So... you all ready for the draft?
- Thread starter milefile
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ledhed
Yes, we understand ledhed:
Though this is an unpopular election-year topic, military experts and influential members of Congress are suggesting that if Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard slog" in Iraq and Afghanistan [and a permanent state of war on "terrorism"] proves accurate, the US may have no choice but to draft.
ShobThaBob
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- rosooftw
Viper Zero
You're right, they shouldnt....which means that something is wrong when people ARE.
- 2,760
After reading this I punched in my computer screen and then puked all over myself.McLaren'sAngelHiya!
Meow! (='.'=)
I really hope there won't be a draft!
If Bush is going to draft...I dont wanna be draftedSo....Gentlemens first!
Smileys should be outlawed, and those who overuse them should be shot on sight.
Yes, I'm having a bad day.
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Don't you ever get tired of having a politically-themed avatar? Lighten up...have some fun.Viper Zero
- 650
Viper Zero
Yeah just give me a gun, someone to tell me where to shoot, and someone to shoot. No fear! Its for my country
- 7,889
- SolidFro
- RRoDzaaah!
Serving your country doesn't require a gun. You can sign up for the Red Cross, or the Coast Guard, or even a non-combat unit in any branch of the military.
Be thankful that the US has a volunteer military. Most countries around the world require service.
Be thankful that the US has a volunteer military. Most countries around the world require service.
- 12,993
- USA! USA!
I agree with this. I don't know what you do if a woman gets pregnant, though.Arwin
- 2,093
This is not a special situation - if a professional military becomes pregnant in any part of the world that has a professional army that allows women (which including the U.S. which has a pretty decent number of women these days), there's a procedure for how to deal with that.
What I also like about Sweden is that maternity leave can be divided between the father and the mother in whatever percentage that suits them best.
What I also like about Sweden is that maternity leave can be divided between the father and the mother in whatever percentage that suits them best.
- 10,832
Yeah. And maternity is one year, as mandated by the government. There is also no minimum time between periods of maternity leave, or if there is it's ridiculously short. So a woman, or couple, can get pregnant over and over and essentially never have to go to work throughout lfe, all the while being guaranteed an income.
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- GTP_Duke
Nope, I don't think there's any credit to them at all. Click here and read me.Arwin
[edit]
And on the subject of Sweden:
Sweden article #1
Sweden article #2 - this contains portions of the article I'm really looking for.
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milefile
Your Honour, no further comment.
@Neon Duke: interesting. I'm now reading up on Senator Hollins, an interesting man. Both Senators introducing each bill, were, indeed, Democrats. Thanks for correcting me, I guess my newspaper was right (as usual).
As for your links on Sweden though, I can only shake my head, I guess in the same manner as you guys must do whenever a European comes up with another ideologically driven misrepresentation of an aspect of the U.S.
EDIT: That second link is beneath anything I've seen in a long time though. Really incredible.
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Small reminder that eugenics control and compulsory sterilization, which I'm quite sure most of us toroughly disagree with, again has nothing to do with "evil socialism", and that Sweden is far from being the only country where it occured:
Compulsory sterilization
Compulsory sterilization
- 2,093
The first link is of some merit. But it is seriously flawed too. It lacks a lot of nuance. In my view, which I'm sure is shared by one or two other people, the turning point in 1991 was when the then prime minister asked for decreasing the rate of pay. The unions, which have been traditionally very powerful in Sweden, opposed this and he resigned as a result, because he knew he was right that tempering wages would be paramount to economic survival.
Of course this would include some cuts and costs, but that the welfare system went over the mark a little doesn't mean that it's inherently flawed. Say what you want but despite what the author claims, Sweden still has the least people living in poverty in its country in the world, and the US can be found pretty much on the other side of that list. In part it has been very successful by mobilising the female workforce, and the drop in birthrate has largely to do with this, not with anything else. Policies like allowing and now even obliging fathers to take up a part of the paternity leave are intended to help promote equal rights and opportunities in the workplace for men and women, and so far appear to be largely successful. I guess the US prides itself in it's 50 percent of mothers below 20, or the fact that its volunteer army works because there are enough poor people for whom it's the only means to get by, but hey. It's still a volunteer system and as a benefit it doesn't require any dirty tricks to keep senators children off the roster.
The fact is Sweden has been so successful that it's gotten a little too comfortable, but that's been recognised long ago. This 'socialist experiment' with private industry but a strong welfare system has been demonstrated to work, and will continue to stand in history books as the dawn of a new era.
I had a very interesting professor in the year I studied in Sweden. He was in part a phisolophy teacher and for the other part he trained professional athletes, skiers and such. He taught us the benefit of learning by studying a subject in any way but by looking directly at it. The weakness of the human mind is that once it has an idea, it tries to mold everything into it and sees everything the way it wants to see it. This article and the article I quoted elsewhere ( The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Voters - http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Report10_21_04.pdf ) are good examples of this danger.
Of course this would include some cuts and costs, but that the welfare system went over the mark a little doesn't mean that it's inherently flawed. Say what you want but despite what the author claims, Sweden still has the least people living in poverty in its country in the world, and the US can be found pretty much on the other side of that list. In part it has been very successful by mobilising the female workforce, and the drop in birthrate has largely to do with this, not with anything else. Policies like allowing and now even obliging fathers to take up a part of the paternity leave are intended to help promote equal rights and opportunities in the workplace for men and women, and so far appear to be largely successful. I guess the US prides itself in it's 50 percent of mothers below 20, or the fact that its volunteer army works because there are enough poor people for whom it's the only means to get by, but hey. It's still a volunteer system and as a benefit it doesn't require any dirty tricks to keep senators children off the roster.
The fact is Sweden has been so successful that it's gotten a little too comfortable, but that's been recognised long ago. This 'socialist experiment' with private industry but a strong welfare system has been demonstrated to work, and will continue to stand in history books as the dawn of a new era.
I had a very interesting professor in the year I studied in Sweden. He was in part a phisolophy teacher and for the other part he trained professional athletes, skiers and such. He taught us the benefit of learning by studying a subject in any way but by looking directly at it. The weakness of the human mind is that once it has an idea, it tries to mold everything into it and sees everything the way it wants to see it. This article and the article I quoted elsewhere ( The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Voters - http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Report10_21_04.pdf ) are good examples of this danger.
- 10,832
Have you ever heard of "Dasien"? Understanding something by considering everything but the the thing you want to understand is absolutely absurd.
Self-deciet? You have got to be kidding me.
Examples....
I need to get a job. I think I'll go to the beach.
I like that girl. I'll ask a different girl out.
How do I do math? I think I'll read some poetry.
Please give me one example of considering "everything" (do you really mean every thing?) besides what you want to understand working.
Self-deciet? You have got to be kidding me.
Examples....
I need to get a job. I think I'll go to the beach.
I like that girl. I'll ask a different girl out.
How do I do math? I think I'll read some poetry.
Please give me one example of considering "everything" (do you really mean every thing?) besides what you want to understand working.
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milefile
I'm exaggerating, the professor actually said everything next to, but not the subject itself. The subject is reflected in the things next to it, and will show its true nature through that reflection more clearly and subjectively than by looking at it directly.
But yes, the difference between focus and self-deceit is small, when with focus you feel safe by only looking at the traffic coming from up ahead and not the traffic coming form the side.
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- GTP_Duke
I'm actually looking for the text of an article called "Sweden: A Nightmare Of Socialism", portions of which are quoted in that second article. It is written by Magnus Kempe, a Swedish software engineer who grew up in Sweden before moving to Switzerland. He actually lived there, meaning that he is qualified to discuss the situation due to first-hand experience. I've contacted him requesting the full text, and if he shares it with me, I will post it here.
- 10,832
Arwin
So you are talking about a "panoramic perspective". Fair enough. That's beneficial. But you can only look at one thing at a time. When you have satisfied your looking you must make decisions.
I know that three is three because it is immediately precede by two and four. But I wanted to know about three. Eventually I am forced back to three because that's what I originally asked about. Anything else is distraction.
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neon_duke
I *actually lived there* for one whole year 8 years ago. Jag prater Svenska också (I also speak Swedish fairly decently, feel free to have that verified). My ex-girlfriend for two years and still one of my best friends is Swedish and lived there for 30 years until 2001. If you want to know some stuff that really bothers here about Sweden, I'm sure she's happy to oblige. But to apply something like 'nightmare of socialism' to this country is hilarious.
Certainly the US and Sweden will benefit more from learning from each other by actually studying each other than engage in pompous ideological chit-chat that's supposed to prove socialist ideas like wellfare are a lousy or a good idea. Sweden is now getting the treatment that the Netherlands have gotten among others from the US (as well as France for that matter) over its drug policies during McCarthy's tour of Europe. Everything was done to prove to the homeland that the Dutch policy suggested by some parties in the US was the wrong way to go, because oh my goodness look at the Netherlands, a country so ridden by crime, who'd want to live under those dire circumstances?
Danoff
Premium
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- Mile High City
This thread was around in 2004, and I had some rather choice words in it at the time. So you're asking about me from back then, I have posts on the topic.
So let's discuss the draft. Why do you think a draft is necessary. I think I know why you think it should be men who are drafted - but why do you (seem to) consider military servitude to be some kind of intrinsic element of manhood?
- 2,430
- The failed experiment entitled “California”.
Not that I’m dodging the intricacies of your question (it’s just that politics isn’t nearly high enough on my priority list to discuss in detail, via 2 fingers…nor am I trying to change anyone’s mind to see it my way in the least bit) but in the simplest terms I can conjure up mentally, every emergency service I can think of has some sort of mechanism for all its able-workers to return to work in the event of major, various circumstances and emergencies. The United States as the strongest word super power, 110% needs that same mechanism as a “just in case” we need to wage major wars abroad or domestically, with 6-8 weeks time.
I never once mentioned that military servitude or service, should be intrinsic to someone’s manhood. What I actually recall saying is that one’s significance into their respective man/womanhood’s is in the eye of the beholder…or something to that degree.
The way I see it, the world needs poets, artists and Betas as much as it needs Navy Seals. Both (and everything in between) are needed for a balanced society.
And in regards to war, battle, athleticism, strength, and everything else that goes with competitive sports or physical adversity, a man will out perform a woman 9 times out of 10. That’s who we need protecting this country, and our society. Alpha Men, and Alpha women (whom are willing to throw their hat in the ring)
Now speaking out of both sides of my mouth..
I also do truly believe that a person doesn’t realize their full potential, unless their forced, or their life is in danger (and that’s where Darwinism comes into play)
You take a poll of women from 18-40 years old, I guaran-friggin-tee that 98% would have zero interest in voluntarily signing up for a draft, in the United States of America.
I would also say that this day and age in America, you’d get substantial numbers of young men who wouldn’t want to do it if given the choice either.
But hey, if their was a necessity to activate a draft for a war; Men are much better suited for that job, and women are much better suited in Western culture to hold down the fort at home
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Scaff
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- ScaffUK
That's not a draft, it's military recall and it already exists.
Alpha, beta, etc. aren't real. Basing your argument on a false premise isn't a good place to start.
The 'Alpha Male' Myth
The Alpha Male has been the idealized male in mainstream culture for decades.
goodmenproject.com
As has also been said in the other thread, the military isn't just about 'meat for the grinder' strength, as such an argument to that effect is one to another myth.
Basing an argument on numbers you pull out of the air does not help build a solid case either.
Citation required, and not one based on just a GOP wet-dream of gender stereotypes.
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- 2,430
- The failed experiment entitled “California”.
Or you can expand on your own personal experience on why my assumptions are false.That's not a draft, it's military recall and it already exists.
Alpha, beta, etc. aren't real. Basing your argument on a false premise isn't a good place to start.
The 'Alpha Male' Myth
The Alpha Male has been the idealized male in mainstream culture for decades.
As has also been said in the other thread, the military isn't just about 'meat for the grinder' strength, as such an argument to that effect is one to another myth.
Basing an argument on numbers you pull out of the air does not help build a solid case either.
Citation required, and not one based on just a GOP wet-dream of gender stereotypes.
If we’re splitting hairs, I’ll give you that my numbers are just an educated-hypothetical guess.
But to be frank, I’m not interested in “articles” that supposedly debunk real life first-hand experience that I’ve lived
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