advanR
(Banned)
- 1,389
I just recently attended Skip Barbers 3-day formula driving school at Daytona's 24-hour course. I will try and give you an idea of the experience I had at the school. When I was researching racing schools I could not find very many sources for information or reviews, let alone school comparisons. I did find a few reviews in magazines, but I didnt find them to be very helpful.
The course I took was during bike week in Daytona. There was a superbike race (not sure what class) during the first day of the school because it had been bumped back to Monday after being rained out on Sunday. It was pretty neat because for the first day we were up in the press box for the classroom sessions and got to see part of some of the races. The bikes were going probably 180 in the banking, they mustve been just feet from eachother they were so close. You could really see the use drafting was to the riders.
Anyways, about the school.
The cars we raced were 1100lb formula dodges powered by a 2.0 liter neon engine claimed to put out 135hp. Let me tell you, these cars were quick. I donot have much experience driving quick cars, so for the first session in them, there was a wide smile on my face. I quickly got used to the forces though, now I only would like to drive a faster car, haha.
Before I attended the course I picked up Carl Lopez's book "Going Faster". This is a very good book about racing technique and theory. The school curriculum is based on this text. I had read a few chapters and learned enough to basically already know everything being taught in the classroom. IMO, for a $3000 class the book should be required reading, to maximize track time.
The first day, after some classroom time, we got to get familiar with the cars on an autocross course. All in first gear, this was very fun. First went up to about 60mph, but it was a tight course and there was water sprayed down on some parts. We got to slide the car around a bit without fear of hitting anything but cones. This exercise taught us to drive smoothly, and like I said before, we could get familiar making the tires squeel under braking, acceleration and cornering.
Starting on Day 2 we finally got to run the 24-hour course. One thing about the track is that in a lap you spend probably over half the time in the banking. This becomes tedious when you are trying to get as many chances at taking the corners as possible. Basically, when you are limited to 2 days on track, you do not want to spend the majority of your time on part of the track that does not develop an skill (it especially pisses you off when you have to abide by a 5k rpm rev limit. The motor goes up to 6800.) They had first said we would get more lap time than students at any of the other tracks, but on the last day of the school I still yearned for more laps. Just like in GT I am slow to work up my speed in corners, so perhaps it was just me. This was the first Skip 3-day school ever to use the 24-hour Daytona course, so maybe they will do something to change this in the future.
After the lead follow sessions (following instructors in the neon), we were let loose. I have to say that driving the car at first seemed surreal. I had very good feel for driving it that as funny as it sounds I think I developed playing GT. Im sure some of you GT nerds that have never raced before would like to get an idea of how you would do if you jumped into a race car. I can say with a bit of confidence that if you have mastered GT you will do much better than someone who has no experience at all. Tell your parents (if you have them, or shall I say, are living with them) that your hours playing GT have not been a complete waste.
I have come to the conclusion that there are two main differences between GT3 and life. Load transfer and how grip is affected (also varying track grip), and braking.
In these cars you better not dare lifting the throttle mid corner. In real life the consequences would be more pronounced. In a race car the throttle and brake are used more as weight transfer tools. Front and rear grip can be dramatically affected based on where the load is. For some cars in GT3 this can also be present, but for most cars, and even these, lifting mid corner will not cause dramatic oversteer that may not be catchable.
And of course braking. In GT3 all of the cars have ABS. These cars did not. We did have a braking exercise where they tried to get us familiar with using the full braking potential of the cars without locking up the tires, but it is not easily learned. It was also a bit retarded that we did this exercise at the corner with least grip. When the 3-days were over, the main thing I needed work with was still getting more out of my braking, and then entering a couple corners with more speed.
During the 2 days on the track, we got constant feedback from the instructors that were positioned at different corners. We would stop the cars at a stopbox and listen to what they had to say on a two-way radio. I did not find much of their feedback helpful. Most of the time if I made a mistake I was aware of exactly what I had done. Them telling me on the radio without giving me a chance to respond just made me more frusterated. It wasnt until the third day that I had become good friends with one of the instructors that I started recieving the feedback I was looking for. Basically I checked which corner he would drive out to for each session and afterwards we would talk for a minute.
The school was no doubt fun, but I found myself almost basically paying for the mechanics and cars for those 3 days. I didnt find too much of the instruction useful, and I didnt make a connectoin with one of the guys and recieved some good feedback until the last day.
A few other complaints I had:
-The whole class was divided into two groups. Two drivers to a car. So we had a possible maximum seat time of 50% of the time (bad sentence, I know).
-The revlimit was gradually increased over the 2 days on track. This was certainly a good idea to get the drivers used to the cars safely. But we did not eventually get to the point where we had no revlimit. I think the eventual maximum was 4800 on the infield, and 5000 on the banks. The reason for this is that drivers have no damage liability in this course. Once you go into the classes where there is a $3900 maximum, they let you do whatever you want to them, but until them they want to keep the likelyhood of a crash down.
-The passing was weak. On the last day they introduced us to passing, and allowed it in certain areas. The "race start" exercise we did on the last day allowed passing, but the thing was the passing had to occur in the straight, which was only one straight, because it didnt continue on to different corners. Basically whoever stunk at shifting or messed up would get passed. No passing under braking was allowed, and we didnt have the chance to use superior corner exit speed to our advantage over other drivers. When this ended we went back to lapping. We could now pass other cars, but only if they waive us by on some of the straights, or if you are shown the blue flag. No fun
. This was again because of damage liability Im sure.
I guess I will have to wait until I attend the 2-day advanced course for some of these things to be lifted.
I attended the skip school because it coincided with my break off of school and I have an uncle down in Daytona that lives like 3 miles from the track. I will probably attend the 2-day advanced course with Skip also, because I want to get familiar with the RT/2000 cars (will possibly participate in a regional race or two), and again the location is much more conveniant than some other schools. Road America, where I think I will attend the next school is probably an 8-hour drive away in Wisconsin.
A competing racing school I would probably attend if it were in a more convenient place would be Jim Russel's racing school, at Sears Point in Sonoma, Cali. It looks like they have been around longer, and address a few of the complaints I had about Skips school. They claim you recieve much more track time. I think there is unlimited passing. One thing I would love is that they document all of your lap times for you so you can see in front of your eyes as they improve over the 3 days.
A few other cool things about the school. One of the students was the stunt coordinator from F&F2, among other movies, commercials, etc. He was a really cool guy and was telling a lot of stories he had about the stunt business. You know, all of the beautiful cars they have wrecked and things like that. He was constantly making fun of the "rice burners" in F&F2, so he wasnt like that at all. He had said there will be more muscle cars in part 2. That should be interesting. I also got his business card, so if I ever find myself as a starving racer I could call him up for some freelance work to raise racing money. One thing he said is that most stunt drivers dont know **** about the physics and technical aspects of driving and are just ego driven.
I dont want to sound hotheaded, but out of 10 students I think I was 3rd or 4th quickest. The only 2 or 3 drivers quicker than me were older and more experienced. Because this class was in the south, 2 of them have been racing stock cars for quite some time. The other has had superbike riding experience. I think why they were faster is that they could flirt with the limit of the cars with more confidence earlier in the 3-day course than me. The third guy was driving more aggressively during the first day of track time, but he had numerous spins. Anyway, that made me feel pretty good. I have absolutely no racing experience at all. Not even AutoXing.
I am not good at writing my experiences, so if you have any questions about the school, of course just ask. I should be able to answer anything.
The course I took was during bike week in Daytona. There was a superbike race (not sure what class) during the first day of the school because it had been bumped back to Monday after being rained out on Sunday. It was pretty neat because for the first day we were up in the press box for the classroom sessions and got to see part of some of the races. The bikes were going probably 180 in the banking, they mustve been just feet from eachother they were so close. You could really see the use drafting was to the riders.
Anyways, about the school.
The cars we raced were 1100lb formula dodges powered by a 2.0 liter neon engine claimed to put out 135hp. Let me tell you, these cars were quick. I donot have much experience driving quick cars, so for the first session in them, there was a wide smile on my face. I quickly got used to the forces though, now I only would like to drive a faster car, haha.
Before I attended the course I picked up Carl Lopez's book "Going Faster". This is a very good book about racing technique and theory. The school curriculum is based on this text. I had read a few chapters and learned enough to basically already know everything being taught in the classroom. IMO, for a $3000 class the book should be required reading, to maximize track time.
The first day, after some classroom time, we got to get familiar with the cars on an autocross course. All in first gear, this was very fun. First went up to about 60mph, but it was a tight course and there was water sprayed down on some parts. We got to slide the car around a bit without fear of hitting anything but cones. This exercise taught us to drive smoothly, and like I said before, we could get familiar making the tires squeel under braking, acceleration and cornering.
Starting on Day 2 we finally got to run the 24-hour course. One thing about the track is that in a lap you spend probably over half the time in the banking. This becomes tedious when you are trying to get as many chances at taking the corners as possible. Basically, when you are limited to 2 days on track, you do not want to spend the majority of your time on part of the track that does not develop an skill (it especially pisses you off when you have to abide by a 5k rpm rev limit. The motor goes up to 6800.) They had first said we would get more lap time than students at any of the other tracks, but on the last day of the school I still yearned for more laps. Just like in GT I am slow to work up my speed in corners, so perhaps it was just me. This was the first Skip 3-day school ever to use the 24-hour Daytona course, so maybe they will do something to change this in the future.
After the lead follow sessions (following instructors in the neon), we were let loose. I have to say that driving the car at first seemed surreal. I had very good feel for driving it that as funny as it sounds I think I developed playing GT. Im sure some of you GT nerds that have never raced before would like to get an idea of how you would do if you jumped into a race car. I can say with a bit of confidence that if you have mastered GT you will do much better than someone who has no experience at all. Tell your parents (if you have them, or shall I say, are living with them) that your hours playing GT have not been a complete waste.
I have come to the conclusion that there are two main differences between GT3 and life. Load transfer and how grip is affected (also varying track grip), and braking.
In these cars you better not dare lifting the throttle mid corner. In real life the consequences would be more pronounced. In a race car the throttle and brake are used more as weight transfer tools. Front and rear grip can be dramatically affected based on where the load is. For some cars in GT3 this can also be present, but for most cars, and even these, lifting mid corner will not cause dramatic oversteer that may not be catchable.
And of course braking. In GT3 all of the cars have ABS. These cars did not. We did have a braking exercise where they tried to get us familiar with using the full braking potential of the cars without locking up the tires, but it is not easily learned. It was also a bit retarded that we did this exercise at the corner with least grip. When the 3-days were over, the main thing I needed work with was still getting more out of my braking, and then entering a couple corners with more speed.
During the 2 days on the track, we got constant feedback from the instructors that were positioned at different corners. We would stop the cars at a stopbox and listen to what they had to say on a two-way radio. I did not find much of their feedback helpful. Most of the time if I made a mistake I was aware of exactly what I had done. Them telling me on the radio without giving me a chance to respond just made me more frusterated. It wasnt until the third day that I had become good friends with one of the instructors that I started recieving the feedback I was looking for. Basically I checked which corner he would drive out to for each session and afterwards we would talk for a minute.
The school was no doubt fun, but I found myself almost basically paying for the mechanics and cars for those 3 days. I didnt find too much of the instruction useful, and I didnt make a connectoin with one of the guys and recieved some good feedback until the last day.
A few other complaints I had:
-The whole class was divided into two groups. Two drivers to a car. So we had a possible maximum seat time of 50% of the time (bad sentence, I know).
-The revlimit was gradually increased over the 2 days on track. This was certainly a good idea to get the drivers used to the cars safely. But we did not eventually get to the point where we had no revlimit. I think the eventual maximum was 4800 on the infield, and 5000 on the banks. The reason for this is that drivers have no damage liability in this course. Once you go into the classes where there is a $3900 maximum, they let you do whatever you want to them, but until them they want to keep the likelyhood of a crash down.
-The passing was weak. On the last day they introduced us to passing, and allowed it in certain areas. The "race start" exercise we did on the last day allowed passing, but the thing was the passing had to occur in the straight, which was only one straight, because it didnt continue on to different corners. Basically whoever stunk at shifting or messed up would get passed. No passing under braking was allowed, and we didnt have the chance to use superior corner exit speed to our advantage over other drivers. When this ended we went back to lapping. We could now pass other cars, but only if they waive us by on some of the straights, or if you are shown the blue flag. No fun
. This was again because of damage liability Im sure.I guess I will have to wait until I attend the 2-day advanced course for some of these things to be lifted.
I attended the skip school because it coincided with my break off of school and I have an uncle down in Daytona that lives like 3 miles from the track. I will probably attend the 2-day advanced course with Skip also, because I want to get familiar with the RT/2000 cars (will possibly participate in a regional race or two), and again the location is much more conveniant than some other schools. Road America, where I think I will attend the next school is probably an 8-hour drive away in Wisconsin.
A competing racing school I would probably attend if it were in a more convenient place would be Jim Russel's racing school, at Sears Point in Sonoma, Cali. It looks like they have been around longer, and address a few of the complaints I had about Skips school. They claim you recieve much more track time. I think there is unlimited passing. One thing I would love is that they document all of your lap times for you so you can see in front of your eyes as they improve over the 3 days.
A few other cool things about the school. One of the students was the stunt coordinator from F&F2, among other movies, commercials, etc. He was a really cool guy and was telling a lot of stories he had about the stunt business. You know, all of the beautiful cars they have wrecked and things like that. He was constantly making fun of the "rice burners" in F&F2, so he wasnt like that at all. He had said there will be more muscle cars in part 2. That should be interesting. I also got his business card, so if I ever find myself as a starving racer I could call him up for some freelance work to raise racing money. One thing he said is that most stunt drivers dont know **** about the physics and technical aspects of driving and are just ego driven.
I dont want to sound hotheaded, but out of 10 students I think I was 3rd or 4th quickest. The only 2 or 3 drivers quicker than me were older and more experienced. Because this class was in the south, 2 of them have been racing stock cars for quite some time. The other has had superbike riding experience. I think why they were faster is that they could flirt with the limit of the cars with more confidence earlier in the 3-day course than me. The third guy was driving more aggressively during the first day of track time, but he had numerous spins. Anyway, that made me feel pretty good. I have absolutely no racing experience at all. Not even AutoXing.
I am not good at writing my experiences, so if you have any questions about the school, of course just ask. I should be able to answer anything.
.
