Shootings and explosions in Paris.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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@urmie Ironically thats what most terrorist tactics are.

Also, i dare you to do that. Dont be shocked though if ISIS suddenly terrorize even more brutally and frequently.
 
RC45
I know you are not this stupid - a surprise bomb attack is a surprise bomb attack, but a shooting is not a surprise bomb attack and the jihadis on Friday took their time picking people off where they could.
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Except they didn't. They quite literally prayed and sprayed. The reality is that they could have just as easily detonated the.bomb and still had the same.
impact.

But I hear you loud and clear and I will put you in the "I would rather die in a pool of my own p!ss than even have a chance to fight back if I could" column.
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I'll tell that to my Sergeant tomorrow evening, just after I've finished my dayjob on the firing range with a 50 cal. Remind me what you do in your day job and spare time?
 
urmie
Every terrorist has family/relatives, why don't they go after them? Play dirty like they do. Has this ever been done before?

These are relatively young men, what the heck are the parents doing? When there are bullies, the parents are to blame, why not these parents as well? Blacklist the family in the community, turning a blind eye on your sons/daughters doesn't make you "innocent".

If they've been "gone" for awhile, (gee, our son went to "vacation" in Turkey, but hasn't returned, hmmmmm) report it to the authorities and not keep quiet hoping for their return.

Tactics need to change, not just drop bombs.
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Is it wrong this post reminds me of that South Park episode which involves Cartman farting in the faces of two detained Muslims?
 
Belgium- Spain football friendly tomorrow has been cancelled because of the terror threat.
Bugger, i was looking forward to that game but i guess it's for the good.
 
mister dog
Belgium- Spain football friendly tomorrow has been cancelled because of the terror threat.
Bugger, i was looking forward to that game but i guess it's for the good.
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...I'm sure a lot of sporting events will get cancelled/postponed going forward. It patently sucks, I tell ya.

About that footy match - Spain would've won anyway. :P No point in playing, right?
 
JKgo
...I'm sure a lot of sporting events will get cancelled/postponed going forward. It patently sucks, I tell ya.

About that footy match - Spain would've won anyway. :P No point in playing, right?
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Ahem, we just beat Italy 3-1 this friday and are nr. 1 on the FIFA ranking? :dopey:

Anyhow, apparently the terrorist on the loose was last spotted in the vicinity of the King Boudewijn stadium, the Belgian gov. just requested the football association in the last hour to cancel it, as they suspect he's planning an attack himself.
So other football games across Europe will probably not be affected.
 
everybody should be agreeing with Ron even if you disagree with him:




As for the governors refusing migrants, of course they should be refusing them but not because of what happened in Paris, but simpily because like all illegals coming to America, they're nothing but welfare migrants. That said, the less migrants the less of a burden they are on taxpayers.
 
killerjimbag
20 States are now refusing any Syrian refugees. This is not a good thing.
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Why is this a bad thing?

Lets be honest. We (The United States) cannot keep all of our own people from being homeless, from being hungry, and keeping our Veterans Hospitals up to date to keep Veterans healthy. Why would we just welcome more problems?
 
kolio
Why is this a bad thing?

Lets be honest. We (The United States) cannot keep all of our own people from being homeless, from being hungry, and keeping our Veterans Hospitals up to date to keep Veterans healthy. Why would we just welcome more problems?
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Bro,I live in Canada,we now have an idiot like Obama as Prime Minister.
Need I say more! Immigration brings votes my friend,his father did it 40 years ago.
 
McLaren
An interesting point I read today that might add some fuel to a fire: The Tsarnaev brothers were also considered as Chechnya refugees.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/01/u-s-refugee-chief-didnt-know-boston-bombers-were-refugees/

Of course, the question is where they radicalized before or after coming to the US? I suppose it's also worth noting they only made it here b/c their parents were granted asylum.
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Chechnya and Dagestan used to be countries under islamic extremist rule during the 90s and early 2000's.

What most of us westerners don't take into account is the 2 or 3 wars that Russia fought against this same kind of radical islamism. Curiously enough Al-Qaeda also supported Chechens on their fight against Russia, and those same war veterans are very likely to be the "experienced mercenaries" that train and fight alongside ISIS. Hence why they can capture tanks-cars and other type of weaponry and make them useful.

They were already potential terrorist elements at the same moment they left Dagestan and Chechnya. Unfortunately during that war Russia committed a lot of atrocities, which serve as framework for current ISIS activities, the Russians have an interest on elminitate these group, as they themselves make them a greater threat that it could have been.

One big problem for the US is that they are going to go towards Syrian refugees and immigrants, without realising that other potential terrorist elements might be there and not be from Syria.
 
As cold hearted as it sounds if I were in the EU I would no longer consider these people refugees, I would classify them as invaders. This is just the start, it will get worse.
 
RC45
By NOT permitting people to even be able to try defend themselves what you are guaranteeing is that more people will die than not.
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I know someone who had to dodge bullets Friday during the terrorist attack, and i was supposed to lunch in the first attacked restaurant the day after. Walking home that night turned out to be a paranoiac scan process of every human being we crossed. So, yes, i may feel safer with a gun, but i know as a fact it's the wrong path to follow.

The problem of your stance is that it relies on an incomplete reasoning. You just stop thinking at one point because it leads you were you want to go.
You state that if people have gun to defend during the attack, there wouldn't have been so much kills. Let's pretend it is the case (i don't think it is, but you already had answers about that and that's not my point).
The problem is that in order to have guns available to defend at a given moment and a given time, we need gun all the time and everywhere. They can't fall from above like oxygen masks in a plane. And this IS the problem: proliferation. Guns could be and advantage during these few crucial minutes and in this place, but are deleterious during the zillion of minutes that separate such attacks. Homicides rate is almost 10 times higher in USA compare to France or UK (6.2 vs 0.7 every 100,000 hab.). Even the most populist french politicians wouldn't dare to bring such debate on the table.
 
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Milouse
Homicides rate is almost 10 times higher in USA compare to France or UK (6.2 vs 0.7 every 100,000 hab.).
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Got to argue with that stat. According to Police statistics, if you throw out just four cities (using 2015 data as of August) in the entire United States, Baltimore with 215 murders (a 56% increase from August of 2014), Chicago with 294 Murders (a 20% increase), New York City with 208 murders (9%), and Philadelphia with 171 murders (4%), we would actually have one of the lower homicide rates per 100,000 in the world. The common denominator in those four cities is that they have some form of "May Permit" form of Gun control when carrying a weapon in those cities. Just so we're clear, a May Permit adds another layer to the process of procuring a gun in any city that has one (another city that should be mentioned in this conversation, Washington DC, also has a May Permit system after the US Supreme Court struck down their Gun Control law a few years back.) Meaning that in addition to your standard background checks, you have to get final approval from your city's Chief of Police before even allowed to buy a gun.
 
Sanji Himura
Got to argue with that stat. According to Police statistics, if you throw out just four cities (using 2015 data as of August) in the entire United States, Baltimore with 215 murders (a 56% increase from August of 2014), Chicago with 294 Murders (a 20% increase), New York City with 208 murders (9%), and Philadelphia with 171 murders (4%), we would actually have one of the lower homicide rates per 100,000 in the world. The common denominator in those four cities is that they have some form of "May Permit" form of Gun control when carrying a weapon in those cities. Just so we're clear, a May Permit adds another layer to the process of procuring a gun in any city that has one (another city that should be mentioned in this conversation, Washington DC, also has a May Permit system after the US Supreme Court struck down their Gun Control law a few years back.) Meaning that in addition to your standard background checks, you have to get final approval from your city's Chief of Police before even allowed to buy a gun.[/QUOTE
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Toronto is the third largest city in North America.
They had 41 homicides up until October,21 of those by guns. That's for over 3 million people. I don't think your gun laws are working to well!
 
I just re read this article by Noam Chomsky, I find it very relevant still. It was written on January 2015 after Charlie Hebdo's attack. It is very confronting but it makes a very valid point, speaks about the West's double standards, "Us and Them".


Chomsky: Paris attacks show hypocrisy of West’s outrage


Now to be honest, I am an atheist and when I hear tragic stories like these recent attacks I get outraged and I quickly blame religions to a degree for fueling this. Thankfully that only lasts a couple of seconds and I realize how stupid it is to think that. I see already in this thread how it went from pointing the finger at Islam to Refugees for these actions.

Going back to the article this paragraph stood out for me:

There are many other events that call for no inquiry into western culture and history — for example, the worst single terrorist atrocity in Europe in recent years, in July 2011, when Anders Breivik, a Christian ultra-Zionist extremist and Islamophobe, slaughtered 77 people, mostly teenagers.
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RC45
Here is a simple question - Would you rather just lie down and wait to be shot to death or would you like the chance to fight back or even have someone else fight back for you to allow you to try escape?
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I see this is a rhetorical question, because to you only the latter will probably make sense. but I'd like to answer it anyway. I hope you realize that our European culture is very different from yours. We(*) have different mindsets, different values, a different take on what freedom is. To us freedom does not mean that everyone is allowed to carry a gun at all times. To us freedom means to live in a society where there is no need for such a thing. A society where the biggest danger we face in our daily lives, is to cross the street. But we do expect from our governments that they do their utmost best to protect us from harm, with the limited resources we grant them as voters and taxpayer. And we accept that that is not enough to protect us from all attacks. To us a society where everyone walks around with a gun, would feel like a prison. We would not feel free.

(*) Of course not all Europeans share these sentiments.
 
Sanji Himura
Got to argue with that stat. According to Police statistics, if you throw out just four cities (using 2015 data as of August) in the entire United States, Baltimore with 215 murders (a 56% increase from August of 2014), Chicago with 294 Murders (a 20% increase), New York City with 208 murders (9%), and Philadelphia with 171 murders (4%), we would actually have one of the lower homicide rates per 100,000 in the world. The common denominator in those four cities is that they have some form of "May Permit" form of Gun control when carrying a weapon in those cities. Just so we're clear, a May Permit adds another layer to the process of procuring a gun in any city that has one (another city that should be mentioned in this conversation, Washington DC, also has a May Permit system after the US Supreme Court struck down their Gun Control law a few years back.) Meaning that in addition to your standard background checks, you have to get final approval from your city's Chief of Police before even allowed to buy a gun.
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How do you work that one out? Removing 888 murders from your total of 15-20,000 (not sure on exact number, it's actually 21,942 going by Milouse's rate), isn't going to change your homicide rate much at all, using @Milouse's number of 6.9 it would lower it to 6.6 per 100,000.
 
Denur
I see this is a rhetorical question, because to you only the latter will probably make sense. but I'd like to answer it anyway. I hope you realize that our European culture is very different from yours. We(*) have different mindsets, different values, a different take on what freedom is. To us freedom does not mean that everyone is allowed to carry a gun at all times. To us freedom means to live in a society where there is no need for such a thing. A society where the biggest danger we face in our daily lives, is to cross the street. But we do expect from our governments that they do their utmost best to protect us from harm, with the limited resources we grant them as voters and taxpayer. And we accept that that is not enough to protect us from all attacks. To us a society where everyone walks around with a gun, would feel like a prison. We would not feel free.

(*) Of course not all Europeans share these sentiments.
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Round of applaud for this comment, please. 👍

I would liken this to knife laws in the UK. We aren't allowed to carry knives because the laws state that a knife is a weapon and therefore a threat to human life. While anything can be a weapon technically knives have a long history of use for personal harm, unlike cars, which are dangerous but stringently regulated in UK and probably much of Europe.

In argument to the UK knife laws some have said that it's a case of guilty until proven innocent which contradicts liberties. Well every thug or thief caught with a blade would be spilling this excuse if we allowed this nonsensical view point to build UK knife laws on. There are circumstances in which tradespeople who need blades may be given some leeway but even then there will a full investigation.

I see guns in the same way. Being permitted to carry a gun for 'protection' is basically allowing citizens to show their distrust for each other by the idea that they would rather shoot than be shot. If nobody has the right to carry a gun in the first place (authorities not included) then the risk of being shot, and therefore needing a gun to return fire with dramatically drops. By all means take your guns to the range and use them at home, but taking a gun into public is, in my view, stupid and dangerous. Dangerously stupid. Yeah.

So back on topic, would it be safer if citizens were publicly armed in the event of another attack? Certainly not. I fear their would be even more death and injuries caused by suspicion and general grievances. That's like every world leader having their finger constantly hovering over that 'mutually assured destruction' button just because the other countries also have nukes. It just doesn't work that way, does it? Weapons are kept in the right place ready for the right time, if one could ever call time to use a nuclear warhead "right".
 
W3HS
I would liken this to knife laws in the UK. We aren't allowed to carry knives because the laws state that a knife is a weapon and therefore a threat to human life.
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Talk about a pretty dumb reason to ban guns, let alone knives. I say this because the pen I'm currently holding is equally a threat to human life.

That you just confirm that Europe is a place of dumb laws.

Any it look to me like Hollande stand to benefit from this tragedy as its a distraction from France poor economy and his very own unoopularity.
 
Denur
I see this is a rhetorical question, because to you only the latter will probably make sense. but I'd like to answer it anyway. I hope you realize that our European culture is very different from yours. We(*) have different mindsets, different values, a different take on what freedom is. To us freedom does not mean that everyone is allowed to carry a gun at all times. To us freedom means to live in a society where there is no need for such a thing. A society where the biggest danger we face in our daily lives, is to cross the street. But we do expect from our governments that they do their utmost best to protect us from harm, with the limited resources we grant them as voters and taxpayer. And we accept that that is not enough to protect us from all attacks. To us a society where everyone walks around with a gun, would feel like a prison. We would not feel free.

(*) Of course not all Europeans share these sentiments.
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Outstanding summation of European freedom. 👍
 
Denur
To us freedom means to live in a society where there is no need for such a thing...But we do expect from our governments that they do their utmost best to protect us from harm, with the limited resources we grant them as voters and taxpayer. And we accept that that is not enough to protect us from all attacks.
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For a long time we have come to love and enjoy our domestic freedoms and pleasures. I live in one of the most liberal, scenic and livable cities in world - Seattle. I fancy it must be like Paris, in that there is not the slightest need to carry a gun or knife.

But suddenly reality is no longer the same when the common citizen is a mass victim on the front lines of a war involving AK-47s, suicide vests, and hand grenades lobbed into crowded theaters, nightclubs and stadiums.

Sure, we are used to our leaders having their wars of choice far off in distant lands where failure means seemingly little to the ordinary citizen, safe back at home. But now its different.

And now you, media and government itself say we can expect more of the same slaughter and worse before things get better; that like you say, government cannot protect us from harm given the resources and taxes we grant them. But I say this is unacceptable. The citizenry, once alarmed over safety, will demand and get changes. Reluctantly, since even an armed citizenry cannot be safe from the dangers of grenades and car bombs, we are now forced to root out the enemy at his origin. And given their ideology, they may pop up again elsewhere.

Some combination of medieval religiosity, imperialistic presidents and prime ministers, and modern weapons have brought us to this ugly pass.
 
Dotini
But I say this is unacceptable.
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Unacceptable to you. Like I said, our cultures differ greatly. But I do expect that more money will now go to some European intelligence agencies, their military and police forces. For the time being.
 

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