So, about that course creator.

[Griffith500]

It wasn't, it's the product of a few logical inferences.

The CM system in general needs to be able to produce basically any physically feasible track layout in order to deal with the GPS function. Presumably there will be basic limits on elevation, corner radius and things like the track crossing over itself, but you get the idea. The CM needs to be reasonably compatible with a very wide range of track layouts.

Given that the system has to be capable of doing this from GPS data, the logical thing would be to allow the player full access to "manually" create any track that the GPS function could create. I'm well aware that PD doesn't always do things logically, but I see no reason why the manual CM mode would be limited any more than the GPS mode. It may well end up being, but I think it's a fair assumption that they're both capable of the same things, given that they're essentially different input modes of the same underlying system. (Please Polyphony, do not build TWO course makers where one would do.)

Honestly, I expect there will be limitations. I don't think you'll be able to recreate Suzuka or Top Gear TT with their crossovers. I don't think you'll be able to recreate say, Cape Ring with it's loop and ludicrous jump. I seriously doubt you'll be able to make VRally 2 style super launch ramps. I seriously hope we can't do Trackmania style hypertracks. But anything that you might find on a public road should be fair game*.

And if you can do it with GPS, then you should absolutely be able to do it manually. Frankly, if you can't do it manually then people will force it. If you've ever played any of the GPS augmented reality games like Ingress, then you'll know that you can spoof your GPS sensor in your phone. If Polyphony has a GPS app I suspect I could spoof my way into a track around Antarctica right now, although it might be pretty time consuming depending on which tools work and which don't. If stuff like this works, then it's a piece of cake.

Polyphony may end up limiting the functionality of the manual editor, but I think that they'd be fools to do so. The idea of it being a free editor is a great one, although I admit to also liking the idea of having set environments to build around as well. Total freedom is great, but building within limitations can be fun too. I just don't see why they wouldn't provide the total freedom option when the software has to be capable of it anyway (given what they've told us so far).


*Although as usual, the caveat of logical interpretations and expectations not applying to Polyphony Digital is in full force.

There is a big difference between translating numbers captured one way into numbers stored another way via direct machine interpretation and creating a usable interface that players can interact with in the game that then indirectly creates said numbers.

The only way to ensure they are equivalent is to have players directly manipulate the numbers (graphically or otherwise) in the native representation, and that representation then must be equivalent to the GPS data captured. That generally is a bit fiddly, especially if it's meant to be used with a DS3, and it's usually preferred to have an interface that is easy to use, with only high-level controls.

So the break down here is one's faulty understanding leading to false expectations.



I was fully expecting people to modify the data in some way, and already had plans to do this myself - that's what I was calling "externally modified data" and is clearly not an in-game feature.

Mock locations are potentially a great way to get around any import limitation that PD might impose (via a specific app, say), but there's no guarantee that that app won't filter the data in some way so as not to violate any geometric rules etc.



So really there are two possibilities:

PD tailors its data format to easy player-interaction in a GUI (should one be made available) and the GPS import will be constrained by that format (filtered and interpreted).

PD tailors its data format to the accurate representation of GPS data for faithful reproduction in-game and the easy-to-use GUI (should one be made available) will be limited in comparison to that import function.


Only in the second case will mock locations / manual editing of GPS data be of any benefit.

 

[interpunct]

It wasn't, it's the product of a few logical inferences.

The CM system in general needs to be able to produce basically any physically feasible track layout in order to deal with the GPS function. Presumably there will be basic limits on elevation, corner radius and things like the track crossing over itself, but you get the idea. The CM needs to be reasonably compatible with a very wide range of track layouts.

Given that the system has to be capable of doing this from GPS data, the logical thing would be to allow the player full access to "manually" create any track that the GPS function could create. I'm well aware that PD doesn't always do things logically, but I see no reason why the manual CM mode would be limited any more than the GPS mode. It may well end up being, but I think it's a fair assumption that they're both capable of the same things, given that they're essentially different input modes of the same underlying system. (Please Polyphony, do not build TWO course makers where one would do.)

Honestly, I expect there will be limitations. I don't think you'll be able to recreate Suzuka or Top Gear TT with their crossovers. I don't think you'll be able to recreate say, Cape Ring with it's loop and ludicrous jump. I seriously doubt you'll be able to make VRally 2 style super launch ramps. I seriously hope we can't do Trackmania style hypertracks. But anything that you might find on a public road should be fair game*.

And if you can do it with GPS, then you should absolutely be able to do it manually. Frankly, if you can't do it manually then people will force it. If you've ever played any of the GPS augmented reality games like Ingress, then you'll know that you can spoof your GPS sensor in your phone. If Polyphony has a GPS app I suspect I could spoof my way into a track around Antarctica right now, although it might be pretty time consuming depending on which tools work and which don't. If stuff like this works, then it's a piece of cake.

Polyphony may end up limiting the functionality of the manual editor, but I think that they'd be fools to do so. The idea of it being a free editor is a great one, although I admit to also liking the idea of having set environments to build around as well. Total freedom is great, but building within limitations can be fun too. I just don't see why they wouldn't provide the total freedom option when the software has to be capable of it anyway (given what they've told us so far).


*Although as usual, the caveat of logical interpretations and expectations not applying to Polyphony Digital is in full force.

I don't see why having top gear test track type of courses would be impossible. As long as the checkpoint system in place isn't bugged to all hell I think it'll be fine.

Also is there any reason as to why you are against trackmania style tracks? I mean if you don't like em don't download them. But it would hurt the cm if you were to limit the course creator like that.

I'm not saying we need loop de loops and the like but having the ability to make pretty slanted bends and turns and big ramps would be good for rally tracks for example. It would add a lot of variety imo to a lacking rally selection of tracks. Honestly we need more gt2-gt3 rally tracks.

 

[Imari]

I don't see why having top gear test track type of courses would be impossible. As long as the checkpoint system in place isn't bugged to all hell I think it'll be fine.

It wouldn't be impossible and I didn't say it would be. I said I don't expect it, because it's Polyphony and frankly the less expected the better. So far we're 18 months from release and we can't make a simple oval, so my expectations aren't high.

Also is there any reason as to why you are against trackmania style tracks? I mean if you don't like em don't download them. But it would hurt the cm if you were to limit the course creator like that.

Whereas it wouldn't hurt the game to have blatantly physically unrealistic tracks in them? Tracks that literally could not be driven with an even moderately realistic physics engine? Why don't we just strap machine guns to the cars and add boost pads while we're at it?

I'm all for people having the freedom to do what they want, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. For me, in a game like Gran Turismo I'd draw the line at "physically realistic". But I'm not making the game, so maybe you'll get your wish.

Although I just wish you'd go and play Trackmania instead. They already have a course maker for making Trackmania tracks in Trackmania. Why do we need another one in GT6?

P.S. I actually quite like Trackmania, it's pretty fun. But it's really, really far from Gran Turismo as a game.

I'm not saying we need loop de loops and the like but having the ability to make pretty slanted bends and turns and big ramps would be good for rally tracks for example. It would add a lot of variety imo to a lacking rally selection of tracks. Honestly we need more gt2-gt3 rally tracks.

So when I say Trackmania I'm thinking of stuff like this:



Whereas you're thinking about what sounds like basically a normal track. Which is fine. Banking on curves is fine. The odd jump within reason is fine. More rally tracks would be great.

Anything that would kill you in a real car is not fine. GT doesn't have a decent mechanical damage system to deal with this stuff. I want to see them get basic track making right first before they start going all Looney Tunes on us.

 

[research]

In this case, why doesn't PD just release course creator as a movie, seems it would be more fitting towards the odd hype it's getting.

PD saves all of their best work for those movie-style promo clips. You know, the ones where racecars sound like racecars? And even though time and time again they deceive in such a blatant manner, there are still thousands of fans out there screaming for the next iteration of Gran Turismo as if something positively different will happen!

Kryption, you may be onto something..

 

[Voodoovaj]

And so, as I mentioned, price drops start to happen and things start moving on the next Gen

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily

Expect a PS4 price drop soon, accompanied by a PS3 price drop and possible a special PS3 bundle.

Coincidentally, Kaz says that GT7 will come "before 2017" which means Christmas 2016 (assuming it doesn't slip)

Could this PS3 bundle have a more complete version of GT in it with a course creator? Mmmmmaybe

Better yet, Kaz has not denied the existence of TT2 which, if they follow the PS2 strategy, will be the last GT product on PS3.

Summer is going to get interesting.

 

[bremics]

And so, as I mentioned, price drops start to happen and things start moving on the next Gen

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily

Expect a PS4 price drop soon, accompanied by a PS3 price drop and possible a special PS3 bundle.

Coincidentally, Kaz says that GT7 will come "before 2017" which means Christmas 2016 (assuming it doesn't slip)

Could this PS3 bundle have a more complete version of GT in it with a course creator? Mmmmmaybe

Better yet, Kaz has not denied the existence of TT2 which, if they follow the PS2 strategy, will be the last GT product on PS3.

Summer is going to get interesting.

If it's taken nearly 2 years for the coursemaker to be completed because they were working on another game I'll be pissed as ****.

Either way both GT5 and GT6 confirmed that it's smarter too wait 2 years after release to get the complete game for less than half price.

So, GT7 won't be in complete form til late 2018 then.

 

[smskeeter23]

And so, as I mentioned, price drops start to happen and things start moving on the next Gen

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily

Expect a PS4 price drop soon, accompanied by a PS3 price drop and possible a special PS3 bundle.

Coincidentally, Kaz says that GT7 will come "before 2017" which means Christmas 2016 (assuming it doesn't slip)

Could this PS3 bundle have a more complete version of GT in it with a course creator? Mmmmmaybe

Better yet, Kaz has not denied the existence of TT2 which, if they follow the PS2 strategy, will be the last GT product on PS3.

Summer is going to get interesting.

I had that same thought not too long ago about a PS3 bundle.

 

[eran0004]

Better yet, Kaz has not denied the existence of TT2 which, if they follow the PS2 strategy, will be the last GT product on PS3.

I read his answer to the TT2 question as "maybe some day" rather than "it's something we're working on".

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I read his answer to the TT2 question as "maybe some day" rather than "it's something we're working on".

Precisely how I took it. No point ruling something out completely at any point in the future.

 

[interpunct]

It wouldn't be impossible and I didn't say it would be. I said I don't expect it, because it's Polyphony and frankly the less expected the better. So far we're 18 months from release and we can't make a simple oval, so my expectations aren't high.

Yes but that's a rather negative viewpoint of things. At the end of the day you should be hoping that they do a good job. This type of attitude in my opinion doesn't achieve anything other than being cynical over something that hasn't been released yet and we don't even know how it's going to work yet. If it's going to be modnation style or something a bit more basic à la ATV Offroad Fury 4 which was grid style.

Whereas it wouldn't hurt the game to have blatantly physically unrealistic tracks in them? Tracks that literally could not be driven with an even moderately realistic physics engine? Why don't we just strap machine guns to the cars and add boost pads while we're at it?

I'm all for people having the freedom to do what they want, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. For me, in a game like Gran Turismo I'd draw the line at "physically realistic". But I'm not making the game, so maybe you'll get your wish.

Although I just wish you'd go and play Trackmania instead. They already have a course maker for making Trackmania tracks in Trackmania. Why do we need another one in GT6?

P.S. I actually quite like Trackmania, it's pretty fun. But it's really, really far from Gran Turismo as a game.



Whereas you're thinking about what sounds like basically a normal track. Which is fine. Banking on curves is fine. The odd jump within reason is fine. More rally tracks would be great.

Anything that would kill you in a real car is not fine. GT doesn't have a decent mechanical damage system to deal with this stuff. I want to see them get basic track making right first before they start going all Looney Tunes on us.

See, I don't see the need for this condescending attitude. You're assuming a lot of stuff and even went as far as looking for an extreme example which is trackmania stadium when I was referring more to the type of experience valley and canyon offer rather than trackmania stadium. Sure those two other games have loop de loops and extreme hyper unrealistic tracks but I can clearly see the potential in having such a powerful editor in our hands.

You just changed the tone of my message when what I really wanted to say is that a editor like that would be very good because of the versatility it has. Not only do that means maybe remaking real tracks we have around the world but it also means having the option to even remake past tracks we've had in Gran Turismo's history. Tahiti, Pikes Peak, Smoky Mountain, El Capitan, New York, Opera, Seoul, and more. Your dismissive attitude is uncalled for. And I would like to play both games thank you very much. Half of these tracks won't be possible if we don't have a powerful editor. If we get just a grid style editor or a similarly simple one you can forget about all these things.


When I say Trackmania I'm thinking of stuff like this:

Specifically the first track they played in this video, the rest are standard unrealistic trackmania tracks.

Or stuff like this:

Specifically at the start of the video the clips with the orange car, and at 1:50.

Sure it has it's unrealistic jumps and gap jumps and loop de loops. But take those out and what do you really get in the end? You would get a really good editor capable of many things and pleasing everyone. Imagine all the good tracks we're going to get for any type of discipline?

These are just examples of what's possible with this system. I'm pretty sure you can guess that if I wanted to play trackmania styled tracks I would boot up TM the game right now. But that was never my point.

The thing is that the editors in TM is geared towards hot wheel styled tracks. But an editor geared towards realism in mind but at the same time having flexibility to design tracks however we realistically can with the versatility the TM editor has would prove invaluable to the GT series and would give it an edge over its competitors that so far is non-existent except for some PC racing sims which really aren't in direct competition with GT.

Being able to remake stuff like this gem from GT3 would be amazing:


Again, I want a versatile editor, not an unrealistic one. I thought that was a given because of what you wrote at the end of your reply but really some things you said were really out there and had no correlation with what my original message was.

 

[Imari]

Yes but that's a rather negative viewpoint of things. At the end of the day you should be hoping that they do a good job.

Wow, thanks for telling me what I should think. I'll get right on that.

Meanwhile, I'll tell you what I do think: I think I'll be hoping that they actually end up doing the job at all. After 18 months of extremely limited communication, I have no real reason to believe that it's not vapourware.

The scope of the project has changed several times already, and that was before the 18 month delay. I don't know whatever it is Famine knows, but my opinion is that they're probably still struggling to get it working at all. In which case we'll be lucky if we get anything.

See, I don't see the need for this condescending attitude.

I don't see the need for you to tell me what I mean by Trackmania style tracks. I don't see the need for you to tell me what my opinion should be at all.

If anything, I'm far better placed to know what my opinion is than you are.

 

[interpunct]

Wow, thanks for telling me what I should think. I'll get right on that.

It's weird you say these things yet this is completely valid for you:

Although I just wish you'd go and play Trackmania instead. They already have a course maker for making Trackmania tracks in Trackmania. Why do we need another one in GT6?

Wow, thanks for telling me what I should play. I'll get right on that.

I don't see the need for you to tell me what I mean by Trackmania style tracks. I don't see the need for you to tell me what my opinion should be at all.

If anything, I'm far better placed to know what my opinion is than you are.

Yes, yes, yet you felt like you needed to give a different context to my opinion to argue something that at the end wasn't even the point of my post.

The reason why I point out your condescending attitude is because I'm assuming you know I meant something else yet you felt a need to argue something else and were discourteous for no foreseeable reason.

Oh, and thanks for not addressing any of my points.

 

[Robbks]

Ok my take on it.
if the size of the 3d modelled CM landscape is 20x20km
and is located around Ronda that's a big area to work with.

All I want to be able to do is have a switchable 2D/3D View to be able to navigate the area and drop a track layout on the existing terrain, either freehand "pen" style, or a series of points that initially drop straight lines between them from which you can grab to pull/ push into corner shapes (think of simple curved line tool in MS paint....)
then you can go through it and change the width of the road, surface and all your cosmetic barriers/ signs, etc later.

if they've mapped out and rendered the town itself that would be totally awesome,
i can see some layouts using existing roads for an F1 style track,
then some really tight stuff for the drifters/ rally/ police pursuit stuff.

I'd be happy to just make different tracks in and around the existing roads....

 

[KiroKai]

And so, as I mentioned, price drops start to happen and things start moving on the next Gen

Better yet, Kaz has not denied the existence of TT2 which, if they follow the PS2 strategy, will be the last GT product on PS3.

You're saying it yourself, people are moving on or have moved on ages ago, it's not "starting to", current gen consoles have been out for 2 years. To say that the gaming world has changed and that general technology obsession has grown since the PS3's launch would be an understatement, people want to move on to new tech much quicker and those who can afford it do. The PS4 is not as expensive as the PS3 was at launch and it had a better image and sales vs. XB1 from the start. But Microsoft is about to announce its third Forza current gen title. How can you still expect a PS3 exclusive release?

The scope of the project has changed several times already, and that was before the 18 month delay. I don't know whatever it is Famine knows, but my opinion is that they're probably still struggling to get it working at all. In which case we'll be lucky if we get anything.

That's no opinion but rather an assumption, and following the few things Famine told us it's wrong:

As far as I'm aware though, there is no technological barrier that is preventing the Course Maker appearing on PS3.

I do agree with your point about this appearing to be vapourware, the past months I pretty much moved on from the idea of that promise being held. Famine's post in this thread gave me some hope again since he's fairly reputable, although it still makes no sense to me why it's such an understandable reason according to him, yet he won't tell it. PD don't feel the need to talk about this at all either, after 18 months I think we, the players and customers, are very much entitled to an explanation. Besides, the relevance of this game and console shrinked massively already and will continue to. It's already too late.

 

[TJC_69]

You're saying it yourself, people are moving on or have moved on ages ago, it's not "starting to", current gen consoles have been out for 2 years. To say that the gaming world has changed and that general technology obsession has grown since the PS3's launch would be an understatement, people want to move on to new tech much quicker and those who can afford it do. The PS4 is not as expensive as the PS3 was at launch and it had a better image and sales vs. XB1 from the start. But Microsoft is about to announce its third Forza current gen title. How can you still expect a PS3 exclusive release?

I do agree with your point about this appearing to be vapourware, the past months I pretty much moved on from the idea of that promise being held. Famine's post in this thread gave me some hope again since he's fairly reputable, although it still makes no sense to me why it's such an understandable reason according to him, yet he won't tell it. PD don't feel the need to talk about this at all either, after 18 months I think we, the players and customers, are very much entitled to an explanation. Besides, the relevancy of this game and console shrinked massively already and will continue to. It's already too late.

^^ This .

I don't see why mod(s) are allowed in on this secret unless there is some sort of incentive to keep quiet . Whatever that incentive may be .

WE also bought the game . Why aren't WE the consumer allowed in on the big secret ?

If mods are aware of the reason/s for delay of this feature then it belongs in the GTP News section .

Can just imagine Kaz going " Pssst , guess what ?? The course creator is delayed because ........... // Big Kaz Grin //
But ! If you ever tell them before we do , if we ever do , then you'll get less access to my GT World " // Kaz Chuckle //

There's NO reason for it not to be known

 

[nickg07]

If ps4 could do ps3 games with up scaled gfx gt6 would be selling more and still have a great user base and an incentive for PD to keep building the game and not rush GT7. Shame.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't know of any developer of any product that freely shares technical explanations for delays of this kind. It would be nice but I wouldn't expect it, I think most of us are more unhappy about feeling left in the dark. Releasing a few free premium cars as a "sorry about the course maker delay" pack would be a nice touch. Throw in a "we've got technical issues beyond our control but it's coming" and I think most people would be ok with that.

 

[bremics]

I don't know of any developer of any product that freely shares technical explanations for delays of this kind. It would be nice but I wouldn't expect it, I think most of us are more unhappy about feeling left in the dark. Releasing a few free premium cars as a "sorry about the course maker delay" pack would be a nice touch. Throw in a "we've got technical issues beyond our control but it's coming" and I think most people would be ok with that.

The cars would be nice, but I would be happy to hear anything.

Absolute silence is nerve-wracking.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

The cars would be nice, but I would be happy to hear anything.

Absolute silence is nerve-wracking.

I've got some interesting news regarding the course maker !

 

[Nico_Ble99]

I've got some interesting news regarding the course maker !

Tell me everything you know.

 

[Streeto]

I've got some interesting news regarding the course maker !

 

[fortbo]

I've got some interesting news regarding the course maker !

Thanks for making everyone in this thread even more anxious.

 

[iName]

Thanks for making everyone in this thread even more anxious.

That's was probabaly his plan

He's testing us

 

[fortbo]

Guys, guys, I know something about the Course Maker, and its awesome, but I can't tell you.

 

[apexpredator100]

I'm pretty sure he's joking.

 

[HyperSpeedGTS]

Just give us a touge track and more drift tracks like eibsu and ill be happy

 

[dogw10]

I'm still waiting.

 

[Mr Grumpy]

Tell me everything you know.

It'll be out soon

 

[Imari]

I'm still waiting.

You're becoming the Terminator! Keep waiting, I say, soon you'll have the badass Austrian accent and everything!

 

[MockngBrd]

I know something about the awesome news i'll tell the course maker!