So 1.06 didn`t bring option to save game in mid-championship or endurance?

[HKS racer]

Seriously, why are people against a save option (hence the word option) and what achievement exactly?
If you're going to drive 24 hours nonstop yourself, alone, you've got bigger problems than worrying about how others are "cheating".
For plenty here it might be a nice social event when you've got some mates who are also up for it and into it, for many more (me included as my mates aren't that interested in GT5, or cars, or videogames....) this isn't an option so the only achievement is leaving your PS3 on for days on end, wow that's indeed making you seem like a virtual Tom Kristensen, Jacky Ickx or Derek Bell.....

In fact even driving 24 hours yourself with a save option is unrealistic as it's not even allowed in real endurance races whereby there's a minimum of 3 drivers, that's why B-spec made a lot of sense in GT4 whereby Bob took over for a few hours (and now it doesn't with it being a completely separate game mode....).
I can see a save-option being perhaps more technically difficult to implement than it may seem but integrating B-spec drivers like it was possible to do in GT4 would make it a much more sensible pursuit.
Optional ofcourse, you should be allowed to drive it nonstop if you choose (although I wonder whether this would be a "conscious" choice...) or leave your PS3 on if you really like the humming sound it makes....hardcore indeed.

Quote quote quote and...quote
Save option is a must. Period. Poliphony Digital FAIL to give bspec drivers a sense, If they can't be used together with aspec endurances, well, they are completely useless Mr. Yamauchi Tamagochi.

 

[grog]

So whats to stop people from exploiting this feature if its added.

Run and endurance race or championship and save on the last lap/race, backup, reload, profit over and over.

This feature will never happen, face it. If it somehow did, it would be expoited to the umpteenth degree.

Long championships a super easy to cope with (for me), its the endurance races that need to be broken up in seperate stints, maybe like GT4 did using B-spec Bob for alternate stints.

Thats the only realistic solution I see.

 

[SeaNorris]

That would go with the exploit to duplicate cars that they have not fixed and the birthday glitch that they have not fixed. It's a game. If someone exploits it for virtual credits, who cares. No different than the grind fest that usually happens. So just because of the risk of exploit then everyone should be punished? Best lock the savegames again then. You could exploit the old GT save games so it's no different. It's a game and everyone pays their money to do what they want, if they back up and reload for money does it affect my game? No, I don't care.

 

[grog]

That would go with the exploit to duplicate cars that they have not fixed and the birthday glitch that they have not fixed. It's a game. If someone exploits it for virtual credits, who cares. No different than the grind fest that usually happens. So just because of the risk of exploit then everyone should be punished? Best lock the savegames again then. You could exploit the old GT save games so it's no different. It's a game and everyone pays their money to do what they want, if they back up and reload for money does it affect my game? No, I don't care.

I dont care either, But this IS the reason it will never happen simple as that. plus this exploit would likely be of a much much larger scale.

 

[SeaNorris]

Why would it to be a much larger scale? You can already back up before you spend 20 million CR, buy said car, back up, you still have 20 mil. Unless the endurance races payout that much then why will it be larger? All the money is used for cars and tuning anyway, while the XP might be an exploit why should you have to do Le Mans 24hrs Endurance race more than once to unlock the Nurburgring one. I'd exploit it if that was the case, it's a joke.

 

[grog]

Well you answered the question yourself, XP would be flowing like wine.

I know you dont mind expliots and I dont, but we aren't in charge, The actual people who are making these updates/desicions probably dont agree with us.

 

[Caliper]

how could you exploit xp with a mid race save??

just allow the save game added to the main save and lock the game with a promp to continue the endurance event or quit it once you return to the game.

 

[Devedander]

So whats to stop people from exploiting this feature if its added.

Run and endurance race or championship and save on the last lap/race, backup, reload, profit over and over.

This feature will never happen, face it. If it somehow did, it would be expoited to the umpteenth degree.

Long championships a super easy to cope with (for me), its the endurance races that need to be broken up in seperate stints, maybe like GT4 did using B-spec Bob for alternate stints.

Thats the only realistic solution I see.

First off what does it matter? I don't see you getting all up in arms with people who strap rubber bands to their controllers overnight...

Second you do realize it's entirely possible to have the save game be one time use or removed at the end of the race right before payouts right?

If that was the only realistic solution you could see, I am afraid you didn't look very far.

And I thoroughly don't understand the logic of leaving out a great feature because it might get abused... it only affects the person abusing it... so it's basically cutting off your nose to spit your face...

as I have said multiple times it does effect me if saving the game removes the achievment of finishing an endurance race. just as alowing people to finish a marathon over the course of 100 days would destroy the achievment of running a marathon.

Do you feel the inclusion of a 30 lives code in Contra made beating the game without using the code any less of an achievement?

I personally feel it makes it MORE of an achievement because you not only did it, but you did it while avoiding temptation hanging right in your face.

BTW have you ever heard of the endless set in rockband?

 

[Audio-of-Being]

Man oh man, so much drama over a simple feature.

Here's the rundown as I see it: The people who want a save feature in endurance have legitimate reasons for not wanting/not being able to have their PS3 on for 24-who knows how many hours.(Family usage of the systems, power bill, inability to be home for more than X amount of hours at a time...)

We all live different lives, and we all have different priorities. To say that PD shouldn't make the game more accessible to us and that it's our fault we can't do select races in the game because of our situations is flat out ignorant. There's a select group of people here who need to get off their high horses, grow up and realize that.

Plus, who cares what people do with the feature? I mean honestly, what effect does it have on your life and on how you play the game? I know: None! You can throw all the analogies you want into the situation(running a marathon? Really?), but it doesn't change the fact that it will have no-I repeat:NO-bearing on how you play the game because you've already made up, in your mind, how you want to play the game.

So again: You need to get off your high horses. We don't care that you've put in/are going to put in the entire 4/9/24 hours to do the endurance races(without pausing, too, don't forget!), and we don't care what you think is the "proper way" to play this game. We really don't. We only care that we have families to support, jobs to go to, bills to pay, obligations to tend to and when we have time to ourselves, we want to slowly but surely make progress in this game we bought.

 

[prymet1me]

As long as you can pause races it not an endurance on you....only the PS3. So to all the posts about no saving in the race get a big laugh out loud. Its just silly.

 

[AKFox]

I miss handing it over to bspec so I could fall asleep while it's running. You can't even do that now. I can assume pausing is also cheating on a 24 hour race according to your rules?

I thought a realistic idea is to either allow checkpoints or bring back the feature that lets you use a bob. And in real 24h standards you technically drive 8 hours of it and hand it off to two other drivers. Because soloing an entire 24 hour race is just an insane idea in general.

 

[Destinkeys]

This is utterly insane. It's obvious the ONLY people arguing for no save are people that have never WATCHED a 24hr in their lives... Or a 12hr, or a 10hr...

The analogy isn't with a 26 mile marathon. ONE person CAN do that in one go. The analogy is with running the length or breadth of an entire CONTINENT in one go, without sleeping. Something no-one can do.

Pretty much ALL racing disciplines nowadays restrict drivers to 4-6hr stints. With usually at least 4hrs off. You want REALISM in this game, that's what you HAVE to do. You want arcade? Go buy Mario Kart.

There's a REASON that drivers were restricted to shorter stints. They all pretty much involved spectators dying horribly, from sleep-deprived drivers crashing into them. You really want to simulate that?

In a perfect world, you could do the 24hr in 4hr shifts, with an up to 12hr rest period allowed (game would look at XMB clock to calculate at shutdown) to simulate the rest period from up to three other drivers, and you could not start any other race until the endurance was finished. Do we live in a perfect world? Only if PD make it happen.

You want to do the 24hr with a couple of friends and do it in one go? OK, but ONLY if the 'pause' button is deactivated... and the X1 banned! Give a special 'Team 24' Trophy to those that do it that way. But at least return some SANITY to endurance racing. Kaz actually DID the Nürbergring 24. He sure as HELL didn't drive it straight through! Why does he have this utter disconnect between what he likes to do IRL and what he makes his game make US do? He is completely schizophrenic, as far as I am concerned!

 

[analog]

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would say that spending our sunday evening debating on a video game forum is hardly a healthy passtime. I doubt that either of us choose to live our life based on what other people would consider "healthy" or "normal" passtimes.

Perhaps you could explain to me how cutting a race up into "bite sized chunks" is an endurance race?

People dont seem to be able to grasp the concept that an endurance race is supposed to be an endurance. If it isn't an endurance then it isn't an "endurance" race now is it?

Cut an endurance race up into "bite sized chunks" and I don't know what you would choose to call it but the one thing it most certainly is not is an Endurance race.

you questioned what achievment completing a 24 hour race is? How is that not you saying that completing a 24 hour race is not an achievment? You also said that anybody that would complete a 24 hr race has some big problems. A cheap insult to people who want to race a race the way the game intended them to.

No it is not the same achievment. You said yourself that you want the ability to break the race up into "bite sized chunks" at which point whatever it is that you have it is no longer an endurance race since there is no endurance involved.

If you break a marathin up into "bite sized chunks" it is not a marathon. If you break a endurance race up into "bite sized chunks" it is not an endurance race.

Why do you actually care if I choose to save somewhere midway since I'm going to drive it alone especially when you mention what's written below....

I'm at lvl 34 and cant do the 24 hour races until I am at lvl 35. When I do unlock them I will be throwing a endurance party with 4 friends to see if we can get the Le mans race finished. beer, pizza, movies, (timed to take in a soccer game in the morning so long as I get 35 unlocked in time) and taking it in shifts to race. Maybe we get it finished maybe we dont. I plan to have fun finding out.

Is that OK with you?

See? All very nice and a proper way to experience an endurance race no doubt but for many this simply isn't an option so a save option or B-spec drivers taking a few stints would make a lot of sense.
If there's a save option I still have to drive more miles myself than you doing it with your friends, so don't talk about achievement.
That's what I meant with bite size chunks, to me it doesn't feel very reassuring to leave my fat PS3 on for days on end and I have to pay my electricity bill myself too.

For all I care if you entered an endurance race and saved it after driving a few hours and you started GT5 again the next day you are only able to continue that event making it indeed an endurance.
Or whatever, it's a virtual endurance race replicated in a videogame, driving it solo for 24 hours like I intend to do some day isn't realistic in the first place when a real endurance racedriver only takes stints every few hours after sleeping and only drives a third of the mileage PD expects me to do.
So therefor a save option (or B-spec) is highly desired, I'll be completing it in bite size chunks no matter what (meaning as it is now too).

Although I'm probably preaching to the converted anyway since your logic escapes me completely, especially since you're not even planning to drive 24 hours yourself solo, making complaining about a possible feature that would make "life" a lot more easier for most rather odd since it doesn't affect you in the first place.

 

[Destinkeys]

The trick is to make those 'bite sized chunks' REAL WORLD 'bite size chunks'.

Minimum 4hr seat time, maximum break 12hrs, no other races in between. That's how it happens IRL.

I don't see how any 'purist' could object to that.

 

[DaveS1138]

Why do you actually care if I choose to save somewhere midway since I'm going to drive it alone especially when you mention what's written below....

I wouldn't care how you personally choose to play the game if the only thing it effected was your game. What I care about is if PD make a change to everybodys game that devalues the achievment of running a 24 hour race by allowing people to run the race in "bite sized chunks" that means it is no longer an endurance race.

Answer me this..... What is the difference between running a 20 lap race every day for 10 days and running a 200 lap race in one day.

In the first case you have taken part in 10 races..... you have NOT run an endurance race. In the second case you have run an endurance race. I have not run a marathon if I run 1/4 mile a day for 104 days. I have only run a marathon if I run 26 miles in 1 day.

If you do not want to race for 24 hours then why the hell is it so important for you to take part in a 24 hour race? How is it that nobody has been able to answer that question?

See? All very nice and a proper way to experience an endurance race no doubt but for many this simply isn't an option so a save option or B-spec drivers taking a few stints would make a lot of sense.
If there's a save option I still have to drive more miles myself than you doing it with your friends, so don't talk about achievement.
That's what I meant with bite size chunks, to me it doesn't feel very reassuring to leave my fat PS3 on for days on end and I have to pay my electricity bill myself too.

For all I care if you entered an endurance race and saved it after driving a few hours and you started GT5 again the next day you are only able to continue that event making it indeed an endurance.
Or whatever, it's a virtual endurance race replicated in a videogame, driving it solo for 24 hours like I intend to do some day isn't realistic in the first place when a real endurance racedriver only takes stints every few hours after sleeping and only drives a third of the mileage PD expects me to do.
So therefor a save option (or B-spec) is highly desired, I'll be completing it in bite size chunks no matter what (meaning as it is now too).

Although I'm probably preaching to the converted anyway since your logic escapes me completely, especially since you're not even planning to drive 24 hours yourself solo, making complaining about a possible feature that would make "life" a lot more easier for most rather odd since it doesn't affect you in the first place.

Again if all you want to do is race for a couple of hours then why not just enter the endurance races that only last for a couple of hours. Why do you want to run a 24 hour race but then not race for 24 hours. Everything you can experience in a 24 hour race is available in other parts of the game.....the only difference is the length of the race and thats the one thing you say you dont want to have to do.

It makes no sense what so ever to argue that the game must be changed so you can run a 24 hour race in 2-3 hour chunks when instead you could just run 2-3 hour endurance races.

You dont want to race for 24 hours so why are you so adamant that you want to take part in a 24 hour race? Is it just so you can get 100% completion in the game? So you can have that achievment?

 

[Destinkeys]

Dave, have you ever WATCHED a 24hr race? Have you EVER seen anyone do it in one go..?

NO, YOU HAVEN'T.

How many times does this fact have to be brought up before you acknowledge it?

 

[DaveS1138]

Dave, have you ever WATCHED a 24hr race? Have you EVER seen anyone do it in one go..?

NO, YOU HAVEN'T.

How many times does this fact have to be brought up before you acknowledge it?

Can you show me where you addressed this specifically to me before. I must have missed that.

I'm talking about the achievment of completing a 24 hour race within gran turismo 5, not the achievment of completing a 24 hour race in a real world race. Sorry if I hadn't made that point clear but I thought it was kind of a given since I was making the point on a gran turismo 5 forum and not a real world racing forum.

 

[Destinkeys]

So anything not addressed specifically at YOU is deliberately ignored?

This is GT5... supposedly the Ultimate Driving Simulator. Not the Ultimate Sleep Depriver.

With a pause in the game (you used that?), there is no difference between a save and a pause, other than the inconvenience of it. I guess, you want to be as pedantic as possible, you need to start a thread decrying the use of the Pause button completely. I haven't come across it yet, though.

Tell me, hand on your heart, that you have NEVER, ever ONCE used the pause button (for any game, if it matters in this one).

YOU CAN'T.

BTW, how much do those NASA diapers cost? Because if you have ever done a 24hr in one sitting, you would need them.

 

[danben7]

Maybe they simply... don't want to put it in!!?!?! It's an endurance race FFS, what's the point of an endurance race if you can save, piss off and come back later. It's not an endurance race anymore, it's just playing the same track over and over.

 

[dixonbaps]

FWIW "24 Hours of Le Mans" on the Dreamcast console has/had a save option every time you entered the pit on the full 24h race, which is raced in real time. If it can be done on there then I'm sure it is quite possible on GT5.

Shouldn't take too much time to work it all out at PD headquarters. All the info needed for the race save (positions, time etc.) are available when the game is paused so it should be quite easy to save mid-endurance.

 

[ScariestGariest]

It woulden't be a simulator anymore with saves would it?

Exactly.

Remember a few years ago when Schumacher paused the US Grand Prix so he could go make another hot pocket? Me either.

It's a game. Everyone paid for it. Some of those people didn't have to steal money from moms purse to do so and those that didn't probably have a job and life to tend to.

I accomplish plenty in real life, I don't need to stand on a podium in my imaginary world and scream "I did this in 24 straight hours with no stops". Anyone that needs that sense of accomplishment probably doesn't know what the sun looks like anymore.

 

[analog]

I wouldn't care how you personally choose to play the game if the only thing it effected was your game. What I care about is if PD make a change to everybodys game that devalues the achievment of running a 24 hour race by allowing people to run the race in "bite sized chunks" that means it is no longer an endurance race.

Answer me this..... What is the difference between running a 20 lap race every day for 10 days and running a 200 lap race in one day.

In the first case you have taken part in 10 races..... you have NOT run an endurance race. In the second case you have run an endurance race. I have not run a marathon if I run 1/4 mile a day for 104 days. I have only run a marathon if I run 26 miles in 1 day.

If you do not want to race for 24 hours then why the hell is it so important for you to take part in a 24 hour race? How is it that nobody has been able to answer that question?

Again if all you want to do is race for a couple of hours then why not just enter the endurance races that only last for a couple of hours. Why do you want to run a 24 hour race but then not race for 24 hours. Everything you can experience in a 24 hour race is available in other parts of the game.....the only difference is the length of the race and thats the one thing you say you dont want to have to do.

It makes no sense what so ever to argue that the game must be changed so you can run a 24 hour race in 2-3 hour chunks when instead you could just run 2-3 hour endurance races.

You dont want to race for 24 hours so why are you so adamant that you want to take part in a 24 hour race? Is it just so you can get 100% completion in the game? So you can have that achievment?

Again complete balderdash, so what if I only wanted to do them for 100% game completion?
So what if I choose to indeed treat them as multiple races spread out over multiple days?
That's my choice and it still is possible to drive them nonstop with a bunch of friends so it doesn't affect you at all, maybe you'd like a special trophy to show off you did it the proper way?

Devalues the achievement? Oh come on, a lot of things possible in GT5 devalue any achievement if people choose to use it, a save option is only there to turn off the hardware foremost.
I've completed a few endurance races already and actually enjoyed spending 4 hours driving around Tsukuba in an MX-5 (yes I did that one almost nonstop with the occasional sanitary break) so yes I do enjoy endurance races, driving them solo however for 24 hours is humanly impossible (unless you're bonkers) so my PS3 has to stay on for days without any purpose other than the lack of a save function in the software it's running.
That's what I meant initially with that not being an achievement.

I hereby state this will be my final reaction to your uncomprehensible logic regarding this issue, I won't even try to persuade you to consider common sense as that's energy wasted better spend elsewhere I'm afraid.

 

[DaveS1138]

So anything not addressed specifically at YOU is deliberately ignored?

No. I respond to plenty of things in these threads. However if your going to ask why I haven't addressed a specific point that you have made then at least do me the common courtesy of actually addressing the point to me first.

There are plenty of points that people have chosen to skip over in this debate. One that I have kept asking for example is why are people so adamant that the game should be changed so they can take part in a 24 hour race when the one thing they all agree on is that they under no circumstances want to race for 24 hours. However I'm not going to start throwing a fit if you havent addressed that point since I dont think I have asked you directly.

I also tend to ignore people who simply choose to throw cheap insults around instead of having an honest and open debate listening to each others points. Just FYI.

I hereby state this will be my final reaction to your uncomprehensible logic regarding this issue, I won't even try to persuade you to consider common sense as that's energy wasted better spend elsewhere I'm afraid.

a pitty since you had been one of the people prepared to debate in a reasoned way only seldom resorting to cheap insult. Thank you at least for the debate you were prepared to have.

 

[CarreraGT]

I'm talking about the achievment of completing a 24 hour race within gran turismo 5, not the achievment of completing a 24 hour race in a real world race. Sorry if I hadn't made that point clear but I thought it was kind of a given since I was making the point on a gran turismo 5 forum and not a real world racing forum.

Honestly, your argument is pointless. If you don't want to save it, nobody is forcing you to. But GT5 is a game for 🤬 sake and 99% of us won't touch a 24 hour race if you have to do it in one sitting.

I don't know about you but I have better things to do with my life than sit in front of a video game for an entire day...

 

[DaveS1138]

I don't know about you but I have better things to do with my life than sit in front of a video game for an entire day...

Then don't do it. Seems like a nice easy answer that will keep everybody happy huh?

 

[ScariestGariest]

Most people have a life, family, and a job. The fact that save is not there discourages 90% of people from running a marathon because they don't want to waste time running the race.

Surely this is the only reason why we want saves in it? I mean, someone explain to me how save will harm those that do the marathon without pausing? If I was the marathon organizers I would try to make the race attractive to as many people as possible, not discouraging them from racing.

a little spot the difference for you

You know the marathon analogy is a pretty poor one. Mainly because you are placing a REAL sport where people make REAL achievements right next to some stupid thing you can do while wiping cheeto dust on your couch.

I get it, you are better than everyone at a video game. Good for you. But you know, I spent almost a year training for a half ironman and I'm betting you didn't spend that much time training to run your 24 video game "endurance" race.

If you don't have the skill / patience to deal with the fact that a product created for the masses has features that you don't want to use then maybe it's you that don't deserve to use it.

 

[Devedander]

The trick is to make those 'bite sized chunks' REAL WORLD 'bite size chunks'.

Minimum 4hr seat time, maximum break 12hrs, no other races in between. That's how it happens IRL.

I don't see how any 'purist' could object to that.

IRL Race car drivers don't have to contend with day jobs, spouses, children, responsibilities etc as we do while gaming. Certainly if I was making a living doing a 24 hour race as a real race driver does, I would be happy to schedule and prioritize around it, but as it is I don't get paid like the drivers do IRL so I don't see why we bring IRL into this to that extent...

In general I think we need to stop leaning on IRL as a reason for why things should be a certain way because it's a totally pick and choose logic... people choose to apply it where it suites them but must overlook the numerous ways in which the game isn't congruent with RL

In the first case you have taken part in 10 races..... you have NOT run an endurance race. In the second case you have run an endurance race. I have not run a marathon if I run 1/4 mile a day for 104 days. I have only run a marathon if I run 26 miles in 1 day.

What if you just pause the timer on the marathon every now and then for a few hours/days as long as you never swap to running anything else? Is that still a marathon? If not we need to get rid of pause...

What if you decide to stop and restart the marathon from scratch whenever you feel like it? If that's not ok we need to make sure your PS3 only allows you to join a 24 hour enduro on a set schedule and if you miss it, tough luck for a few weeks/months.

I know you can always choose to run 26 miles when you feel like it, but it's not the same as running the real Boston marathon is it? I mean, where you run the 26 miles defines the level of accomplishment that comes with running that distance right?

If you do not want to race for 24 hours then why the hell is it so important for you to take part in a 24 hour race? How is it that nobody has been able to answer that question?

I don't want to do a lot of things involved with racing... I don't want to hire a pit crew, get individual licenses, ride in a bus all over the world, have my car trucked over to me etc... I want to enjoy all the good parts and eliminate or modify the parts that don't fit in with my life to best suit me while still engaging in as much of the experience as I reasonably can.

As for why specifically a 24 hour race, for one part because that's part of finishing the game (that's like asking why do you want to beat a water level on mario if you so hate water levels?) and two because even in it's odd bastardized way (where the game assumes one driver does the whole 24 hour race) it still offers a level of strategy not found in racing a bunch of 10 lap races. You can fall much further behind or get much further ahead in a 24 hour race than you can in shorter races and still catch up. You can and may have to modify your pit and driving strategy to extremes to match demands made by such a long race. It is and can be a very unique event even broken into pieces.

And I remind you again, it in no way diminishes the value of completing the challenge to anyone who does complete them... just like the 30 lives code does not diminish the impressiveness of beating contra with only 3 lives. Something I have brought up many times around here and which no one has addressed.

 

[Destinkeys]

No. I respond to plenty of things in these threads. However if your going to ask why I haven't addressed a specific point that you have made then at least do me the common courtesy of actually addressing the point to me first.

I was referring to points I (and many others) had made several times ON THIS THREAD. That you STILL continue to ignore. Maybe you didn't read them. Go back a few pages.

You didn't answer my questions... Have you EVER used a pause button on a game?

And what diapers did you use for the 24hr Endurance..?

Personally, I am willing to bet that you did it with an X1, got so far in front of the pack and went to bed.

Tell me I'm wrong. 💡

 

[CarreraGT]

Then don't do it. Seems like a nice easy answer that will keep everybody happy huh?

Yet another pointless post... That would not keep people happy, which brings us back to the point of this thread.

^ Devedander's post explains it pretty well. The beauty of a game is that it allows you to enjoy racing without all the baggage.

I would much rather be racing for real, but I don't have the money, the time, or the resources to do it, so I play Gran Turismo to simulate the experience. I (like most people) may not be prepared to sit through a single race for 24 hours, but I would still get a lot of satisfaction out of completing it in 5 or 6 sittings.

It would be such an easy thing to implement and if you don't want to use it, as you say, don't use it. Seems like a nice easy answer that will keep everybody happy huh?

 

[Destinkeys]

I kind of sit halfway between Devander and Dave on this issue. Yes, I agree that having a 24hr race implies something different than a bunch of short sprints. But no, I am completely against having to do it in one sitting, no pause or anything.

Both seem to miss the point completely.

There MUST be some sort of half ground. Or why have the Endurance in the first place..? Points and cr.?

TBH, my most EXTREME position on it is that you need a minimum 4 hours on, and maximum 12 hours off in between four hour stints. That, IMO would be the best compromise between the extremists. But, given that even THAT might be tough for some, a savable race but NO MORE RACES until complete might be about the minimum that would not make the idea of the race a mockery.

The fact that NEITHER side likes my ideas makes me think I might be onto the right path...