Sinking boats in the Mediterranean.

[Scaff]

The unfortunate truth is these problems would have occurred regardless of "our" intervention. The region has never evolved from a tribal culture.

A point some countries (such as the UK and the US) have done the utmost to ensure remained the status quo for a very long time.

Having tribal rivalries and a few 'friendly' dictatorships helped out quite well with stopping the Russian's gaining too much influence and too ensure the oil went our way.

When in the last 100 years has either a European country or the US not been influencing or intervening in the region?

 

[squadops]

I think the backlash from the Arab Spring is more than expected, especially when killing Gaddafi is thrown into the mix. The west gets what it wants but maybe too much has been bitten off this time.

 

[InSight]

Sweden should take all of them and I'll have my popcorn ready when this whole thing blows up into their liberal faces.

 

[F1jocker12]

Refugees and migrants in Libya face rape, torture and abduction by traffickers and smugglers, as well as systematic exploitation by their employers, religious persecution and other abuses by armed groups and criminal gangs, said Amnesty International in a new report today (11 May).

One eyewitness told Amnesty: "I know that [the smuggler] used three Eritrean women. He raped them and they were crying. It happened at least twice." Another woman from Nigeria described how she was gang-raped by 11 men from an armed gang as soon as she arrived in Sabha:

"They took us to a place outside the city in the desert, tied my husband's hands and legs to a pole and gang-raped me in front of his eyes. There were 11 men in total."

The international community has stood and watched as Libya has descended into chaos since the 2011 NATO military campaign ended, effectively allowing militias and armed groups to run amok.

"World leaders have a responsibility and must be prepared to face the consequences, which include greater levels of refugees and migrants fleeing conflict and rampant abuse in Libya. Asylum-seekers and migrants are among the most vulnerable people in Libya and their plight must not be ignored."

The world cannot continue to ignore its obligation to grant sanctuary to anyone fleeing such dreadful abuse.

from
Libya - Wave of Abductions, Torture and Gang Rape Is Driving Mediterranean Migrant Exodus - New Report

 

[KSaiyu]

What "might have been" (the saddest words ever penned) cannot be disentangled from the fact our interventions. At the Crusades, we were motivated by the spread of the true faith, more lately it has been mineral interests and the spread of neoliberal nostrums that have motivated our interventions. Though the Middle East has evolved from tribal cultures, when chaos and war erupt, and organized government breaks down, family (i.e., tribal) connections are often all that is left. I suspect the same would largely be true in Europe should catastrophe strike. However, as you say, in the Middle East, the tribal militia is a bedrock institution

Remember also that the Crusades were a retaliatory effort in the face of the spread of Islam into Europe.

A point some countries (such as the UK and the US) have done the utmost to ensure remained the status quo for a very long time.

Having tribal rivalries and a few 'friendly' dictatorships helped out quite well with stopping the Russian's gaining too much influence and too ensure the oil went our way.

When in the last 100 years has either a European country or the US not been influencing or intervening in the region?

We've been propping up dictators and having a hand in their downfall for decades in the region, no argument there.

This however doesn't explain why Pakistani tribal politics emerge in Bradford:

"The situation is further complicated by the influence of the Biraderi – the Pakistani kinship network with roots in Kashmir that has long dominated local and national politics in Bradford."

http://www.buzzfeed.com/husseinkesvani/naz-nhah-bradford-galloway-challenge

Or why Tower Hamlets enjoys Bangladeshi bloc voting:

"A disproportionate number of British electoral fraud cases have come from Tower Hamlets. This is because Tower Hamlets (where I used to live) is not an ordinary borough. It is a borough with a relatively large and well-establishing voting bloc consisting of people of Bangladeshi heritage. This bloc constitutes Britain's largest Muslim community (by head of local authority population); and, as the judge noted, it is both unusually conservative and unusually cohesive."

http://mediotutissimus.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/lutfur-rahman-and-strange-world-of.html

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The region has never evolved from a tribal culture.

Have you ever heard of the Hagia Sofia? It's that large church in the middle of Istanbul. And although it is a church these days, it was originally designed and built by Muslims. It contains an enormous free-standing dome, which doesn't require any internal support. In terms of mathematics and engineering, it was an extraordinary achievement. And it was built nine hundred years before the Christian kingdoms of western Europe were able to figure it out for themselves.

Tribal culture, indeed.

 

[KSaiyu]

Have you heard of the Armenian genocide.

Tribal culture, indeed.

EDIT: Wait hold on? The Hagia Sofia was built originally by Muslims then converted to a Church????

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Have you heard of the Armenian genocide.

Tribal culture, indeed.

Muslims don't have a monopoly on genocide.

 

[Dennisch]

The Hagia Sophia was build as a cathedral, then turned into a mosque, and is now a museum.

 

[Scaff]

Remember also that the Crusades were a retaliatory effort in the face of the spread of Islam into Europe.

Funnily enough historians don't agree that its that simple, after all the first crusade was over 200 years after what is now Spain was (partly) conquered and had more to do with retaking Jerusalem and stopping European knights from getting bored and killing each other.

We've been propping up dictators and having a hand in their downfall for decades in the region, no argument there.

And in doing so helped to perpetuate the problem you are complaining about.

This however doesn't explain why Pakistani tribal politics emerge in Bradford:

Which has what to do with refugees from North Africa?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Which has what to do with refugees from North Africa?

Nothing - this thread hasn't been about refugees in North Africa for a while now. It's little more than a thinly-veiled excuse for him to attack Islam and pretend that it's an intellectual discussion since he tried it in a variety of other threads but was denied the opportunity.

 

[KSaiyu]

Connect the dots guys, it's all there....

If we haven't had a hand in Pakistan + Bangladesh as we have in the Mid East, what is it that's causing tribal instincts to take over politics in isolated areas of a Western country.

I didn't bring up Western intervention causing tribal politics carrying on in perpetuity, so don't blame me for arguing a point you don't want to accept.

 

[Scaff]

Connect the dots guys, it's all there....

How about you do.

If we haven't had a hand in Pakistan + Bangladesh as we have in the Mid East, what is it that's causing tribal instincts to take over politics in isolated areas of a Western country.

A valid point for debate, however if your claim that its a direct link to Islam and nothing else we should be seeing this in every part of the country with a large Muslim population and also first separate out any socio-economic factors and/or other stresses that are caused locally.

I didn't bring up Western intervention causing tribal politics carrying on in perpetuity, so don't blame me for arguing a point you don't want to accept.

So western intervention has played no role in the current situation in the Middle East and North Africa?

 

[KSaiyu]

Of course it's played a role! It's not the defining role however, and certainly not an excuse to let thousands of immigrants from the region in!

This is sorting out constituencies by religion:

http://www.may2015.com/ideas/what-a...ewish-hindu-buddhist-and-sikh-constituencies/

Bradford West we know about.

Tower Hamlets we know about.

Birmingham Hodge Hill was where the Labour party rally had segregated seating (also the area of Trojan Horse)

Birmingham Hall East was where Salma Yaqoob, representing Palestine of all places managed over 12 thousand votes.

And now you're comparing the Gatestone Institute in another thread in comparable terms of extremity to George Galloway, a man whose election strategy consisted of belitteling a victim of forced marriage and rape.

 

[Scaff]

Of course it's played a role! It's not the defining role however, and certainly not an excuse to let thousands of immigrants from the region in!

When did they become immigrants?

This is sorting out constituencies by religion:

http://www.may2015.com/ideas/what-a...ewish-hindu-buddhist-and-sikh-constituencies/

Bradford West we know about.

Tower Hamlets we know about.

Birmingham Hodge Hill was where the Labour party rally had segregated seating (also the area of Trojan Horse)

Birmingham Hall East was where Salma Yaqoob, representing Palestine of all places managed over 12 thousand votes.

And the rest?

Oh and the last one, do you propose mandating what people can and can't vote for if you disagree with it (not that you can stand for Palestine in the UK - its not a ward)?

And now you're comparing the Gatestone Institute in another thread in comparable terms of extremity to George Galloway, a man whose election strategy consisted of belitteling a victim of forced marriage and rape.

Given some of the output of Gatestone and those that run it, I have no problem making the comparison, you're not having an issue sorting out the extreme and moderate on the right are you? I thought that was a clear delineation?

 

[KSaiyu]

And the rest?

Goodness, you asked for it. Forgive me for using wiki as a source but:

Blackburn

The council was shaken in 2004 when six Labour councillors quit the ruling group one month after an election and became independent representatives, and the council temporarily fell into no overall control.[2][3] The councillors, who eventually re-joined the party, left over an internal row reportedly sparked by the demotion of particular councillors in a post-election reshuffle.[2] Allegations of vote-rigging and corruption have dogged the council, with members of the Muslim community reportedly being "strong-armed by mosque leaders and councillors to vote Labour" during elections.[4] The possibility of corruption has been eased by reforms to postal voting which have made electoral fraud "childishly simple" in the UK according to a European watchdog.[5] The number of postal votes registered in Blackburn in 2005 was 20,000, compared to 7,600 in 2001.[4] In April 2005, local councillor Mohammed Hussain was jailed for three years for rigging the 2002 town hall election by stealing at least 230 postal vote ballots in his ward.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_with_Darwen

Complex socio-economic factors indeed.

EDIT: You do understand the refusal of Labour to face up to facts (NOT just Islam/immigration) is a big reason the election turned out the way it did....

 

[Barra333]

Yes, that shows leaders of a minority group influencing local politics in Blackburn. What does that have to do with boat people in the Mediterranean?

Back on topic:

1) I see no fairness of any sort when countries are being forced into it without consent.
2) So all EU countries are now responsible? I didn't know that.

1. Exactly. What did Turkey and Jordan do to deserve huge numbers of refugees from Syria? They have their own problems to deal with, but they aren't turning people away like the richer EU countries.
2. For a minute, lets forget why this all started. If the EU want to see themselves as prosperous and powerful, then the responsibility for looking after those less fortunate comes with it. The severity of the situation the refugees are fleeing from is obvious because a) they would not pay €10,000 to get on an overcrowded boat with a 50:50 chance of sinking and b) People are fleeing to Iran and Afghanistan, places which are still warzone if they weren't better options than staying where they are.
There are at least a dozen Western European countries who could and should be helping out more, but just don't want to. I think I was most disgusted by David Cameron a week or two ago saying they will help the situation by supplying a navy ship, on the condition that they dump anyone they rescue in Italy.

 

[KSaiyu]

1. They are neighbours (you'll forgive me if my heart doesn't bleed for Turkey)
2. There is no responsibility.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I'll come across as pretty brash when it comes to this because I live in an area with one of the largest populations of the largest refugee group in Britain so will have pretty strong views

 

[Carbonox]

On another note, I'm quite pleased to hear there are numerous countries (Finland included - I can see the Finns Party managed to create an effect on the government's decisions already ) opposing the new "CEAS" contract... Not surprised to notice a bunch of Mediterranean countries and Sweden, the haven of world-huggers and asylum seekers alike, are in favor of it though...

By the way, CEAS would increase Finland's yearly asylum seeker influx by 500%... not exactly a pleasant number, especially when, as I said earlier, there's absolutely no guarantee of them returning home anytime soon.

 

[Barra333]

So you are both happy tp take the NIMBY stance on refugees, with the alternative that innocent people who have and want nothing to do with the fighting stay home and die. Remember, they only want to leave because the alternative is likely death. Give them a choice and the war would leave, not them.

@KSaiyu - so you hold a strong grudge against Turkey for something a previous regime did 100 years ago? I pity any Germans who cross your path. While we are at it, lets hate on the Australians, Americans and Canadians for what they did to indigenous populations. Oh, lets not forget British colonialism.

 

[KSaiyu]

@KSaiyu - so you hold a strong grudge against Turkey for something a previous regime did 100 years ago? I pity any Germans who cross your path. While we are at it, lets hate on the Australians, Americans and Canadians for what they did to indigenous populations. Oh, lets not forget British colonialism.

Germany apologised. Turkey refuses to acknowledge its past, and still engages in discrimination. If you want to be their cheerleader go right ahead, just be aware of the history.

 

[Scaff]

Goodness, you asked for it. Forgive me for using wiki as a source but:

Blackburn

The council was shaken in 2004 when six Labour councillors quit the ruling group one month after an election and became independent representatives, and the council temporarily fell into no overall control.[2][3] The councillors, who eventually re-joined the party, left over an internal row reportedly sparked by the demotion of particular councillors in a post-election reshuffle.[2] Allegations of vote-rigging and corruption have dogged the council, with members of the Muslim community reportedly being "strong-armed by mosque leaders and councillors to vote Labour" during elections.[4] The possibility of corruption has been eased by reforms to postal voting which have made electoral fraud "childishly simple" in the UK according to a European watchdog.[5] The number of postal votes registered in Blackburn in 2005 was 20,000, compared to 7,600 in 2001.[4] In April 2005, local councillor Mohammed Hussain was jailed for three years for rigging the 2002 town hall election by stealing at least 230 postal vote ballots in his ward.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_with_Darwen

Complex socio-economic factors indeed.

Ahh so corruption only happens on the left / Islam. OK got it now.

Still has nothing to do with this topic.

EDIT: You do understand the refusal of Labour to face up to facts (NOT just Islam/immigration) is a big reason the election turned out the way it did....

Wrong thread, but thanks for your opinion on the topic.

 

[KSaiyu]

Wait what, you asked for the other constituencies..

I'm not the one who dragged this OT, I just debated the point that we don't have a responsibility to take "victims of Western intervention".

 

[Carbonox]

So you are both happy tp take the NIMBY stance on refugees, with the alternative that innocent people who have and want nothing to do with the fighting stay home and die. Remember, they only want to leave because the alternative is likely death. Give them a choice and the war would leave, not them.

Don't put words or opinions in my mouth, please.

As I've said before (or at least I hope so), I advocate a system where all possible refugees in the world are placed in safe countries whose culture is as close to theirs as possible, to maximize integration. Compared to Western Europe, the crisis hotspots in northern Africa and Middle East are like the other side of the coin. The cultural compatibility is so poor that places like Iran are indeed preferable.

 

[Scaff]

Wait what, you asked for the other constituencies..

I'm not the one who dragged this OT, I just debated the point that we don't have a responsibility to take "victims of Western intervention".

I disagree, and do believe that we do have to take responsibility for "victims of Western intervention".

As I've said before (or at least I hope so), I advocate a system where all possible refugees in the world are placed in safe countries whose culture is as close to theirs as possible, to maximize integration. Compared to Western Europe, the crisis hotspots in northern Africa and Middle East are like the other side of the coin. The cultural compatibility is so poor that places like Iran are indeed preferable.

And when they are full and broke?

 

[Barra333]

Germany apologised. Turkey refuses to acknowledge its past, and still engages in discrimination. If you want to be their cheerleader go right ahead, just be aware of the history.

Im not cheerleading anyone, just stating that you can't pick on one country for their past and not acknowledge that there are others.

Don't put words or opinions in my mouth, please.

As I've said before (or at least I hope so), I advocate a system where all possible refugees in the world are placed in safe countries whose culture is as close to theirs as possible, to maximize integration. Compared to Western Europe, the crisis hotspots in northern Africa and Middle East are like the other side of the coin. The cultural compatibility is so poor that places like Iran are indeed preferable.

I was merely stating my interpretation what you said, I didn't put your name in quote tags around it. There is a difference.

For the rest of your post: Oh dear. I hope I am not too far from the mark on the culture, but I hope Finland took the lions share of anyone who wanted out of Ukraine and Russia last year. Should the UK take the 10 million Dutch who will be homeless if the dykes fail tomorrow? Can you point us to some safe, culturally appropriate places for Syrian refugees to go? Keeping in mind that Iran, Egypt, Jordan etc are dealing with enough problems and refugees already, and Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE only have the infrastructure to accept a certain number.

On the topic of difference in culture, that is the worst reason I can think of to not take in refugees. You do realise that the availablity of Indian food and Chinese food in your home town is a direct result of people moving to a country with a vastly different culture to their own? I wont even go into the foods that may have originated from the refugee hotspots we are talking about here.
It is called multiculturalism, and is a good thing. The vast majority of refugees make a huge effort to integrate and participate in the society they move to. Yes, they spend a lot of time hanging out with their own nationals, but it is a support/comfort mechanism more than anything.

 

[KSaiyu]

Im not cheerleading anyone, just stating that you can't pick on one country for their past and not acknowledge that there are others.
I was merely stating my interpretation what you said, I didn't put your name in quote tags around it. There is a difference.

Germany outlaws Holocaust denial. Turkey vilifies those who call their genocide of Armenians a genocide.

That is why I pick on them.

It is called multiculturalism, and is a good thing. The vast majority of refugees make a huge effort to integrate and participate in the society they move to. Yes, they spend a lot of time hanging out with their own nationals, but it is a support/comfort mechanism more than anything.

Where's the proof of this please.

I would like to know the reason for this article and statistics contained within:

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...her-immigrants-what-holds-them-back-road-long

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm now realizing that there are thousands of UK refugees living here in Portugal (they escape the cloudy weather or so I hear). But ... for crying out loud, we're a catholic country, what's with all the protestant heretics around here anyway?!?! And they do like to hang out within their own community, integration isn't easy, cultural differences and all that! We should send them to Finland, There's litle to no sun most of the year up North, but that's not our probolem to begin with!!!!

 

[Barra333]

Where's the proof of this please.

I would like to know the reason for this article and statistics contained within:

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...her-immigrants-what-holds-them-back-road-long

Define 'inactive'. I would say that it means people who aren't looking for work. This can be partially explained in the article:

Just one in ten is in full-time work. Many Somali households are headed by women who came to Britain without their husbands.

there is also this:

Even discounting such factors as religion, age and experience, compared with other black Africans in Britain, Somalis face an “ethnic penalty” when job-hunting.

That article does not say that Somali's arent trying, they are facing challenges due to differences in culture, but the way I read it, they are making advances, especially the 2nd generation.
Im not saying differences in culture are irrelevant, I am just saying that they should not be a barrier to immigration. I dont know how much you and the Finnish penguin have moved around, but I can tell you first hand that cultural differences don't have to be as extreme as nomadic Somali --> Londoner to make life a challenge.

 

[Carbonox]

For the rest of your post: Oh dear. I hope I am not too far from the mark on the culture, but I hope Finland took the lions share of anyone who wanted out of Ukraine and Russia last year. Should the UK take the 10 million Dutch who will be homeless if the dykes fail tomorrow? Can you point us to some safe, culturally appropriate places for Syrian refugees to go? Keeping in mind that Iran, Egypt, Jordan etc are dealing with enough problems and refugees already, and Qatar, Bahrain and the UAE only have the infrastructure to accept a certain number.

How so? I'm pretty certain the other, nearby Eastern European countries are a lot closer to Ukraine (or Russia) culturally, not to mention it'd be overly difficult for someone with no knowledge of Finnish language to ever properly settle here... Yeah, thinking of it, language, culture and religion are about the three most important factors one should consider when choosing the country to move into...

Other places for Syrian refugees? Some sizeable countries with majority Muslim populations (see, this way we avoid religious clashes) include Algeria, Sudan, Turkey, Kazakhstan, Pakistan or Indonesia...

On the topic of difference in culture, that is the worst reason I can think of to not take in refugees. You do realise that the availablity of Indian food and Chinese food in your home town is a direct result of people moving to a country with a vastly different culture to their own? I wont even go into the foods that may have originated from the refugee hotspots we are talking about here.

Is the availability of diverse food absolutely necessary for society to thrive? I'm also rather sure we weren't talking about legit immigrants from India or China, but illegals from dangerous, war-torn parts of the world who are in no way guaranteed to be well-meaning fellows themselves, especially when their identities and travel papers have "mysteriously disappeared" over and over again...

It is called multiculturalism, and is a good thing. The vast majority of refugees make a huge effort to integrate and participate in the society they move to.

Citation needed

Yes, they spend a lot of time hanging out with their own nationals, but it is a support/comfort mechanism more than anything.

Must be a nice "support/comfort mechanism" for the women living under the iron fist of their patriarchal communities even within the borders of the allegedly safe countries of Sweden or the UK. There's something wrong if certain immigrant communities don't intend to take any lessons from the West, but rather continue life as it was in the 'old country', with oppression of the weak included.