify the power/weight of the car, and the odd item related to downforce (Flat Floors for example).
Already there is an issue with this. Take the following 2 cars:
In terms of laptime, the second version of the car will be much faster than the original version in most cases.
However, the PP is exactly the same, as brakes, suspension and gearboxes have no effect on PP.
This is fundamentally wrong, and immediately proves that using PP alone to balance cars is a futile exercise.
For comparison's sake, let's take a look at the system used in Forza Motorsport 4, the PI system.
Turn 10 provided a lot of insight into the PI system in the early days of Forza Motorsport 4 after adjusting it to eliminate an exploit that many players had found with (not) installing gearboxes with longer stock ratios (if there are any Forza veterans here all I need to mention is the Dodge Dart and you know what I'm referring to). Since the launch of Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10 have updated their website/forum which makes it harder to find the original posts so I'll simply paraphrase from memory here instead:
The PI system in-game is a representation of an AI car driving around a specially crafted track (which doesn't exist in-game, but is said to be similar to a pre-2010 Silverstone), driving a theoretically perfect racing line.
This "perfect laptime" is calculated and its result is represented as a PI number. The higher the PI, the "better" that car is.
So far this is pretty much the same system that I imagine Gran Turismo 6 is using. However, this is also where the 2 games diverge.
While the PP system generally only takes power/weight/torque into consideration, the PI system factors in every additional part that can be added to a car (examples below).
When balancing cars for racing series in Forza Motorsport 4, sometimes it was as simple as setting them to the same PI and you were done (assuming some basics such as each car using the same drivetrain). In fact, if you ignored the 3-4 "leaderboard cars" in each class, online lobby racing was remarkably balanced at certain PI levels (B/500 especially, which would be the equivalent of 450pp in GT6) considering how many variables were at play.
So that illustrates how a car rating system should work in a game, and moreso how you can't rely on PP alone to balance any 2 cars in Gran Turismo 6. As a matter of fact, you can't even rely on power/weight as upgradeable components such as suspension and transmission don't make any difference to PP at all.
The only way to balance cars in GT6 is to do it manually, by building cars, running laps and logging the data. Such a process takes a lot of time, and for career/lobby racing is simply not worth the effort. If balancing cars for a competitive racing series, then it must be done, but for anything else you can't rely on GT6's rating systems to keep cars on an even level.
Regarding PP calculation, it would help to identify what actually changes PP on a car.
For the most part that would be items which modify the power/weight of the car, and the odd item related to downforce (Flat Floors for example).
Already there is an issue with this. Take the following 2 cars:
- Typical sports car, with stock brakes, suspension and gearing.
- Exact same car, now with racing brakes, adjustable (and tuned) suspension and modified gear ratios.
In terms of laptime, the second version of the car will be much faster than the original version in most cases.
However, the PP is exactly the same, as brakes, suspension and gearboxes have no effect on PP.
This is fundamentally wrong, and immediately proves that using PP alone to balance cars is a futile exercise.
For comparison's sake, let's take a look at the system used in Forza Motorsport 4, the PI system.
Turn 10 provided a lot of insight into the PI system in the early days of Forza Motorsport 4 after adjusting it to eliminate an exploit that many players had found with (not) installing gearboxes with longer stock ratios (if there are any Forza veterans here all I need to mention is the Dodge Dart and you know what I'm referring to). Since the launch of Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10 have updated their website/forum which makes it harder to find the original posts so I'll simply paraphrase from memory here instead:
The PI system in-game is a representation of an AI car driving around a specially crafted track (which doesn't exist in-game, but is said to be similar to a pre-2010 Silverstone), driving a theoretically perfect racing line.
This "perfect laptime" is calculated and its result is represented as a PI number. The higher the PI, the "better" that car is.
So far this is pretty much the same system that I imagine Gran Turismo 6 is using. However, this is also where the 2 games diverge.
While the PP system generally only takes power/weight/torque into consideration, the PI system factors in every additional part that can be added to a car (examples below).
- If you upgrade the flywheel, the PI could jump between 1 and 5 points.
- If you add racing suspension, the PI would increase by 10-20 points.
- If you switched from Street Tyres to Race Tyres, the PI would often change by 40 or more.
- Custom wheel rims (both in terms of size and weight) had effects in PI, with heavier rims actually making the PI do down.
- If you did a drivetrain swap (ie: converted an FF to FR, or an FR to AWD etc.) the PI would take a massive nosedive or increase dramatically. Naturally the car would drive differently as a result.
- If you installed a wing, PI would increase or decrease depending on how much downforce/drag it could produce.
When balancing cars for racing series in Forza Motorsport 4, sometimes it was as simple as setting them to the same PI and you were done (assuming some basics such as each car using the same drivetrain). In fact, if you ignored the 3-4 "leaderboard cars" in each class, online lobby racing was remarkably balanced at certain PI levels (B/500 especially, which would be the equivalent of 450pp in GT6) considering how many variables were at play.
So that illustrates how a car rating system should work in a game, and moreso how you can't rely on PP alone to balance any 2 cars in Gran Turismo 6. As a matter of fact, you can't even rely on power/weight as upgradeable components such as suspension and transmission don't make any difference to PP at all.
The only way to balance cars in GT6 is to do it manually, by building cars, running laps and logging the data. Such a process takes a lot of time, and for career/lobby racing is simply not worth the effort. If balancing cars for a competitive racing series, then it must be done, but for anything else you can't rely on GT6's rating systems to keep cars on an even level.
PD should use online data to ascertain which cars are too fast for their PP levels and nerf/buff certain cars PP's to provide continued balance for online play and provide a platform for more varied lobbies and seasonals.
It can't be hard to do, loads of games patch balance in.
It can't be hard to do, loads of games patch balance in.
Last edited:
- 59
- Philly
- danmanic
Sorry for the necrobump on this thread but I wanted to do a search and comment rather than creating a new thread.
Regarding PP calculation, it would help to identify what actually changes PP on a car.
For the most part that would be items which modify the power/weight of the car, and the odd item related to downforce (Flat Floors for example).
Already there is an issue with this. Take the following 2 cars:
- Typical sports car, with stock brakes, suspension and gearing.
- Exact same car, now with racing brakes, adjustable (and tuned) suspension and modified gear ratios.
In terms of laptime, the second version of the car will be much faster than the original version in most cases.
However, the PP is exactly the same, as brakes, suspension and gearboxes have no effect on PP.
This is fundamentally wrong, and immediately proves that using PP alone to balance cars is a futile exercise.
For comparison's sake, let's take a look at the system used in Forza Motorsport 4, the PI system.
Turn 10 provided a lot of insight into the PI system in the early days of Forza Motorsport 4 after adjusting it to eliminate an exploit that many players had found with (not) installing gearboxes with longer stock ratios (if there are any Forza veterans here all I need to mention is the Dodge Dart and you know what I'm referring to). Since the launch of Forza Motorsport 5, Turn 10 have updated their website/forum which makes it harder to find the original posts so I'll simply paraphrase from memory here instead:
The PI system in-game is a representation of an AI car driving around a specially crafted track (which doesn't exist in-game, but is said to be similar to a pre-2010 Silverstone), driving a theoretically perfect racing line.
This "perfect laptime" is calculated and its result is represented as a PI number. The higher the PI, the "better" that car is.
So far this is pretty much the same system that I imagine Gran Turismo 6 is using. However, this is also where the 2 games diverge.
While the PP system generally only takes power/weight/torque into consideration, the PI system factors in every additional part that can be added to a car (examples below).
As you can see, the PI system gave a far greater representation of the theoretical performance of a car than the PP system does, as it also took handling upgrades into consideration as well as the basics of power/weight/torque. It wasn't perfect, but more often than not the game did a pretty good job at balancing cars with its rating system.
- If you upgrade the flywheel, the PI could jump between 1 and 5 points.
- If you add racing suspension, the PI would increase by 10-20 points.
- If you switched from Street Tyres to Race Tyres, the PI would often change by 40 or more.
- Custom wheel rims (both in terms of size and weight) had effects in PI, with heavier rims actually making the PI do down.
- If you did a drivetrain swap (ie: converted an FF to FR, or an FR to AWD etc.) the PI would take a massive nosedive or increase dramatically. Naturally the car would drive differently as a result.
- If you installed a wing, PI would increase or decrease depending on how much downforce/drag it could produce.
When balancing cars for racing series in Forza Motorsport 4, sometimes it was as simple as setting them to the same PI and you were done (assuming some basics such as each car using the same drivetrain). In fact, if you ignored the 3-4 "leaderboard cars" in each class, online lobby racing was remarkably balanced at certain PI levels (B/500 especially, which would be the equivalent of 450pp in GT6) considering how many variables were at play.
So that illustrates how a car rating system should work in a game, and moreso how you can't rely on PP alone to balance any 2 cars in Gran Turismo 6. As a matter of fact, you can't even rely on power/weight as upgradeable components such as suspension and transmission don't make any difference to PP at all.
The only way to balance cars in GT6 is to do it manually, by building cars, running laps and logging the data. Such a process takes a lot of time, and for career/lobby racing is simply not worth the effort. If balancing cars for a competitive racing series, then it must be done, but for anything else you can't rely on GT6's rating systems to keep cars on an even level.
the flaw even with that system still exists, some tracks like high power, some prefer lightweight cars with high downforce. i posted in a different thread a way to handle the problem, and its divide the points into 2 numbers, Power Points and Agility Points. players could quickly identify if a car is all about strait line speed or its ability to turn. and it would be easy to calculate and simulate because a car would only need to be tested for how well it accelerates from speed A to speed B, and how many Gs it can maintain around a circle.
- 1,689
- NY
- SavageEvil
I think we are all missing a few things, PP is track agnostic. I has no track in mind it's the performance of the car based on it's overall handling, acceleration, deceleration, braking, skidpad. Not sure why anyone would think PP is somehow tied to any course, it's not in anyway.
PD has done quite enough, it's up to us to figure out what car is ideal for which course.
I do wish I had the performance test in this game, I have built out GT3 styled racers out of premium cars and all run the same weight 1350kgs, and have all the same aero parts installed front end and rear spoiler at 15. Their power numbers varies quite a lot, in fact it's telling of just how much variance there is in PP based on powerband in a car versus another car. I have a Stingray with 534hp and an M3 at 580hp and they both put down similar lap times but the C7 is quicker...go figure. Mind you the weights are the same, weight split is the same, same aero is added including the absurdly PP sapping underbody work. They are both running V8's, yet the 'Vette is running at nearly 50hp deficit can still outperform the M3. PP is simply just a ballpark area, but weight and aero limits have to be added, could also be the tires(but PD still haven't given us that magic back). GT5 had a time when tires affected PP and it made sense only a few cars broke it like the Speed 12, but I think we should see a return of tires affecting PP also there should be a stock tire choice which ideally mimics the original tire compound the car ran. I run my cars on Sport Hard for everything. I also have some MR cars but only one can fit(360 Modena) as the others are absolutely unfair at the same weight because of drive layout dynamics.
PD needs to give a lot more information about each and every car. We need base aero Cd, skid pad, slalom, braking distances, acceleration, top speed and there should be one for the current setup of the car. This would help in choosing cars that would fit the course dynamics, I said help not be all end all. Just like PP alone won't sufficiently judge cars performance or set rules. You have to utilize weight limit, drive train limit and power limit making the pool of restrictions tighter.
To PJTierney I have Forza 4 and PI doesn't match cars equally either. It's an impossibility in fact I have cars that have absolutely ludicrous tunes, insane hp numbers but still fit in the usual Forza S class max. It handles like a monster truck on ice but it goes like greased lightning, same PI as other S Class cars. One thing that Forza has is the bars that shows which areas the car does well in these are what helps making choices a little bit easier. Most of Forza PI changes comes from weight and not power related, you are incorrect about aero. Forza's aero does exactly as GT's gives you a solid change based on the max downforce capable it's not dynamic, I've tried moving it up and down and absolutely no change even when removing nearly 400lbs of down force. Then you say clearly at certain levels minus the leaderboard cars PI works at certain classes. So it's the very same as GT's is it not? Minus the GT alien car in certain PP limits it works fine but as I stated it takes adding and using the weight, drivetrain and power limits. Street cars are all over the place, they sport wildly varying aero Cd, weight distribution, weights, power output and other, notice in racing cars all have to adhere to stringent rules to achieve a level playing field. Why are any of us expecting a game to give us magical control where realistically outside of rule laden competitive racing none exists? Even if PD can give the perfect PP of every car, there is still driver ability and that accounts for a lot.
I think we are forgetting that even if cars are identical, their actual performance will have slight variations. No game is perfect but which game claims to be? At least there is a system that classes the cars, back in GT4 there was no system to speak of that would be a massive fustercluck online. It's not that much of a pain to tune cars and find out it's peak performance to pp limit, in fact many folks love that and dive head first. The original GT player does that, it's what they found captivating to begin with. Finding that auto which can perform, don't worry everything has shortcomings somewhere?
PD has done quite enough, it's up to us to figure out what car is ideal for which course.
I do wish I had the performance test in this game, I have built out GT3 styled racers out of premium cars and all run the same weight 1350kgs, and have all the same aero parts installed front end and rear spoiler at 15. Their power numbers varies quite a lot, in fact it's telling of just how much variance there is in PP based on powerband in a car versus another car. I have a Stingray with 534hp and an M3 at 580hp and they both put down similar lap times but the C7 is quicker...go figure. Mind you the weights are the same, weight split is the same, same aero is added including the absurdly PP sapping underbody work. They are both running V8's, yet the 'Vette is running at nearly 50hp deficit can still outperform the M3. PP is simply just a ballpark area, but weight and aero limits have to be added, could also be the tires(but PD still haven't given us that magic back). GT5 had a time when tires affected PP and it made sense only a few cars broke it like the Speed 12, but I think we should see a return of tires affecting PP also there should be a stock tire choice which ideally mimics the original tire compound the car ran. I run my cars on Sport Hard for everything. I also have some MR cars but only one can fit(360 Modena) as the others are absolutely unfair at the same weight because of drive layout dynamics.
PD needs to give a lot more information about each and every car. We need base aero Cd, skid pad, slalom, braking distances, acceleration, top speed and there should be one for the current setup of the car. This would help in choosing cars that would fit the course dynamics, I said help not be all end all. Just like PP alone won't sufficiently judge cars performance or set rules. You have to utilize weight limit, drive train limit and power limit making the pool of restrictions tighter.
To PJTierney I have Forza 4 and PI doesn't match cars equally either. It's an impossibility in fact I have cars that have absolutely ludicrous tunes, insane hp numbers but still fit in the usual Forza S class max. It handles like a monster truck on ice but it goes like greased lightning, same PI as other S Class cars. One thing that Forza has is the bars that shows which areas the car does well in these are what helps making choices a little bit easier. Most of Forza PI changes comes from weight and not power related, you are incorrect about aero. Forza's aero does exactly as GT's gives you a solid change based on the max downforce capable it's not dynamic, I've tried moving it up and down and absolutely no change even when removing nearly 400lbs of down force. Then you say clearly at certain levels minus the leaderboard cars PI works at certain classes. So it's the very same as GT's is it not? Minus the GT alien car in certain PP limits it works fine but as I stated it takes adding and using the weight, drivetrain and power limits. Street cars are all over the place, they sport wildly varying aero Cd, weight distribution, weights, power output and other, notice in racing cars all have to adhere to stringent rules to achieve a level playing field. Why are any of us expecting a game to give us magical control where realistically outside of rule laden competitive racing none exists? Even if PD can give the perfect PP of every car, there is still driver ability and that accounts for a lot.
I think we are forgetting that even if cars are identical, their actual performance will have slight variations. No game is perfect but which game claims to be? At least there is a system that classes the cars, back in GT4 there was no system to speak of that would be a massive fustercluck online. It's not that much of a pain to tune cars and find out it's peak performance to pp limit, in fact many folks love that and dive head first. The original GT player does that, it's what they found captivating to begin with. Finding that auto which can perform, don't worry everything has shortcomings somewhere?
- 422
- Sideways on GTPlanet
Yes, I've tested this with GT3s, Super GTs. If you give them all the same weight/hp and a very close pp limit (if not the same for each cars) they'll be matching each other and you'll have close racing. I haven't had the time to try with some other cars but I'll need to match some more cars.
- 5,669
- Codemasters (EA)
- PJTierney
- 422
- Sideways on GTPlanet
It's not that I don't want to try to match those cars but I don't really have time to try it right now, so this is how I process to match the cars:I'd like to see what you can do with Group C cars actually
1/ find the heaviest car of all the ones you want to match.
2/ find the most powerful.
3/ which one doesn't have the weight set at 50/50.
4/ put the weight on the cars you want to match so that the weight can be at 50/50.
5/ give them the same hp.
6/ find which one has the most pp.
7/ then I try to match the pp of the other cars to the highest pp. (if that doesn't match try to match the lower pp), to do that you'll have to play with the turbo and all the other things available.
8/ if one of the cars is way bellow/above in terms of pp, give it a try on any track you now well see if it match the lap times of the other ones, if it's way slower or faster, you might want to consider matching it with some other cars.
Just keep in mind that I'm not an expert at this at all, it just happened to work with the cars I tried to match.
