Sobering Thoughts About "The Definitive Racing Simulator"

[JAGUAR1977]

I've been playing Forza 3 for the past week and features/content wise it's exactly what I'd expect of GT5 if it was released 12 months after GT5P.

Obviously the graphics aren't upto GT5's standards, though certainly not shabby, but that is more than made up for with the engine sounds and great paint shop.

I've spent almost as much time searching for replica race liveries for my favourite cars as driving!

 

[GTjazzabrandy]

Yes, we can only criticize GT5 on a Gran Turismo board.

We can't discuss

• Forza 2 and 3's tire grip quirks, or their horrible sounds.
• The issues still with the livery editor and the car models.
• The issues with car model flaws which have carried over from Forza 2!
• The file bogging issues if you have anywhere near 100 pics, decals, liveries, replays...
• The ancient driver views from the 90s.
• The ruin of Forza 2's online system.

And I could go on. It's really funny to have people picking on about GT5's engine notes and how the bots look during shifting, and then these same people giving Forza pass after pass on much more substantial flaws...

And guess what? I'm hoping to have the mental energy after 11 hours at work to stay awake long enough to paint on a car. The batteries are recharging tight now - and that's another thing, M$'s stupid wireless system and how battery hungry it is.

I don't know when I'll take a pic, because it literally takes hours and HOURS to do something which even in GT4 might require less than half an hour to do. Start a race, save the replay, snap some pics, and transfer the images to my PC with a USB drive, post to my online galleries and share with y'all. And not just 18 at a time. And no paying for the privilege of online access.

Forza 3? Perfect! Yeah, right...

I don't know how you can post here, you a self proclaimed GT fanboy!

 

[kekke2000]

Is this how gamers were back in the days. Were people complaining about small flaws in Super Mario Bros or Sonic or any other 80's title? I think we look for flaws. We should take the good parts and talk about them. That would make the games more enjoyable to play. Which is what GTPlanet did back in the days. Now it's only whine whine whine. I hope that changes when GT5 hit the shelves!! At least I won't look for flaws. Probably won't even be at GT Planet for a while to get some GT5 experience.

(BTW Forza 3 is an ok game!)

 

[LaBounti]

Sorry but standards have changes as we progress in technology and developments. By today's dollar value SNES games would have been closer to $100, And we are talking about games with budgets less than 1million dollars and 2-3 hours of total game play (Super Contra?, Starfox?)

We are all spoiled gamers compared to the past.

Edit: Find a gamer that doesnt know what a "Jaggie" is. No one cares until you point it out. All of a Sudden Daytona U.S.A arcade looks awful but when it came out we all could live with 496 x 384 x 60 graphics, And no one complained about jaggies, not ever until anti aliasing became available outside of CGI workstations. N64 was first console to have it. PS2 kinda had but not in hardware, DC had it Xbox had it. Now PS2 games were considered jaggy messes.... But wait, Even the mighty 360 and PS3 have no full time AA. even if its consider "free" on the 360, its clearly not. So I'm just ranting and this has nothing to do with anything Gamers will complain about something, like the in cars view in FM3 being broken.......

Its still a good game.

 

[Eric.]

I'm trying to find the 90s arcade racing games that had fully modeled interior views. I believe I missed a large part of my childhood. And no, its not fully modeled when its a rotating steering wheel and working gauges placed on top of a static image of a dashboard. Where would you like to be driving from? Looking out the window of the ISS, from an alien computer sixteen levels underground in Area 51? Yeah, the default camera view is closer than it should be, but we know how to change that...

 

[drivatar]

I'm trying to find the 90s arcade racing games that had fully modeled interior views.

Virtua Racing

http://www.flickr.com/photos/racketboy/515186952/

 

[LaBounti]

Virtua Racing, ah yes.

Eric some cars look fine while others are funny, its inconsistent. I know of the "hack" to change it but they should make it a real option. They could have just copied Shifts perfect perspective but they were to focused on topping GT.

 

[Shokz]

Here's my thinking:

Forza 2 < GT5P < Forza 3 < GT5

(or at least from what i've seen of GT5 so far)

@ LaBounti - Just saying, but ever since i was about ten i've been annoyed about jaggies. They annoyed me playing PS2 games and now they annoy me playing PS3 and 360 games, which is exactly why i get games on PC whenever they're not console specific. I know i shouldn't really care, but i do...

 

[Terronium-12]

Here's my thinking:

Forza 2 < GT5P < Forza 3 < GT5

(or at least from what i've seen of GT5 so far)

@ LaBounti - Just saying, but ever since i was about ten i've been annoyed about jaggies. They annoyed me playing PS2 games and now they annoy me playing PS3 and 360 games, which is exactly why i get games on PC whenever they're not console specific. I know i shouldn't really care, but i do...

Just out of curiosity, have you ever played Forza?

 

[Eric.]

And have you ever played GT5? Because it could play like ****. Particularly when its going to be compared directly to a Forza 4 by the look of things. Just as fair to compare GT5 to a Forza 4 released a year later as it is to compare Forza 3 to a GT released a year later.

 

[GTjazzabrandy]

And have you ever played GT5? Because it could play like ****. Particularly when its going to be compared directly to a Forza 4 by the look of things. Just as fair to compare GT5 to a Forza 4 released a year later as it is to compare Forza 3 to a GT released a year later.

Yeah, but we can assume that's not going to happen.

 

[Shokz]

Have I ever played Forza? No, but i've played (and own) Forza 2 and Forza 3.

Sorry, but did you have to ask that question? Is it so surprising that someone actually thinks Forza 3 is a reasonable game that you assume that they obviously haven't played it?

And did the other guy have to ask if I've ever played GT5? My God, I even gave a disclaimer saying FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN SO FAR. It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate what you see and experience playing GT5P using the various news articles, videos, screenshots, comparisons and the Time Trial Demo to know roughly where GT5 is going...

 

[Terronium-12]

Have I ever played Forza? No, but i've played (and own) Forza 2 and Forza 3.

Sorry, but did you have to ask that question? Is it so surprising that someone actually thinks Forza 3 is a reasonable game that you assume that they obviously haven't played it?

And did the other guy have to ask if I've ever played GT5? My God, I even gave a disclaimer saying FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN SO FAR. It doesn't take a genius to extrapolate what you see and experience playing GT5P using the various news articles, videos, screenshots, comparisons and the Time Trial Demo to know roughly where GT5 is going...

Look around the forum and take note of all of the senseless Forza bashing, and then you tell me.

 

[newbielives]

I knew something was wrong with Forza3 when I was playing it with all aids off on my MS Wheel, SOOOOO GLAD I didnt cough up the big bucks for a 911 wheel with clutch and H Shifter
In the end Forza3 is just a very fun arcade racer with a hint of simulation

No kidding, I still cant believe they havnt fixed the active steering aid.





Sobering indeed. Simulation killer.

 

[Terronium-12]

I knew something was wrong with Forza3 when I was playing it with all aids off on my MS Wheel, SOOOOO GLAD I didnt cough up the big bucks for a 911 wheel with clutch and H Shifter
In the end Forza3 is just a very fun arcade racer with a hint of simulation

Granted, there are some annoyances with the physics (i.e. the braking distances are off, there's an oversteer bias, and, the LMP-class vehicles are practically impossible to drive with a controller without TCS enabled...) but I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "very fun arcade racer..." It does plenty well, and then there are some things it just fuffs up.

Oh, and the AI can be retarded at times. That has nothing to do with you, just a personal gripe.

 

[ShiNaughty]

I know a lot of you guys can't stand Forza, and some seem it's the best game ever.... I own both the GT5 PROLOGUE and Forza 3. At least Forza has come out. I work at a game store, and the look on customers faces when I tell them GT5 has been pushed back AGAIN sucks. I know it's going to be a great game, maybe the best ever, but the fact that Forza is out, is an indication. It may not be polished like GT5 is hopefully going to be, but we can PLAY it! I have a blast playing both games. Both seem about the same to me so far. And I know GT5 is going to have a NASCAR game to it as well as WRC, but don't be bashing Forza. If you want something real, go join your local SCCA club, cause I'm sure there is one near you. Get a job, make some money, and build you a REAL car! I can't wait for GT5, always been a fan since the first. each developer can make something better.... and they will. Til then, just play and have fun!

 

[12thgear]

I know a lot of you guys can't stand Forza, and some seem it's the best game ever.... I own both the GT5 PROLOGUE and Forza 3. At least Forza has come out. I work at a game store, and the look on customers faces when I tell them GT5 has been pushed back AGAIN sucks. I know it's going to be a great game, maybe the best ever, but the fact that Forza is out, is an indication. It may not be polished like GT5 is hopefully going to be, but we can PLAY it! I have a blast playing both games. Both seem about the same to me so far. And I know GT5 is going to have a NASCAR game to it as well as WRC, but don't be bashing Forza. If you want something real, go join your local SCCA club, cause I'm sure there is one near you. Get a job, make some money, and build you a REAL car! I can't wait for GT5, always been a fan since the first. each developer can make something better.... and they will. Til then, just play and have fun!

If you work in a game store, then the GT5 delays are just a great opportunity to sell other games, or even an Xbox 360 in the meantime.

All signs point to GT5 being brilliant and coming out around Fall. Surely your customers can afford another game or two between now and then. Get selling!

 

[Clark]

I've just had my H-Gate fanatec shifter fixed so I've started using my wheel again, and after playing both FM3 and GT5 back to back again I can say a few things.

1) I don't find the cars anywhere near as satisfying to drive in Forza, as the front ends of the cars don't react very realistically to steering inputs. FWD cars are boring to drive, even on tracks like Kaido, as they understeer and there's no real steering feel compared to FWD on GT5

2) Another big gripe is the fact that I've always noticed on FM3 is that there is too much grip, this makes driving quite boring and un-challenging compared to GT5P. One example is that it takes no skill what so-ever to correct a very big slide in a RWD car.

Mainly it seems that (mainly thanks to the steering aid/dampening and the tyres having too much grip), Forza 3 has the potential to be a very good simulator, but as has been said before, is engineered more to 'Simcade' and the use of a controller.

Great for many, but not for me. I tend to get bored after a bit on FM as many of the cars feel the same. E.g. Most FWD cars feel identical but are just different speeds.

 

[TBR 427]

I've just had my H-Gate fanatec shifter fixed so I've started using my wheel again, and after playing both FM3 and GT5 back to back again I can say a few things.

1) I don't find the cars anywhere near as satisfying to drive in Forza, as the front ends of the cars don't react very realistically to steering inputs. FWD cars are boring to drive, even on tracks like Kaido, as they understeer and there's no real steering feel compared to FWD on GT5

2) Another big gripe is the fact that I've always noticed on FM3 is that there is too much grip, this makes driving quite boring and un-challenging compared to GT5P. One example is that it takes no skill what so-ever to correct a very big slide in a RWD car.

Mainly it seems that (mainly thanks to the steering aid/dampening and the tyres having too much grip), Forza 3 has the potential to be a very good simulator, but as has been said before, is engineered more to 'Simcade' and the use of a controller.

Great for many, but not for me. I tend to get bored after a bit on FM as many of the cars feel the same. E.g. Most FWD cars feel identical but are just different speeds.

That's the steering buffer.

I still don't know why there isn't an option to kill it, at the very least for the wheel users. I mean,it wouldn't even be that big of a patch.

From what I can tell, the physics behind the cars is sort of alright (the body movement is a bit iffy and so is the smooth ride around the ring in a GT-One, but on the whole it's decent). But both of those issues you're having could be solved if T10 released a little, maybe 10kb patch that just allowed that bloody nuisance of a 'feature' to be disabled.

 

[Rage0329]

Graphics are pretty important given the level of technology we have available to us these days. It's part of the immersion, the feeling that gets you into the game. If Forza during gameplay looked as good as the photo-mode renders did, it'd be an entirely different experience. Sure gameplay is important, but so is graphics to go with it, hand in hand. No one buys a Wii for the graphics right? 480P? That's the same resolution as my mobile phone.

I tried Forza for the original Xbox and thought it was disgusting. Just didn't do it for me, everything felt wrong. So I never tried Forza 2. Forza 3 I bought cause I was literally bored, but it was good. Forza 3 is entertaining and fun, I'm up to 40% completion now after the Xbox360 Transfer System killed my 88% completion game. But there's just some things wrong about the game that makes it feel like it has no soul.

The steering assist, the excessive amount of grip cars seem to have, recovering from a spin is easy, the car doesn't spin when you slip one wheel onto dirt / grass, no body roll (except visual body roll when you're in cockpit view), etc. It's like someone got a brush with realism glaze or sprinkled realism over an arcade racer. Still, that aside it doesn't detract from the fun that can be had. You've just got to take the game less seriously than you would GT.

 

[Terronium-12]

Graphics are pretty important given the level of technology we have available to us these days. It's part of the immersion, the feeling that gets you into the game. If Forza during gameplay looked as good as the photo-mode renders did, it'd be an entirely different experience. Sure gameplay is important, but so is graphics to go with it, hand in hand. No one buys a Wii for the graphics right? 480P? That's the same resolution as my mobile phone.

Graphics are in no way, shape, or form as important as gameplay. Again, I'm still playing N64, SNES, and PS games because the capitalize on gameplay and replay value. If I want mind-numbing graphic detail, I'll play Crysis or F.E.A.R on my PC with all the settings maxed out. Yes, graphics are an important factor of any game, and yes, it does add to the immersion...but it doesn't go hand-in-hand with gameplay whatsoever. This isn't an attack on you by the way, I'm just growing tired of graphics being mentioned before anything else.

When it comes to Forza I'd rather complain about things that matter, such as the lack of active aerodynamic animations, the modeling of suspension components...because as it stands now the wheels are being driven by a tremendous amount of kinetic energy (flip any vehicle over and you'll see what I'm talking about).

And when I buy a Wii, it'll be because I need to play Twilight Princess (and the forthcoming LoZ title), Metroid Prime 3, The Other M, and the wealth of classic titles available. The Wii has a lot more going for it then people ever give it credit for.

 

[Rage0329]

That's right, you'll buy a Wii for those games because of the gameplay and it continues with characters / story you like right? BUT... if it came in 1080P it'd be better right!?



It really comes down to the genre of the game I think and what people will tolerate. Wii Bowling certainly doesn't need to be better than 480P. However something like Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter wouldn't cut it in 480P. I think people generally want their car racing games to be visually attractive and appealing. Some of those high-res screenshots from Forza and GT5 screenies are nothing short of car-porn basically. They just look that damn good. Sight is probably the sense that is the easiest to treat. Sound would be next. Touch, taste and smell are pretty hard for a game to deal with (maybe in a few years time).

For some people graphics aren't a big deal. I personally will tone down the graphics on a game just to make it playable cause my PC is about 8 years old. However if I had the PC to play it on maximum graphics settings I certainly wouldn't lower it. For me graphics is a large part of the enjoyment too. Just looking at how awesome the GT-R and Viper look in the gravure mode of GT5, breath-taking. Thank you to www.illuminatelabs.com for their awesome tech.

But you're right in the sense that Forza does have more telling flaws which many people have already mentioned. It just means that Turn 10 has room to improve on their next product. Some good lighting technology is a must.

 

[HLRJigsaw]

Graphics are not the only factor in a good game but they are a factor. A game could be a really good looking POS.

FM is not without it's problems as listed a million times on a million websites. TT has delivered 2 full games this gen and PD has delivered 1 1/4 of a game.

 

[tyl0r_r]

That's right, you'll buy a Wii for those games because of the gameplay and it continues with characters / story you like right? BUT... if it came in 1080P it'd be better right!?

Graphics can be a big deal for a lot of people. Good graphics make a game look better but they don't make the actual game (which by I and I think he meant gameplay) any better. That's why playing Scrabble with the wooden board vs. pc version with animation and effects are both a boring experience (sorry, Scrabble fans).

If Mario Galaxy (to use my fav Wii title as an example) were 1080P it'd look better, but as a game it wouldn't be any better.

Case in point: almost everyone prefers the original NES Super Mario Bros. to the SNES Mario All Stars collection remake with enhanced graphics.

How it looks and how it plays are utterly separate, I think was his point. And I agree!

And @ Terronium-12: If you have classic gaming love add the Wii remake of Punch-Out!! to that list! I picked it up release day and it might be the best example of what the Wii is about: classic game play, functional motion control, great graphics (and not just for a Wii game), and more than anything: FUN!

 

[Joey D]

Graphics seem like they are only important to newer gamers. Those of us who grew up in the days of Nintendo, Sega Genesis, or even the old school Atari seem not to be phased by it. Really if it looks good enough I don't see a problem with it. Forza looks excellent and I have no complaints other then some of the interiors are a bit weak compared with other interiors in the game but whatever.

Way to make developers are putting their resources into making games look good instead of play good, or even worse instead of making a good story in something like an RPG. I really wish people wouldn't make such a huge freakin deal about the way a game looks and instead focus on it's entertainment value.

 

[newbielives]

High definition really aren't that important.
I'm currently playing Shenmue 2 backwards on 360 and wow it's still one hell of a game that will probably never be replicated again.

 

[drivatar]

For racing games graphics is an important part of the gameplay, especially the frame rate.

This is where Forza scores: Very very stable, v-synced 60fps. 👍
According to what I've seen so far GT5 won't provide this.

 

[YSSMAN]

The steering assist, the excessive amount of grip cars seem to have, recovering from a spin is easy, the car doesn't spin when you slip one wheel onto dirt / grass, no body roll (except visual body roll when you're in cockpit view), etc.

Wow, you must not have played around much with the Datsun 510 and the Bugatti EB110.

 

[Terronium-12]

Or any car for that matter. I don't know where all of the excessive grip claims are coming from...I've seen none of that while I'm playing. Pretty much every car will step out if you don't keep a certain amount of throttle applied.

 

[Rage0329]

Yeah I really don't know about Forza, I just find it incredibly forgiving and I don't mean the rewind feature. With my DFP in GT5rologue, if I take the '06 Viper or '06 Vette out, no aids, and you're driving...

If one of your drive wheels comes into contact with the grass as you're coming out of a corner, you spin out. It just doesn't happen in Forza, it's like HUH!? "Thanks for watching out for me up there!"