Sinking boats in the Mediterranean.

[KSaiyu]

Define 'inactive'. I would say that it means people who aren't looking for work. This can be partially explained in the article:

Doesn't explain all the men hanging around all day in Southall using Khat. Nor the male gangs roaming Southall park.

And I'm sorry, but if you want to avoid an "ethnic penalty" whilst job hunting, prove to be a good candidate. The only Somali nurse I helped train turned into a quasi-patient for 2 weeks of her placement because she refused to drink even a sip of water during a 14 hour shift in the middle of Ramadan. If I'm an employer I'm going to discriminate because I want workers who show common sense.

That article does not say that Somali's arent trying, they are facing challenges due to differences in culture, but the way I read it, they are making advances, especially the 2nd generation.
Im not saying differences in culture are irrelevant, I am just saying that they should not be a barrier to immigration. I dont know how much you and the Finnish penguin have moved around, but I can tell you first hand that cultural differences don't have to be as extreme as nomadic Somali --> Londoner to make life a challenge.

I'm sorry, but Somalis have been fed, clothed, educated and been given a safe environment to call home in West London. They have been given heaven compared to the awful conditions from which they left. To blame their failure on "cultural differences" is lazy and offensive. Please explain why Ugandan Asians, fleeing persecution from Black Africans could integrate so well in comparison

 

[Joel]

I'm sorry, but Somalis have been fed, clothed, educated and been given a safe environment to call home in West London. They have been given heaven compared to the awful conditions from which they left. To blame their failure on "cultural differences" is lazy and offensive. Please explain why Ugandan Asians, fleeing persecution from Black Africans could integrate so well in comparison

You just dismissed the impact of culture, and then asked rhetorically why a very specific subculture with a very specific ethnic, economic, and political history has integrated into the UK. If you're not prepared to look at this stuff through the lens of culture then there's no answer anyone could give you besides a biological one. And I seriously hope you don't believe that Somali refugees are biologically inferior to Ugandan Asian refugees, although with what you posted yesterday I have my doubts.

Comparing Somali refugees to Ugandian Asians is apples and oranges. In one case you're talking about refugees from one of the most unsafe and volatile places on earth which has been a disaster for the past 2 decades, and in another you're talking about a small group of people who benefitted greatly from British intervention in Uganda. If you don't see the difference between refugees from Somalia and a group of people brought to Uganda by the British to work as tailors, accountants, government labourers, and in British government offices, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[KSaiyu]

Then, pray tell, what more can we do?

That you are perfectly happy to add more migrants from an "unsafe and volatile" region of the world on my doorstep (and yes, unlike 99% of the people here it will be my doorstep) speaks volumes about your concerns.

And I'm sure that the Ugandan Asians are most pleased with your borderline dismissal of their persecution. I guess you'll be calling the Tamils plight in Sri Lanka "not so bad". Or the Jews escaping the Holocaust as "not that hard done by".

Of course there's a role of culture, but you are in Britain now. The Sikhs, Hindus, Catholics and others from abroad have largely recognised that the host's culture should be assimilated to a degree. This is the price you pay for coming to one of the most developed nations in the world. It is what my mum, my dad and my neighbours to one side of me did. It is high time to stop making excuses for the Islamic contingent because frankly that mode of thinking is outdated.

 

[Carbonox]

Moving somewhat offtopic maybe, but I sure would like to hear if it's supposed to be some sort of coincidence that everywhere in the West, Somali immigration has been a failure. Minnesota included.

 

[KSaiyu]

And I would also ask you @Noob616 before you play the "understanding" card to show a little compassion for the women of Sweden.

And I sincerely hope you don't dismiss this as "Gatestone Institute right wing propaganda".

 

[Scaff]

And I would also ask you @Noob616 before you play the "understanding" card to show a little compassion for the women of Sweden.

And I sincerely hope you don't dismiss this as "Gatestone Institute right wing propaganda".

So because a topic is sensitive a source shouldn't be open to scrutiny? I sincerely hope you didn't expect to be taken serious for such a ridiculous request.

I take it you are aware of the difference in how Sweden report these numbers in comparison to the other countries on the list (because Gatestone ignore a very important one)?

Or that they linked to Swedish language versions of the reports rather than the English ones (despite the fact that they exist and the target audience for the article are English speakers)? Or that they failed to report the Swedish police and UN's concerns about cross country comparisons, for a very good reason that they and you failed utterly to mention (despite using both as sources)? Or that the main source it uses for the editorial content of the piece is a far right news outlet (with a good track record of anti-LGBT tirades for good measure)?

Why would that be?

Comparing Somali refugees to Ugandian Asians is apples and oranges. In one case you're talking about refugees from one of the most unsafe and volatile places on earth which has been a disaster for the past 2 decades, and in another you're talking about a small group of people who benefitted greatly from British intervention in Uganda. If you don't see the difference between refugees from Somalia and a group of people brought to Uganda by the British to work as tailors, accountants, government labourers, and in British government offices, then I don't know what to tell you.

He's also neglecting to mention (despite the fact its been covered many times before) that refugees and asylum seekers in the UK are not permitted to work by law, a law that was not in place when Ugandan Asian arrive back in the '70's (and many had originated from India and as such were anglo-indian and able to directly emigrate into the UK, I know because I know a number of families that arrived in the UK via this route - they were predominantly already British culturally).

 

[Joel]

Then, pray tell, what more can we do?

That you are perfectly happy to add more migrants from an "unsafe and volatile" region of the world on my doorstep (and yes, unlike 99% of the people here it will be my doorstep) speaks volumes about your concerns.

Perhaps we can start by not talking about a group of people as if they are biologically predisposed to crime. And I didn't say that the people are unsafe and volatile, I said the region is. You can't really go to college and learn a trade in Somalia when the whole country is a gongshow.

And I'm sure that the Ugandan Asians are most pleased with your borderline dismissal of their persecution. I guess you'll be calling the Tamils plight in Sri Lanka "not so bad". Or the Jews escaping the Holocaust as "not that hard done by".

No, that's not at all what I said at all. Did I at any point diminish the plight of Ugandan Asians? If that's what you read into it that's your own doing, all I said was that it's not as if there aren't culture differences between the two groups that make apples to apples comparisons dishonest. Ugandan Asians had ties to the British empire, were educated by and worked for the British empire, and were very wealthy before they were expelled from Uganda. It's not dismissing their persecution in Uganda to say people who greatly benefited from British colonialism would be able to more successfully live in Britain.

Of course there's a role of culture, but you are in Britain now. The Sikhs, Hindus, Catholics and others from abroad have largely recognised that the host's culture should be assimilated to a degree. This is the price you pay for coming to one of the most developed nations in the world. It is what my mum, my dad and my neighbours to one side of me did. It is high time to stop making excuses for the Islamic contingent because frankly that mode of thinking is outdated.

And that's what many Muslims I know personally who have family ties to Pakistan and Somalia have done as well. I don't disagree with this, that's what multiculturalism is, you are allowed to express your culture within a broader one as long as your remain within the law. If you think I support FGM or honour killings or think rape by anyone is excusable you're wrong.

And I would also ask you @Noob616 before you play the "understanding" card to show a little compassion for the women of Sweden.

And I sincerely hope you don't dismiss this as "Gatestone Institute right wing propaganda".

I have no idea what the Gatestone institute is. For one, a big part of Sweden having higher rates of rape and sexual assault is that it's taken seriously. Rape and sexual assault is severely underreported anywhere, and in Sweden it's taken much more seriously. Another factor completely unrelated to Somali refugees is that in 2005 the Swedish laws on rape and sexual assault were greatly widened. And since 2005, the rates have remained largely the same. In a lot of the world, rape isn't considered "real" rape unless it's a man violently forcing himself on a woman, whereas in Sweden the laws are much more broad. Similarly, the kidnapping rate in Canada is 12X higher than in Mexico (and I believe Canada and Australia are 1-2 in kidnapping rates). Do you honestly believe the genuine kidnapping rate in Canada and Australia is 12X that of Mexico?

And it's not a :censored:ing card. It is not some lefty loony hyper PC thing to suggest that people's culture and socioeconomic status impacts their upbringing and their success or that people are discriminated against based on race. It's not some absurd leftist BS that people respond better to compassion than "tough love".

 

[KSaiyu]

So because a topic is sensitive a source shouldn't be open to scrutiny? I sincerely hope you didn't expect to be taken serious for such a ridiculous request.

I take it you are aware of the difference in how Sweden report these numbers in comparison to the other countries on the list (because Gatestone ignore a very important one)?

Or that they linked to Swedish language versions of the reports rather than the English ones (despite the fact that they exist and the target audience for the article are English speakers)? Or that they failed to report the Swedish police and UN's concerns about cross country comparisons, for a very good reason that they and you failed utterly to mention (despite using both as sources)? Or that the main source it uses for the editorial content of the piece is a far right news outlet (with a good track record of anti-LGBT tirades for good measure)?

Why would that be?

Oh believe me, I'm very aware of the difference in reporting rape in Sweden. If you want to pin this on that flimsy excuse we can continue to investigate it deeper, but I'm afraid you'll find the revelations pretty unpleasant (think what happens when a Left institution encounters a rape epidemic that's caused by a minority group)

He's also neglecting to mention (despite the fact its been covered many times before) that refugees and asylum seekers in the UK are not permitted to work by law, a law that was not in place when Ugandan Asian arrive back in the '70's (and many had originated from India and as such were anglo-indian and able to directly emigrate into the UK, I know because I know a number of families that arrived in the UK via this route - they were predominantly already British culturally).

This is embarrassing now
What's the excuse for the Bangladeshis??

IT'S. THEIR. FAULT.

Accept it. Move on. Let's work the problem and stop making tired excuses.

-----

Before this continues, I have to ask.

Considering the evidence I've given regarding the two constituencies in Birmingham, Blackburn, Bradford West and Tower Hamlets, what do you say is the reason for such misconduct?

Perhaps we can start by not talking about a group of people as if they are biologically predisposed to crime. And I didn't say that the people are unsafe and volatile, I said the region is. You can't really go to college and learn a trade in Somalia when the whole country is a gongshow.

You can here. Doesn't explain their terrible record in education.

No, that's not at all what I said at all. Did I at any point diminish the plight of Ugandan Asians? If that's what you read into it that's your own doing, all I said was that it's not as if there aren't culture differences between the two groups that make apples to apples comparisons dishonest. Ugandan Asians had ties to the British empire, were educated by and worked for the British empire, and were very wealthy before they were expelled from Uganda. It's not dismissing their persecution in Uganda to say people who greatly benefited from British colonialism would be able to more successfully live in Britain.

Explain Tamils

And that's what many Muslims I know personally who have family ties to Pakistan and Somalia have done as well. I don't disagree with this, that's what multiculturalism is, you are allowed to express your culture within a broader one as long as your remain within the law. If you think I support FGM or honour killings or think rape by anyone is excusable you're wrong.

Canada =/= Britain

I have no idea what the Gatestone institute is. For one, a big part of Sweden having higher rates of rape and sexual assault is that it's taken seriously. Rape and sexual assault is severely underreported anywhere, and in Sweden it's taken much more seriously. Another factor completely unrelated to Somali refugees is that in 2005 the Swedish laws on rape and sexual assault were greatly widened. And since 2005, the rates have remained largely the same. In a lot of the world, rape isn't considered "real" rape unless it's a man violently forcing himself on a woman, whereas in Sweden the laws are much more broad. Similarly, the kidnapping rate in Canada is 12X higher than in Mexico (and I believe Canada and Australia are 1-2 in kidnapping rates). Do you honestly believe the genuine kidnapping rate in Canada and Australia is 12X that of Mexico?

And it's not a :censored:ing card. It is not some lefty loony hyper PC thing to suggest that people's culture and socioeconomic status impacts their upbringing and their success or that people are discriminated against based on race. It's not some absurd leftist BS that people respond better to compassion than "tough love".

Up to you and Scaff if you want to go into Sweden's rape numbers and its link to embracing multiculturalism/refugees.

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Scaff]

Oh believe me, I'm very aware of the difference in reporting rape in Sweden. If you want to pin this on that flimsy excuse we can continue to investigate it deeper, but I'm afraid you'll find the revelations pretty unpleasant (think what happens when a Left institution encounters a rape epidemic that's caused by a minority group)

Then explain it and explain why its a flimsy excuse.

This is embarrassing now
What's the excuse for the Bangladeshis??

IT'S. THEIR. FAULT.

Accept it. Move on. Let's work the problem and stop making tired excuses.

I'm only going to say this one more time, cut the attitude, you have had more than enough warnings in regard to it. I'm also a little tired of you simply not answering questions and simply resorting to you asking the same things that have already been answered and discussed before. Others are doing you the curtosy of answering your questions on a point by poiunt basis, how about you return the favour, as GT Planet is not your personal soap box (as has once again been explained in the past).

If you wish to disuss this, do it in the correct thread, oh wait we have already.

Before this continues, I have to ask.

Considering the evidence I've given regarding the two constituencies in Birmingham, Blackburn, Bradford West and Tower Hamlets, what do you say is the reason for such misconduct?

Ditto

 

[Joel]

You can here. Doesn't explain their terrible record in education.

This is absurd. As if adults can suddenly just go to college and pick right back up with people who've been as school since they were 4. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Explain Tamils

What about them? When did I bring them up? What do you want me to explain about them?

Canada =/= Britain

Well forgive me, if you told me it's "their" fault, and that "they" can't assimilate, and I've heard Somali immigration has been a "failure", one would assume that if there's something wrong with "them", it would be wrong with "them" over here too. Isn't that interesting. Our "incompatible" cultures appear to be compatible! Perhaps the snow subdues the fire in these ne'er do wells.

Up to you and Scaff if you want to go into Sweden's rape numbers and its link to embracing multiculturalism/refugees.

Does Canada's kidnapping rate have a link to its multiculturalism and embracing refugees? Do you believe that Sweden has become more multicultural or has accepted more refugees since 2005? If so, why in your opinion have the rape and sexual assault rates remained at 2005 levels despite more refugees coming to Sweden since then?

Take a look at your chart again. Look at the rates for the UAE and Indonesia. 0.9 and 0.7, lower than every western country on the chart by a massive degree. Isn't that interesting, two predominantly muslim countries with the lowest rates on the board. Perhaps the Sharia Law in the UAE is creating a society where women are free from sexual assault? What is it about western culture that leads to Americans raping at a 25X higher rate than in the UAE or Indonesia?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I didn't bring up Western intervention causing tribal politics carrying on in perpetuity, so don't blame me for arguing a point you don't want to accept.

When that point amounts to "people who haven't had the enlightenment that comes with Western contact will naturally regress to an uncivilised state", you're damn right I don't want to accept the argument.

 

[KSaiyu]

Got my work cut out. Here goes!

When that point amounts to "people who haven't had the enlightenment that comes with Western contact will naturally regress to an uncivilised state", you're damn right I don't want to accept the argument.

Your point that Western intervention keeps them in a tribal like mentality was disproved by my evidence.

You lose.

This is absurd. As if adults can suddenly just go to college and pick right back up with people who've been as school since they were 4. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

GCSE results. Talking about kids. "British-Somalis", born, bred, educated here.

What about them? When did I bring them up? What do you want me to explain about them?

Your explanation fails to account for them. They have known a culture of war and discrimination, much like Somalis yet integrate better in NW London.

Well forgive me, if you told me it's "their" fault, and that "they" can't assimilate, and I've heard Somali immigration has been a "failure", one would assume that if there's something wrong with "them", it would be wrong with "them" over here too. Isn't that interesting. Our "incompatible" cultures appear to be compatible! Perhaps the snow subdues the fire in these ne'er do wells.

Proof required rather than "I know a few people with links to Somalia".

Does Canada's kidnapping rate have a link to its multiculturalism and embracing refugees? Do you believe that Sweden has become more multicultural or has accepted more refugees since 2005? If so, why in your opinion have the rape and sexual assault rates remained at 2005 levels despite more refugees coming to Sweden since then?

Take a look at your chart again. Look at the rates for the UAE and Indonesia. 0.9 and 0.7, lower than every western country on the chart by a massive degree. Isn't that interesting, two predominantly muslim countries with the lowest rates on the board. Perhaps the Sharia Law in the UAE is creating a society where women are free from sexual assault? What is it about western culture that leads to Americans raping at a 25X higher rate than in the UAE or Indonesia?

Re-read that. Think about the reason. Research the different cultures then realise the monumental mistake you've made.

Then explain it and explain why its a flimsy excuse.

Sweden is gripped in a culture of political correctness analagous to Rotherham/Rochdale/you get the idea. We can go further down this road if you really want....

I'm only going to say this one more time, cut the attitude, you have had more than enough warnings in regard to it.

Having an attitude isn't against the AUP.

I'm also a little tired of you simply not answering questions and simply resorting to you asking the same things that have already been answered and discussed before. Others are doing you the curtosy of answering your questions on a point by poiunt basis, how about you return the favour, as GT Planet is not your personal soap box (as has once again been explained in the past).


If you wish to disuss this, do it in the correct thread, oh wait we have already.

You gave a reason that Ugandan Asians fared better was because of the time of their arrival. Bangladeshis arrived earlier. Your point is weak.

Ditto

Huh? Islam....duh

Your answer please.

 

[Scaff]

Sweden is gripped in a culture of political correctness analagous to Rotherham/Rochdale/you get the idea. We can go further down this road if you really want....

Nope.

Consider that your source might not be being totally honest with you.

Having an attitude isn't against the AUP.

The site owner disagrees "You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group." and it wasn't a point for debate.

You gave a reason that Ugandan Asians fared better was because of the time of their arrival. Bangladeshis arrived earlier. Your point is weak.

That was the only point I used was it? I think not.

Huh? Islam....duh

Your answer please.

If you wish to discuss this, do it in the correct thread, oh wait we have already.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You lose.

But I'm not a demagogue, so in reality, I win.

 

[KSaiyu]

Nope.

Consider that your source might not be being totally honest with you.

You're right. I'll believe the State that chooses instead to sentence a man who linked Islam to the rape epidemic in Sweden.

Actually no I won't. Because I'm not a Labour councillor up North.

And by the way, if anyone wants to argue that Somalis/Pakistanis etc find it hard to adapt to Western society and culture and that this is the reason for their failure in education and the workplace, you'll have to explain how they can suddenly embrace Western attitudes and laws with regards to women.

The site owner disagrees "You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group." and it wasn't a point for debate.

I've done none of those. How were my posts "abusive and/or hateful".

That was the only point I used was it? I think not.

So what's the other reason.

If you wish to discuss this, do it in the correct thread, oh wait we have already.

OK....but first what is your answer, because I'm not sure what thread to put it in since you haven't replied.

 

[Scaff]

You're right. I'll believe the State that chooses instead to sentence a man who linked Islam to the rape epidemic in Sweden.

Actually no I won't. Because I'm not a Labour councillor up North.

And by the way, if anyone wants to argue that Somalis/Pakistanis etc find it hard to adapt to Western society and culture and that this is the reason for their failure in education and the workplace, you'll have to explain how they can suddenly embrace Western attitudes and laws with regards to women.

Answer my question first, don't just resort to more 'don't know but look how bad it is'.

What factor massively distorts these results, you claimed to know, so what is it?

I've done none of those. How were my posts "abusive and/or hateful".

You don't get to make that distinction, but if you wnat to discuss it, then do so via PM.

So what's the other reason.

.....and many had originated from India and as such were anglo-indian and able to directly emigrate into the UK, I know because I know a number of families that arrived in the UK via this route - they were predominantly already British culturally.....

However once again off-topic, do not continue to drag this thread off topic.

OK....but first what is your answer, because I'm not sure what thread to put it in since you haven't replied.

In the correct thread, I don't intend saying this again. Do not continue to drag the thread off topic.

And as you don't seem to be getting this point I will remind you...

• You will, if asked by a representative of the forums, cease posting any content.

...its your choice at the end of the day, but do not be surprised if continuing to ignore this results in a warning.

 

[KSaiyu]

...its your choice at the end of the day, but do not be surprised if continuing to ignore this results in a warning.

OK I am going to need crystal clear instructions first before I can reply. Which thread do I put the question in? The Islam thread, UK election results thread, Britain thread, a new "Immigration" thread??

 

[Barra333]

Depends on which tangent you are referring to.

 

[Joel]

GCSE results. Talking about kids. "British-Somalis", born, bred, educated here.

I thought we were talking about refugees. I don't know the specifics of Somalis in Britain. I'll go out on a limb here and say that British-Somali children don't grow up in luxury.

Your explanation fails to account for them. They have known a culture of war and discrimination, much like Somalis yet integrate better in NW London.

As well as a long mercantile history, and a successful history pre-civil war. Part of the cause of the civil war in Sri Lanka was reaction to government policies meant to "correct" over representation of Tamil people in universities. Again, just like with Ugandan Asians it's not meant to downplay or minimize the atrocities, but it is different to talk about more or less educated people who were powerful within their societies and have more transferable skills, along with a more unified identity.

I found this study which talks about Tamil and Somali immigrants to Norway, and posits that the difference is one of "social capital" which I think is fairly reasonable. A historically caste based and mercantile culture among Tamil people is different than a historically open and less unified culture in Somalia. There isn't really a Somali culture or people in the same way there is a Tamil people. Another interesting idea brought up is Mecca's importance to Islam, if you're a Muslim and live far away from Mecca, it can cause a feeling of being unconnected to or on the periphery of the faith.

Proof required rather than "I know a few people with links to Somalia".

I guess I'll concede this because I don't really know how to prove that in a way you'd accept. Somali-Canadians face difficulties and challenges along with some very negative stereotyping and discrimination. There's still plenty of racism in Canada, and in my opinion Somali-Canadians have faced some of the worst of it.

Re-read that. Think about the reason. Research the different cultures then realise the monumental mistake you've made.

Did you think I was being serious? I'm being facetious about the idea that we can draw conclusions about people from those stats at face value. Clearly I don't actually believe Sharia Law in the UAE would lower rape rates, and it's nonsensical to believe that the UAE and Indonesia are genuinely safe havens of sexual violence. Asking rhetorically what about American culture leads to a rape rate 20X that of the UAE is obviously a monumental mistake. I don't know what to say if you think I actually believe Sharia Law is a good thing, or would lower rates of sexual violence.

That's the point. We've tried to explain that Sweden's high rape rates are misleading. We've tried to explain that Sweden has much broader rape laws than most other countries. We've tried to explain that Swedish views on rape and sexual violence encourage women to more frequently report and recognize when they have been abused. Reported rape and sexual assault crimes have risen in Sweden, while the percentage of people who respond in surveys saying they've been victims of sexual violence has remained mostly constant (between 0.7-0.9%). I've tried rhetorically making a clearly and utterly absurd claim using the same statistics to demonstrate how they lack context.

You won't have any of that though, you're convinced that immigration turned one of the most equitable places on earth for women into a "rape capital" and are sticking your fingers in your ears to blather on about Rotherham, "leftists" and immigrants.

 

[KSaiyu]

I thought we were talking about refugees. I don't know the specifics of Somalis in Britain. I'll go out on a limb here and say that British-Somali children don't grow up in luxury.

From article I quoted:

Education looks an unlikely escape route. Overcrowded houses mean children have nowhere to do their homework. In 2010-11 around 33% of Somali children got five good GCSEs, the exams taken at 16, compared with 59% of Bangladeshi pupils and 78% of Nigerian ones. Parents unable to speak English struggle. They see their children move up a year at school and assume they are doing well (in Somalia poor performers are held back). Their offspring, roped in as translators, are in no hurry to disabuse them.

As well as a long mercantile history, and a successful history pre-civil war. Part of the cause of the civil war in Sri Lanka was reaction to government policies meant to "correct" over representation of Tamil people in universities. Again, just like with Ugandan Asians it's not meant to downplay or minimize the atrocities, but it is different to talk about more or less educated people who were powerful within their societies and have more transferable skills, along with a more unified identity.

I found this study which talks about Tamil and Somali immigrants to Norway, and posits that the difference is one of "social capital" which I think is fairly reasonable. A historically caste based and mercantile culture among Tamil people is different than a historically open and less unified culture in Somalia. There isn't really a Somali culture or people in the same way there is a Tamil people. Another interesting idea brought up is Mecca's importance to Islam, if you're a Muslim and live far away from Mecca, it can cause a feeling of being unconnected to or on the periphery of the faith.

OK. That's a theory. What can we do about it.

id you think I was being serious? I'm being facetious about the idea that we can draw conclusions about people from those stats at face value. Clearly I don't actually believe Sharia Law in the UAE would lower rape rates, and it's nonsensical to believe that the UAE and Indonesia are genuinely safe havens of sexual violence. Asking rhetorically what about American culture leads to a rape rate 20X that of the UAE is obviously a monumental mistake. I don't know what to say if you think I actually believe Sharia Law is a good thing, or would lower rates of sexual violence.

That's the point. We've tried to explain that Sweden's high rape rates are misleading. We've tried to explain that Sweden has much broader rape laws than most other countries. We've tried to explain that Swedish views on rape and sexual violence encourage women to more frequently report and recognize when they have been abused. Reported rape and sexual assault crimes have risen in Sweden, while the percentage of people who respond in surveys saying they've been victims of sexual violence has remained mostly constant (between 0.7-0.9%). You won't have any of that though, you're convinced that immigrants turned one of the most equitable places on earth into a "rape capital".

It's a poor comparison to make.

Let's take one example from the article I quoted:

Since 2000, there has only been one research report on immigrant crime. It was done in 2006 by Ann-Christine Hjelm from Karlstads University.


It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants.

Do you see how your comparison of using rape statistics is inconsequential. Do you not think I'm aware that the differences in reporting rape would influence statistics? Can you not look beyond that line of defence?

Is it not time for Left leaning individuals to step back and look at the facts of multiculturalism, warts and all? Liberals believe that they care for everyone but it is rapidly emerging that some groups are getting an obscene amount of leeway, to the point that crime is being ignored.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Since 2000, there has only been one research report on immigrant crime. It was done in 2006 by Ann-Christine Hjelm from Karlstads University.

What if that article was wrong?

 

[KSaiyu]

What if that article was wrong?

I'm sorry I don't understand

 

[Barra333]

It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants.

Do you see how your comparison of using rape statistics is inconsequential. Do you not think I'm aware that the differences in reporting rape would influence statistics? Can you not look beyond that line of defence?

Foreign born? You know that includes everyone not born in Sweden, not just Somalis.

Also, why is OK for you to quote rape statistics, but not for @Noob616 to point out the weaknesses of the over (=broader definition) and under reporting of them, only for you to quote more rape statistics?

 

[KSaiyu]

Foreign born? You know that includes everyone not born in Sweden, not just Somalis.

Also, why is OK for you to quote rape statistics, but not for @Noob616 to point out the weaknesses of the over (=broader definition) and under reporting of them, only for you to quote more rape statistics?

Hmmm? What's that got to do with Somalis? You're confusing the points.

And it's OK for both of us to, but the use of it (how they are used to make a point) is completely fair game to attack.

In my chart, reporting tendencies add to the fact that Sweden's embracing of immigrants has led to an explosion in reported rape. You should also remember that I quoted a whole article, not just one chart.

Noob616 has drawn an absurd conclusion from his figures (which was in jest to try and prove you can't take put too much stock in comparing rape numbers country by country). It doesn't argue my point, which incidentally was only that he should feel sorry for the women in Sweden and that this conclusion was based on the article which is contains reports/statistics, along with a figure from the article given for emphasis.

 

[Joel]

OK. That's a theory. What can we do about it.

We could start by investigating why Somali refugees feel like they're on the periphery, and work on creating support networks.

It's a poor comparison to make.

All I did was look at the rates, mention Sharia Law, and say "hmmmmm". All you did was look at the rates, mention immigrants, and say "hmmmmm".

It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants.

OK, so you've found a correlation. Did this report control for income, education level, and socioeconomic status? Are rapes committed by ethnic Swedes investigated as thoroughly as those committed by those committed by other ethnicities? Is sentencing equal? Which ethnicities are included? Svea Hovratt is one specific appeals court in Stockholm. What percentage of rape cases go to appeals? Do we know if ethnic Swedes are as likely to use the appeals court? I'm not being deliberately obtuse, these are issues with any sort of statistics where the full data isn't known.

Do you see how your comparison of using rape statistics is inconsequential. Do you not think I'm aware that the differences in reporting rape would influence statistics? Can you not look beyond that line of defence?

You've called it a flimsy excuse so I don't know what you think about it to be honest. Are you aware of the requirement in Sweden of police to investigate and apply multiple charges to the same event? If a woman goes to the police about her husband raping her, and says "he has raped me every day for 6 months", each day can be entered statistically as an individual case. If one immigrant man rapes his wife 99 times, and one ethnic Swede rapes someone once, you could interpret those stats as saying 99% of rapists are immigrants.

Is it not time for Left leaning individuals to step back and look at the facts of multiculturalism, warts and all? Liberals believe that they care for everyone but it is rapidly emerging that some groups are getting an obscene amount of leeway, to the point that crime is being ignored.

This mindset is dangerous. You have not shown the "facts" of multiculturalism, nor do your cited "facts" say what you think they say. Even if they did, they would not justify your opinions. Even if you found an ironclad statistical cause and effect between immigrants from <X> and rape rates, it would not justify discriminating against people from <X>.

 

[KSaiyu]

We could start by investigating why Somali refugees feel like they're on the periphery, and work on creating support networks.

Crikey. You have zero experience working with large Somali communities do you

All I did was look at the rates, mention Sharia Law, and say "hmmmmm". All you did was look at the rates, mention immigrants, and say "hmmmmm".

Nope. Try again.

OK, so you've found a correlation. Did this report control for income, education level, and socioeconomic status? Are rapes committed by ethnic Swedes investigated as thoroughly as those committed by those committed by other ethnicities? Is sentencing equal? Which ethnicities are included? Svea Hovratt is one specific appeals court in Stockholm. What percentage of rape cases go to appeals? Do we know if ethnic Swedes are as likely to use the appeals court? I'm not being deliberately obtuse, these are issues with any sort of statistics where the full data isn't known.

The scary thing is I believe you don't feel you are being obtuse. I'd love to hear the excuses for Catholic priests raping choir boys. Oh wait, there won't be any

You've called it a flimsy excuse so I don't know what you think about it to be honest. Are you aware of the requirement in Sweden of police to investigate and apply multiple charges to the same event? If a woman goes to the police about her husband raping her, and says "he has raped me every day for 6 months", each day can be entered statistically as an individual case. If one immigrant man rapes his wife 99 times, and one ethnic Swede rapes someone once, you could interpret those stats as saying 99% of rapists are immigrants.

I am aware, hence why I've picked a statement from the article that has nothing to do with the chart. Stop focussing on the chart - that is an adjunct.

This mindset is dangerous. You have not shown the "facts" of multiculturalism, nor do your cited "facts" say what you think they say. Even if they did, they would not justify your opinions. Even if you found an ironclad statistical cause and effect between immigrants from <X> and rape rates, it would not justify discriminating against people from <X>.

I am starting to think your ideology is more dangerous than any (and I do mean any) religion. It is dangerous and immoral to continue ignoring facts that are staring you so blatantly in your face.

 

[Joel]

Nope. Try again.

Whatever. Apparently one contextless comparison of rape rates is different than another contextless comparison of rape rates. I dunno I guess I'm a brainwashed liberal so I'll defer to FACTS.

The scary thing is I believe you don't feel you are being obtuse. I'd love to hear the excuses for Catholic priests raping choir boys. Oh wait, there won't be any

Well no, for one I'm not excusing anyone of rape. And when Catholic priests rape choir boys...Catholic priests rape choir boys. That's it, there's no grey area there. When "85% of rape cases sentenced for over 2 years by one specific appeals court were committed by foreigners", there are all kinds of factors which are not isolated. That fact tells us very little on its own.

I am aware, hence why I've picked a statement from the article that has nothing to do with the chart. Stop focussing on the chart - that is an adjunct.

That wasn't about the chart, that was about how easily the stats which you're citing everywhere else can be misleading too.

I am starting to think your ideology is more dangerous than any (and I do mean any) religion. It is dangerous and immoral to continue ignoring facts that are staring you so blatantly in your face.

It is not wrong and it is not racist to say "people from X country do Y thing at Z% higher rates". It is racist to take this information, and say "We need to stop accepting people from X because they do Y", or to see someone from X and be afraid they'll do Y. my ideology! I think people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want unless they're encroaching on another's rights is more dangerous than religious leaders. DANGEROUS.

 

[KSaiyu]

Well no, for one I'm not excusing anyone of rape. And when Catholic priests rape choir boys...Catholic priests rape choir boys.

Very same paragraph...

When "85% of rape cases sentenced for over 2 years by one specific appeals court were committed by foreigners", there are all kinds of factors which are not isolated. That fact tells us very little on its own.

It is not wrong and it is not racist to say "people from X country do Y thing at Z% higher rates". It is racist to take this information, and say "We need to stop accepting people from X because they do Y", or to see someone from X and be afraid they'll do Y. my ideology! I think people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want unless they're encroaching on another's rights is more dangerous than religious leaders. DANGEROUS.

Coming across as giving undue leniency to minorities. Glad the British public saw through that nonsense.

 

[Joel]

Very same paragraph...

That's not excusing...Explaining is not excusing. Talking about the myriad of ways a statistic could be misleading is not excusing.

Coming across as giving undue leniency to minorities. Glad the British public saw through that nonsense.

I'm talking about individuals. It's not "facts" to judge individuals based on their race. I guess that makes me a granola hippy though, so I'll go back to the drum circle. Toodles.

 

[KSaiyu]

Stahp

I know your ideology means well, but it brings untold misery to a lot of people. Liberals who can't accept this fact need to do some serious reflection before they condemn others as "racist".